If I wanted a 'radio-tuning' game I would have rather bought an old radio.

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Yes, but I think FDev were left with little choice when it came to exploration tools. Given how many committed explorers were/may have been engaged in long term exploration when sweeping technological changes magically manifest across the known galaxy, the only other option for the FSS was to ensure it weighed and drew the same power at the lowest point of any possible existing DS to ensure carefully crafted builds didn't implode. Doing what they did was probably the easiest, and opened up a valuable slot for small/med exploration ships. Opening the FSS up to engineering could rebalance the lack of outfitting choices.

I think FDev should have bitten the bullet on the 'explorers being out in the black' issue. If they'd announced that there would be significant changes a month in advance and given players the option of a one-time teleport back to their starting system they'd have been able to be a lot more creative in how they approached the new exploration.

Given that the FSS currently does everything and has infinite range, I'm not sure how engineering options could be retrofitted in.

 

[Stigbob]

I think FDev should have bitten the bullet on the 'explorers being out in the black' issue. If they'd announced that there would be significant changes a month in advance and given players the option of a one-time teleport back to their starting system they'd have been able to be a lot more creative in how they approached the new exploration.

Given that the FSS currently does everything and has infinite range, I'm not sure how engineering options could be retrofitted in.

FDEV's method seems a lot less draconian. The bonus slot also opens more ships as viable explorers.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I really don't know why people are so OTT about this. I just honk and if it doesn't say "system scan completed" (i.e. only stars here, go away) I open the FSS - there in plain view are all the signals, I can see if there is an ammonia world (no confusing brown HMC), WW (no confusing with misty HMC) or ELW. Now I can get a detailed surface scan of any body anywhere in the system, no matter how far away, without moving.

I can even tell if a system is "virgin" on arrival as the scanner is populated with some things if there are tagged bodies.

The time-sink is mapping. Not the mapping itself per se but the time it takes to go from one body to map another (feels like flying through toffee at times ).

I assume that the surface-scan (FSS zoom) is now worth less than the previous incarnation but the vast increase in bodies scanned (due to not travelling) coupled with the huge rewards that mapping the "cherries" gives must surely be welcome.


P.S. I preferred the old "honk and see pretty images" but there are advantages to the new system and we have had it implemented so might as well get on and adapt to it.

I liked the old time-sink of flying around to discover the details of the system.

I'd rather have the option of NOT knowing if there are ELWs etc in the system, but be able assess probabilities from limited information (mass, temperature, orbital radius) and the fly to those bodies I determine could be interesting.

The FSS is a step in the wrong direction for me.

 

[Ethaidan]

I mostly agree, however the original plan (ie what we saw in the first beta) was the FSS implemented as a module. The idea of not requiring players to return to port made replacing the ADS (or IDS/BDS) a reasonable solution.

However once the FSS became an integrated, zero mass component with no power consumption there was no longer any justification for removing the old modules - they could (and should) have been left in place, as if the FSS had always been intended to be an integrated scanner as with the others (Comp Scanner etc).

I don't think that mass and power consumption ever figured into FDevs reasons for removing the ADS - it was always going to be removed/replaced, they just chose a different path (integrating it and leaving an empty slot rather than replacing all DSs with a low weight/low power FSS). The ADS was removed so it could be replaced with a module that was integral to a newly designed phase of exploration - system-discovery - which previously did not exist at all, because the ADS did it instantly. So the justification for removing it remains unchanged.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

FDEV's method seems a lot less draconian. The bonus slot also opens more ships as viable explorers.

Sometimes you have to make serious changes for the good of the game as a whole.

I've suggested elsewhere that exploration scanners should be submodules of the base core scanner, with larger class scanners having more sub-slots. That way any ship could explore, but only the larger ships would be able to do everything. It would also allow FDev to introduce the unicorn that is the 'dedicated exploration ship' and make that the only one able to fit all submodules.

 

[Old Duck]

So, bubble-huggers looking for materials, scenarios, or Thargoids, engineer it to resolve low-frequency signals. Explorers looking for GGs with interesting moon configurations, engineer to resolve all those rocky & Icy moons and use the FSS for the GGs. Explorers looking for quick cash, engineer it to resolve ELWs, AWs, & WWs. Etc.

Define "resolve".

 

[Para Handy]

I liked the old time-sink of flying around to discover the details of the system.

............

... but you never had to come to a halt to get the detailed surface scan - with the mapping system you have to be a min speed. Therefore the initial acceleration after mapping is much slower than moving on from say half-throttle in the old system. So that is why it feels so slow to me but as I said, the mapping payouts I suppose compensate.

