If I wanted a 'radio-tuning' game I would have rather bought an old radio.

[IndigoWyrd]

If you dont want to discuss it then don’t read, or post in, the thread.

Dunno who you are or why you think you’re so important but pretty sure threads don’t close because you say so.

They are as entitled to their opinions as you are. Stifle them and be stifled yourself.

That said, I happen to like the FSS as it’s something to actually do. The ADS was nothing to do.
Something is always greater than nothing.
Is it the greatest Something-to-do?

That’s kind of hard to answer, since there is almost nothing else to compare it to. STO has ship sensors for locating resources but they’re not all that interactive. Mass Effect has some scanning as well, actually somewhat similar. That’s about all there is to compare.

I’d ask for anyone to come up with something better, but this thread’s existence shows that’s not possible, as the proponents here just want to run away back to the old garbage ways. But if you’ve got something that is NOT a one-and-done, god’s-myopic-eye solution, I’m curious to hear it.

 

[Scytale]

"Evolution" of the space-scan concept:

Spoiler

70's, Star Trek:

80's, Spaceballs, Starship Troopers:

90's, Predator:

2000's, Prometheus:

2018, Elite: Dangerous:

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I’d ask for anyone to come up with something better, but this thread’s existence shows that’s not possible, as the proponents here just want to run away back to the old garbage ways. But if you’ve got something that is NOT a one-and-done, god’s-myopic-eye solution, I’m curious to hear it.

I can tell you what I would have preferred, but it wouldn't be popular with anyone who likes the FSS because you have to fly around the system in order to explore it, rather than playing a minigame. It also doesn't include a single magic, weightless scanner that detects everything - biologicals, space pixies, Guardians, Thargoids, etc - requiring you take make outfitting choices based on what you're looking for on your exploration trip.

I'd have made exploration involve strategy, fog-of-war and flying your spaceship. Want to know more?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I can tell you what I would have preferred, but it wouldn't be popular with anyone who likes the FSS because you have to fly around the system in order to explore it, rather than playing a minigame. It also doesn't include a single magic, weightless scanner that detects everything - biologicals, space pixies, Guardians, Thargoids, etc - requiring you take make outfitting choices based on what you're looking for on your exploration trip.

I like the FSS and I love flying around the system. You do know that those two things are not mutually exclusive.

What you can't seem to understand is that the FSS does not exploration for you. All it does is gather information so you can decide what to explore. If you decide not to fly around a system, that's all on you. The FSS does not take that away from you. It was always a player choice before hand and it is now. That hasn't changed.

I'd have made exploration involve strategy, fog-of-war and flying your spaceship. Want to know more?

The new FSS has a fog of war, can involve planning and thought (not too sure about strategy though, seems like the wrong word).

As to flying around the system, well you need to do that to survey a planet with the DSS probe launcher.


All your arguments against the new discovery mechanics seem completely null and void. It seems to have everything you want.

 

[Riverside]

I've been travelling along the fringe in the Keplers Crest region, now close to the border with the Xibalba region. In the week or so I've spent in the Keplers Crest region I've completed most of my Codex tick-boxes including a first reported. I've got 620kCr in codex discoveries since I last docked (Seagull Nebula IIRC).

Starting to wonder what the point of showing the wave scan is, I'm still completion scanning every system & mapping what I would have scanned before 3.3. I noticed the 'scanning' symbol delay in the FSS Scanner Screen seems to be tied to framerate so I've switched off the framerate cap. Waiting for the geological site count to complete is now much more tolerable at ~280fps and while this may seem a waste of resources it has the added benefit of keeping my feet warm

Exploring the galaxy is still the same as before the update, the galaxy itself is unchanged & the challenge to reach a destination system is still as engaging as it was, but the wave tuning just gets in the way rather than helping.

Having to both be in supercruise and at zero throttle to enter the FSS Scanner Screen is just irritating when biological signals are not presented in any other screen. I comp scan a POI on planet & want a reminder of where the next one is but the game doesn't present this info, if I can't remember I need to re-enter the FSS Scanner Screen and look for it again. If I left the game & re-enter I actually need to honk again.

Still missing the ADS but starting to wonder how the playerbase would react to hiding the Filtered Spectral Analysis initially and populate that while finding & resolving the blue blobs. Without an ADS that might feel like actually discovering rather than just surveying busy work.

Being able to scan at a distance or at speed and locate POIs with mapping are worthwhile QoL benefits but the implementation falls between two stools. The ADS provided a useful start to the discovery process, the Filtered Spectral Analysis (the wave signal in the FSS Scanner Screen) only serves as a reminder that I am playing a game.

 

[Scytale]

I can tell you what I would have preferred, ...

Nope. Inapropriate to an arcade-ish space explo game, as ED has become.

 

[Para Handy]

........ But if you’ve got something that is NOT a one-and-done, god’s-myopic-eye solution, I’m curious to hear it.

I remember perhaps the most common comment in the Beta was for the FSS to be an additional tool beyond the DiscoScan, have the (perhaps simplified) layout of the system presented after honk and go into FSS mode to scan the system for body information plus of course other signal sources. It fell on deaf ears at F D though.

I was really bothered by the FSS at first but now I quite like it, in fact I wouldn't have encountered the NSF at all without it, but I think the amalgamation idea would have been a good move "back in the day". I don't know if F D would even consider changing things now.

Once you get used to it (and get your controls well set-up) it can be quite quick but I have to admit that it has made me tend to fully-scan (I don't mean fully-map) whole systems - the full system scan bonus helps of course.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I can tell you what I would have preferred, but it wouldn't be popular with anyone who likes the FSS because you have to fly around the system in order to explore it, rather than playing a minigame. It also doesn't include a single magic, weightless scanner that detects everything - biologicals, space pixies, Guardians, Thargoids, etc - requiring you take make outfitting choices based on what you're looking for on your exploration trip.

I'd have made exploration involve strategy, fog-of-war and flying your spaceship. Want to know more?

I wouldn’t have asked if I didn’t want to know. Give up all the details, down to module masses, power draws, and how you’d integrate this into ships already out in black and far from home. Extra points for fun factors.

 

[Stamford Rider]

I wouldn’t have asked if I didn’t want to know. Give up all the details, down to module masses, power draws, and how you’d integrate this into ships already out in black and far from home. Extra points for fun factors.

FWIW I'd be interested to read it too.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I wouldn’t have asked if I didn’t want to know. Give up all the details, down to module masses, power draws, and how you’d integrate this into ships already out in black and far from home. Extra points for fun factors.

Module masses and power draws?
Not going into that level of detail, as it'll just lead to nit-picking and quibbling, and there are people with much better knowledge of that kind of balancing than me - there might even be some who work for FDev
You'll have to make do with TANSTAAFL - There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

Details will follow, when I'm not using my phone...

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Module masses and power draws?
Not going into that level of detail, as it'll just lead to nit-picking and quibbling, and there are people with much better knowledge of that kind of balancing than me - there might even be some who work for FDev
You'll have to make do with TANSTAAFL - There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

Details will follow, when I'm not using my phone...

I wouldn’t actually expect masses and power draws, but mentioned it because this really needs to have details, and the more the better. Amen to the no-phone - I have to use mine in the office and it’s frill all annoying. It loves to make up words and “correct” things that were correct, plus I have fingers the size of a child’s hand, so micro-touch-keyboard is pain!

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Initial Honk
Populates System Map (including orrery) and Nav Panel with locations of masses within the system. Masses are resolved into individual bodies as range reduces, based on the size/mass of the body - similar to the way the old DSS activated at different distances, depending on the size/mass of the body. So at 5,000 Ls you don't know if that blob is one big gas giant, or two smaller ones - whether it has moons is a mystery.

Secondary stars are identified only by class - the information is currently available from the GalMap - and again will require proximity for resolution and identification of orbital bodies.


Scanners
All scanning functions are shifted to sub-modules of the core scanner package. The size of the scanner package determines the number of sub-modules that can be fitted, and the class determines their range. This allows all ships to continue to be used for exploration, but it means that a Sidey will be less capable than a 'Conda.