 

[Stigbob]

Sometimes you have to make serious changes for the good of the game as a whole.

That's exactly what the new system is.

I've suggested elsewhere that exploration scanners should be submodules of the base core scanner, with larger class scanners having more sub-slots. That way any ship could explore, but only the larger ships would be able to do everything. It would also allow FDev to introduce the unicorn that is the 'dedicated exploration ship' and make that the only one able to fit all submodules.

That would restrict player choice which is always a bad idea. Its also a completely different direction to the one they've chosen and couldn't be implemented without messing about everyone currently out exploring with FSS's now or planning to in smaller ships. So its extremely unlikely to get anywhere.

 

[Ethaidan]

I think FDev should have bitten the bullet on the 'explorers being out in the black' issue. If they'd announced that there would be significant changes a month in advance and given players the option of a one-time teleport back to their starting system they'd have been able to be a lot more creative in how they approached the new exploration.

Given that the FSS currently does everything and has infinite range, I'm not sure how engineering options could be retrofitted in.

Ya, part of me really agrees with that - I've advocated for similar 'bite the bullet' approaches to making sweeping changes to other aspects of the game, so they could have for exploration. However, doing what they did with the FSS does potentially allow for that in the future. They've integrated the most basic necessary tool for exploration - the one that enables explorers to discover the components of any system, so they've not crippled anyone on an expedition. By freeing up a slot, they also have room for another new optional exploration module.

 

[Ethaidan]

Define "resolve".

Add it to the system map following the initial system honk - just like the ADS did (and FSS does through scanning), but frequency range and distance limited by engineering choice - so you can get a specific little bit of the old ADS.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

That's exactly what the new system is.

Here's where we disagree. I think dumbing down and over-simplifying the game is a bad idea.

That would restrict player choice which is always a bad idea. Its also a completely different direction to the one they've chosen and couldn't be implemented without messing about everyone currently out exploring with FSS's now or planning to in smaller ships. So its extremely unlikely to get anywhere.

Player choice is restricted in every other area:
Can't fit huge weapons to a Sidewinder
Can't fit 7 utilities to a Cobra III
Can't fit 6 cargo slots in a Viper IV
Can't fit some of the new mining tools on a T6

Why should exploration tools be different?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

They've integrated the most basic necessary tool for exploration - the one that enables explorers to discover the components of any system, so they've not crippled anyone on an expedution. By freeing up a slot, they also have room for another new optional exploration module.

The FSS isn't the 'most basic necessary tool', since it gives you ALL the information about the system with the exception of the exact location of persistent POIs - but it does tell you which planets they're on. It's a hugely overpowered tool (even more so than the ADS) and I think you're being overly optimistic if you believe that any additional functionality required for exploration will not be rolled into the FSS, DSS or the composition scanner thing.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Here's where we disagree. I think dumbing down and over-simplifying the game is a bad idea.



Player choice is restricted in every other area:
Can't fit huge weapons to a Sidewinder
Can't fit 7 utilities to a Cobra III
Can't fit 6 cargo slots in a Viper IV
Can't fit some of the new mining tools on a T6

Why should exploration tools be different?

Exploration Tools:

Discovery Scanner - Now Integrated Into All Ships.
Detailed Suface Scanner - it's a size 1 and can fit on any ship.
Composition Scanner - Part of every ship.

Frame Shift Drive - Has always been part of every ship.

That's it. That's all you ABSOLUTELY must have. Everything else is simply an amenity, even a fuel scoop, though you won't go terribly far without one - though it is still possible to rack up enough in credits within inhabited systems to reach Elite in exploration, this it is not a MUST HAVE exploration tool.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Exploration Tools:

Discovery Scanner - Now Integrated Into All Ships.
Detailed Suface Scanner - it's a size 1 and can fit on any ship.
Composition Scanner - Part of every ship.

Frame Shift Drive - Has always been part of every ship.

That's it. That's all you ABSOLUTELY must have. Everything else is simply an amenity, even a fuel scoop, though you won't go terribly far without one - though it is still possible to rack up enough in credits within inhabited systems to reach Elite in exploration, this it is not a MUST HAVE exploration tool.

Yes, that's the point I was making, in response to Stigbob saying that limiting player choice is a bad thing.

Right now it 'costs' almost nothing to rig a ship for exploration, whereas every other profession is limited in some manner. Exploration should have been limited too.

 

[Riverside]

I don't think that mass and power consumption ever figured into FDevs reasons for removing the ADS - it was always going to be removed/replaced, they just chose a different path (integrating it and leaving an empty slot rather than replacing all DSs with a low weight/low power FSS). The ADS was removed so it could be replaced with a module that was integral to a newly designed phase of exploration - system-discovery - which previously did not exist at all, because the ADS did it instantly. So the justification for removing it remains unchanged.