[Balancing]
There's some balancing work to be done here - probably necessary to allow a smaller core scanner to be fitted, since you currently only have the option of which class to fit. Allowing smaller scanners lets players make a trade off between mass number of sub-modules and range. 'Condas could drop a scanner size to improve their jump range, or to increase the range of the scanners, but at the cost of capability. This would likely need to be limited to dropping one size otherwise we'll have 'Condas fitting size 1 scanners and having a base jump of 200LY. Or just nerf the 'Conda
[/Balancing]

Sub-module types (there are probably more, but this will do for starters)
USS detection
Universal Cartographics integration (allows previously explored systems to auto-resolve)
Detailed Surface Scanner
Biological anomaly detection
Guardian/Thargoid anomaly detection
Space pixie detection
KWS
Manifest Scanner
Wake Scanner
Mining stuff scanner - haven't kept up with the changes so I don't know the details


So, all of this is making exploration more challenging - strategy and fog-of-war will do that - and you wanted fun, so...


Probes

Deep Space
An optional new 'deep space' probe module that allows players to remotely explore the system.
Probes have limited fuel, but that fuel is only used for acceleration/maneuvering so they have infinite range, if you're prepared to wait long enough. The capabilities of the probe match the scanner sub-modules.
Probes are launched via the orrery and can be used to scan multiple bodies by using gravity slingshot techniques and their onboard fuel- like NASA does now. Probes are finite (but synthesizable), so you definitely want to be hitting multiple bodies with them, unless you like gathering mats.
DSP module size and class will determine the number of probes which can be launched simultaneously and their fuel reserves - same behavior as limpet controllers - and will be engineerable. Mass and power draw should probably be the same as limpet controllers.

Surface
Keep the existing surface probe gameplay but make them finite (but synthesizable), but the results will be hotspots showing probably locations, so that the player still has to explore the area (by ship or SRV) to locate the anomaly. SRV scanners will show the anomalies but ship scanners won't - so either eyeball the area or drive around. You're going to be driving around to gather mats anyway.


'Dedicated' Exploration Ship
It seems like people really want one of these, and this system allows for it - simply make the new ship have a larger scanner than every other ship, and be the only one that can fit all exploration modules. Then it can compete with the 'Conda without having to have a stupidly large jump range and the rest of the internals can be sized so that it doesn't also become the best multirole ship.


Other Stuff
The new things to find are all very nice to look at, but none of them are interactive. I think there should be some 'science' gameplay involved in these things - like figuring out how the hell bark mounds have distributed themselves throughout the galaxy after evolving on airless planets. Are they all the same species? How do they reproduce? What's their lifecycle? These things should be mysteries to solve, not boxes to tick in the Codex.

The new things inside the Bubble shouldn't have been worth anything - unless they magically appeared overnight then realistically they'd already have been known about. They should be visitable (like Tourist Beacons) but you should only get credit for things further out.


Anyway, that's built up enough creativity - now it's time for the forum to knock it all down again

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

<snip>

Forgot to talk about the upgrade for people out in the black.

It would depend on exactly what scanner sub-modules were implemented, but automatic re-outfitting would be based on what modules you currently have fitted.
So, as an example.

If you have a DSS, you get the DSS module.
If you have an ADS, you get the thargoid and space pixie modules.
Everyone gets the USS detector and the UC Integrator.

The DSS gets turned into the surface probe module - as it did for 3.3.

 

[Scytale]

I want to play that game ! When the release ?

 

[Thatchinho]

Initial Honk
Populates System Map (including orrery) and Nav Panel with locations of masses within the system. Masses are resolved into individual bodies as range reduces, based on the size/mass of the body - similar to the way the old DSS activated at different distances, depending on the size/mass of the body. So at 5,000 Ls you don't know if that blob is one big gas giant, or two smaller ones - whether it has moons is a mystery.

Secondary stars are identified only by class - the information is currently available from the GalMap - and again will require proximity for resolution and identification of orbital bodies.


Scanners
All scanning functions are shifted to sub-modules of the core scanner package. The size of the scanner package determines the number of sub-modules that can be fitted, and the class determines their range. This allows all ships to continue to be used for exploration, but it means that a Sidey will be less capable than a 'Conda.

[Balancing]
There's some balancing work to be done here - probably necessary to allow a smaller core scanner to be fitted, since you currently only have the option of which class to fit. Allowing smaller scanners lets players make a trade off between mass number of sub-modules and range. 'Condas could drop a scanner size to improve their jump range, or to increase the range of the scanners, but at the cost of capability. This would likely need to be limited to dropping one size otherwise we'll have 'Condas fitting size 1 scanners and having a base jump of 200LY. Or just nerf the 'Conda
[/Balancing]

Sub-module types (there are probably more, but this will do for starters)
USS detection
Universal Cartographics integration (allows previously explored systems to auto-resolve)
Detailed Surface Scanner
Biological anomaly detection
Guardian/Thargoid anomaly detection
Space pixie detection
KWS
Manifest Scanner
Wake Scanner
Mining stuff scanner - haven't kept up with the changes so I don't know the details


So, all of this is making exploration more challenging - strategy and fog-of-war will do that - and you wanted fun, so...


Probes

Deep Space
An optional new 'deep space' probe module that allows players to remotely explore the system.
Probes have limited fuel, but that fuel is only used for acceleration/maneuvering so they have infinite range, if you're prepared to wait long enough. The capabilities of the probe match the scanner sub-modules.
Probes are launched via the orrery and can be used to scan multiple bodies by using gravity slingshot techniques and their onboard fuel- like NASA does now. Probes are finite (but synthesizable), so you definitely want to be hitting multiple bodies with them, unless you like gathering mats.
DSP module size and class will determine the number of probes which can be launched simultaneously and their fuel reserves - same behavior as limpet controllers - and will be engineerable. Mass and power draw should probably be the same as limpet controllers.

Surface
Keep the existing surface probe gameplay but make them finite (but synthesizable), but the results will be hotspots showing probably locations, so that the player still has to explore the area (by ship or SRV) to locate the anomaly. SRV scanners will show the anomalies but ship scanners won't - so either eyeball the area or drive around. You're going to be driving around to gather mats anyway.


'Dedicated' Exploration Ship
It seems like people really want one of these, and this system allows for it - simply make the new ship have a larger scanner than every other ship, and be the only one that can fit all exploration modules. Then it can compete with the 'Conda without having to have a stupidly large jump range and the rest of the internals can be sized so that it doesn't also become the best multirole ship.


Other Stuff
The new things to find are all very nice to look at, but none of them are interactive. I think there should be some 'science' gameplay involved in these things - like figuring out how the hell bark mounds have distributed themselves throughout the galaxy after evolving on airless planets. Are they all the same species? How do they reproduce? What's their lifecycle? These things should be mysteries to solve, not boxes to tick in the Codex.

The new things inside the Bubble shouldn't have been worth anything - unless they magically appeared overnight then realistically they'd already have been known about. They should be visitable (like Tourist Beacons) but you should only get credit for things further out.


Anyway, that's built up enough creativity - now it's time for the forum to knock it all down again

Various bits aren't new to me, but as always, I like it (at least in principle!).

Personally, I'd favour not having a specific module for biologicals / Thargoids / Guardians etc. but rather having a generic signal detector, which would show anything unusual in the form of a signal pattern, and then have it be a case of investigating unrecognised signals, and then being able to develop both personal recognition and interpretation of the signals, & also have the scanner gradually building up pattern matching via use (both personal, and with a community contribution too). I would tie the precision of location of signals into that too.

When atmos landings comes, I'd see that as having a significant effect, and personally I'd not really have surface probes for atmosphereless worlds, but have surface probing or other things come in to play on atmospheric worlds where the atmosphere would play a much more significant role in stopping / effecting / disturbing signals.

Also I'd add only being able to view (on the SysMap & Surface Map) the sides of bodies that have actually been seen - no somehow just being able to see the backs of bodies.

Another thing I'd add is Ship Launched exploration vessels. Small, manned ships with SC capability (but possibly not hyperspace capabilities) which crew could pilot to aid in the exploration of a system.