The justification for removing it went away with the integration of the FSS. I think in logical terms you are putting the cart before the horse, effectively saying the ADS (etc) was removed because it was going to be removed.

In order to avoid any player already away from port being affected their ship needed to be no worse off - no extra mass or power. Replacing one module with another (the original plan) required that one be removed to make room for the other. No other gameplay requirements, it was just about not making any ship worse.

Integrating the FSS obviously still met that requirement to not make ships worse, but at that point the removal of the old modules was no longer either required or justified. Any player would then have the option to continue as before while taking advantage of the FSS Scanner Screen to DSS distant objects. The transition would be both smoother and optional with no downside.

The plan as implemented contained a step (the removal of the old stuff) that became unjustified, the only thing it has done is to create frustration. I don't believe FDev deliberately intended to create this frustration, so the obvious solution is to put the old modules back into the game.

It is now too late to just reinstate players loadouts, but the ADS/IDS/BDS can be put back into outfitting as modules to purchase, and all new ships (including the freewinder/startwinder) can go back to being equipped with a BDS.

No downside, easy, solves loads of problems.

 

[Ethaidan]

The FSS isn't the 'most basic necessary tool', since it gives you ALL the information about the system with the exception of the exact location of persistent POIs - but it does tell you which planets they're on. It's a hugely overpowered tool (even more so than the ADS) and I think you're being overly optimistic if you believe that any additional functionality required for exploration will not be rolled into the FSS, DSS or the composition scanner thing.

OK, fine the FSS includes the basic necessity of being able to discover what is in any system, and then goes beyond what the ADS did, but at least it does make one do a modicum of work for that information. Perhaps I am being optimistic, but they've opened a slot, so they could refill it with something new, maybe.

 

[Jenner]

It's better than playing 'honk, point at the sphere, and jump'

The old system had history and quite a few commanders who really liked it. Change is hard. I sympathize, but I greatly prefer this new system to the old. It's not perfect, but it's an improvement.

 

[Old Duck]

The FSS isn't the 'most basic necessary tool', since it gives you ALL the information about the system with the exception of the exact location of persistent POIs - but it does tell you which planets they're on. It's a hugely overpowered tool (even more so than the ADS)....

The FSS is a powerful tool, but it does require skill and effort, unlike the ADS honk. It's also fairly realistic, since we can generate all sorts of "system information" about our solar system right here from earth using telescopes.

That said, I would be happy if some of that information was shifted to the DSS. The percentages of elements (materials), the number of POIs, whether or not a planet is terraformable, and maybe a few other stats. I'd also be okay if the FSS had a limited number of zoom cycles, forcing pilots to at least be in the same solar system they are scanning. And since the FSS knows the direction and rough distance of planets, populating the navigation panel with "Undiscovered Astronomical Body" would be okay by me as well.

Surely this would be enough to satisfy at least some of the "Bring back the ADS" crowd, no?

 

[Mangal Oemie]

... but you never had to come to a halt to get the detailed surface scan - with the mapping system you have to be a min speed. Therefore the initial acceleration after mapping is much slower than moving on from say half-throttle in the old system. So that is why it feels so slow to me but as I said, the mapping payouts I suppose compensate.

I don't think that's really the case, as your speed is primarily related to where you are in the planetary body's gravity well. If you throttle down to zero in the middle of empty space in the middle between star A and star B that's 100K Ls out and throttle up again, you're almost immediately back to 100s of times the speed of light. It's not that you have to be still. It's that you're much much closer to the body than a DSS scan before.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The FSS is a powerful tool, but it does require skill and effort, unlike the ADS honk. It's also fairly realistic, since we can generate all sorts of "system information" about our solar system right here from earth using telescopes.

That said, I would be happy if some of that information was shifted to the DSS. The percentages of elements (materials), the number of POIs, whether or not a planet is terraformable, and maybe a few other stats. I'd also be okay if the FSS had a limited number of zoom cycles, forcing pilots to at least be in the same solar system they are scanning. And since the FSS knows the direction and rough distance of planets, populating the navigation panel with "Undiscovered Astronomical Body" would be okay by me as well.

Surely this would be enough to satisfy at least some of the "Bring back the ADS" crowd, no?

I thnk that would work for me - they key element in your suggestion being a populated Nav Panel. With that, I can essentially ignore the FSS entirely and return to resolving bodies by flying around. The godliness of the FSS would therefore be less of a concern, for me.