Plus, further down the line in the game, it'd be awesome if FD span up a few more galaxies, which are completely unexplored, with no Galmap and no locations known other than the entry location initially, and which we could do a full pioneering discovery of.

 

[Scytale]

Plus, further down the line in the game, it'd be awesome if FD span up a few more galaxies, which are completely unexplored, with no Galmap and no locations known other than the entry location initially, and which we could do a full pioneering discovery of.

... with fog of war ? Yes !
No need of that Trip Advisor-GalMap !

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Forgot to talk about the upgrade for people out in the black.

It would depend on exactly what scanner sub-modules were implemented, but automatic re-outfitting would be based on what modules you currently have fitted.
So, as an example.

If you have a DSS, you get the DSS module.
If you have an ADS, you get the thargoid and space pixie modules.
Everyone gets the USS detector and the UC Integrator.

The DSS gets turned into the surface probe module - as it did for 3.3.

See, that’s so much better than “I want the ADS back”, because you don’t - you want a completely different system for Exploration than either the old or the new system, along with a ship designed around this. It’s not bad. The real question left to answer is, how would it play? Would it be as much fun the 10,000th time as it was the first 10?

I certainly see potential here. I also see something likely beyond the scope of a portion of an update - this would be an entire year’s worth of update. Perhaps 5.x could be Elite: Rexploration, which would not release in 5.x, 5.y and 5.z format throughout the year, but all at once at then end. There would, of course, be tons of forum salt over the release format change, probably a few rage quits too for having to wait, and a complete lack of combat application would drive out some more, but who needs them, right?

 

[Scytale]

Let them just release a new spin off game. Elite: Explorers.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Various bits aren't new to me, but as always, I like it (at least in principle!).

Thanks

Personally, I'd favour not having a specific module for biologicals / Thargoids / Guardians etc. but rather having a generic signal detector, which would show anything unusual in the form of a signal pattern, and then have it be a case of investigating unrecognised signals, and then being able to develop both personal recognition and interpretation of the signals, & also have the scanner gradually building up pattern matching via use (both personal, and with a community contribution too). I would tie the precision of location of signals into that too.

I like this, but with a tweak:

How about an 'electromagnetic emissions' scanner that will detect Thargoid/Guardian/Human signals, that can be identified from their different spectra - like surface deposits in the SRV
Then a 'biological emissions' scanner that produces an output similar to a mass spectrometer. Again, specific types can be identified from their emissions - no more 'Oh look! Another bark mound' when landing on the planet.

When atmos landings comes, I'd see that as having a significant effect, and personally I'd not really have surface probes for atmosphereless worlds, but have surface probing or other things come in to play on atmospheric worlds where the atmosphere would play a much more significant role in stopping / effecting / disturbing signals.

Also I'd add only being able to view (on the SysMap & Surface Map) the sides of bodies that have actually been seen - no somehow just being able to see the backs of bodies.

Another thing I'd add is Ship Launched exploration vessels. Small, manned ships with SC capability (but possibly not hyperspace capabilities) which crew could pilot to aid in the exploration of a system.

All sounds good to me.

Plus, further down the line in the game, it'd be awesome if FD span up a few more galaxies, which are completely unexplored, with no Galmap and no locations known other than the entry location initially, and which we could do a full pioneering discovery of.

Proper fog-of-war +1

 

[kpmop]

...

Scanners: Nah - A sidey should be just as capable as an Annie. We don't need more modules - there's too many things already that limit your choice of ship just so you can fit everything you want to take - It's acceptable in the bubble where you can just dock and change your loadout, but suppose you're out in the black and spot something interesting but you don't have the right scanner because you didn't have space for it -- that'd be a "tad" annoying. Just have the two we have now - modify the FSS (as per countless suggestions) to populate the nav panel and maybe stick blue blobs system map till they've been scanned.

Probes - (Deep space) that's pretty much the same as just flying there so they don't add much, apart from mat grind to build more.

Surface - yeah I like that suggestion.

Dedicated Explo Ship - nah - there's already the DBE, Phantom, Asp-E, Annie (and many other's if you're not obssessed with jump range).

Ohter stuff - yeah, that'd be good.

Anyway #2!