The difference is only fundamental on paper. In terms of experience of the player crushed by meta gear they can't acquire (yet) it's all the same: An unfair advantage you can do nothing about.The debate about Horizons pay2win or not is by now a throughly dead beaten horse to be honest. But yeah, my personal take is that it is akin for example to the expansions in WoW where you got access to extra levels etc. If you consider that p2w then Horizons is too.
Horizons has a built in natural balance mechanism though in that it requires time for you to "level up". Lots of time in some cases. Time that other non Horizon players can use instead to go up the ladder to a better ship or better rated modules, get synthesis or simply save money for rebuys allowing them more risky playstyles. This natural balance tends to thin out once players get billions and all the top ships though (although if players get to that level they all probably have Horizons by now and the issue is moot).
Either way there is a very fundamental difference between that "pay2win" mitigated by a very clear time opportunity cost, and instantaneous pay2win with direct purchases of upgrades and improvements for real money such as in WoT or War Thunder.
IF Space Legs, Atmospheric Planets and Base Building are not part of New Era...
- Thread starter VR SenseiMatty
- Start date
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Only if you think in terms of players that have "all the time in the world" like many of us here, and which is what I refer to above about that balance thinning out at "billions" and top ships (in which case chances are most of those players have Horizons anyways and the issue becomes moot). For everyone else, probably the vast majority of the casual player base the opportunity cost choice and balance is very real.
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High wake wins every time, don't need anything special for that.
VR is key for me now. I can’t look back.
Try putting that clumsy HMD of and you might be able to look back!
I play WoW a lot at the moment, and I'm sorry, but the expansions are NOT pay to win.The debate about Horizons pay2win or not is by now a throughly dead beaten horse to be honest. But yeah, my personal take is that it is akin for example to the expansions in WoW where you got access to extra levels etc. If you consider that p2w then Horizons is too
If I create a Panda character (from the Mists Of Pandaria expansion) I am no better off than a Human character. I don't get any bonuses or any special weapons. Yes the different races get different abilities, but that's like saying a Viper is fast and a Corvette is big.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your definition of pay to win, but I'm only going by what I quoted here.
A lot of the theoretical arguments behind all this depend on one question- Is Frontier Developments interested in continued improvement for Elite Dangerous- or are they planning on releasing a new game that incorporates these elements instead?
Historically- with each iteration of the Elite franchise, it's brought new features, after all. So will they continue to sink money into this one, or just focus efforts on a new iteration that incorporates new features and use their experience from this one?
Historically- with each iteration of the Elite franchise, it's brought new features, after all. So will they continue to sink money into this one, or just focus efforts on a new iteration that incorporates new features and use their experience from this one?
A player with the Horizons expansion has access to more dockable ports, in some cases large pads in a system that for a base game player only has medium pads. They also have access to more missions, and with an engineered ship can potentially complete missions more quickly or depending on skillset may be able to complete missions an equivalent base player may not be able to do.
Clearly Horizons provides a competitive advantage, and as a player looking to compete against other players in any way the game offers, I am better off with Horizons than without.
Clearly Horizons provides a competitive advantage, and as a player looking to compete against other players in any way the game offers, I am better off with Horizons than without.
Add in an NPC Comms system too.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
I actually agree with you that is not pay2win
Was simply referring to the extra levels granted by some of the old expansions.
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Things that aren't Space Legs or Atmospheric Planets, that could be introduced as part of New Era:
- Volcanism. I mean proper, Mount-Fuji-sized stratovolcanoes with craters at the top spewing lava and ash, not the little Boy Scout campfires we currently have.
- Gas giant scooping/mining/otherwise-interacting. It's "entry-level atmospherics", doing all the clounds and lightning and stuff without the need to simulate the complexities of an atmosphere interacting with the ground, because gas giants got no ground.
- Comet activation. We know "comets are already in the game", apparently awaiting the invention/perfection of some kind of gameplay around them. Let's get it done, and switch them on properly.
- Military Career revamp - we were told they were looking into this way back around 2.2 or so: an actual, meaningful miltary progression for the Superpowers, not unlike the one in FE2/FFE.
Yeah some new stuff to fly around in/over/through.
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
lol actually it is because of his clumsy HMD he can not only look back but can get up and walk to the back of his ship.Try putting that clumsy HMD of and you might be able to look back!
(albeit leaving a headless corpse in the flight chair)Actually the first time I experienced this it was an accident. I stood up to goto the toilet and in a moment of madness didn’t take my HMD off. The sense of immersion was unexpected and so so good. Was in a python so my head didn’t “clip” through anything.
I agree that by a very literal definition horizons is P2W.... however I think it would be really dissapointing indeed if an expansion didnt offer some cool stuff to work for to give you that slight edge. (My perspective is slightly different because I dont see ED as a PvP game, other than coop with a few real life mates - i dont even do that now as they have given up on ED sadly - so for me ED isnt a competitive game I barely even play as a MP game now.... )
I agree however that Horizons went way way to far with it however most games which have DLC have better gear for instance Borderlands... infact borderlands is not a million miles from how i played ED when i had mates playing it, coop in a group of 3/4
So if you want to call horizons P2W I wont argue, but casting your net that wide imo makes the majority of games with DLC P2W and in doing that, you kind of hide the games which DO have awful P2W with golden ammo and XP boosts etc etc etc
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when i am a long way from my destination in super cruise i still now regularly stretch my legs , standing at the front of the glass in a....... cant remember, it was a lakon ship, probably my asp or T6 - whilst being hyperdicted was very cool indeed.
You’re talking about people who have already bought the game.
I’m talking about people who don’t even know ED (and the forums) exists.
We are both people who already bought the game, so that's the perspective we both see it from.
I’m talking about people who don’t even know ED (and the forums) exists.
They'll see the hype in the gaming press/cinema (based on past trailers) when FDEV's marketing give a green light on press coverage of new era which won't happen too early as it'll die down before release and can't happen before they know with reasonable certainty exactly whats going to make the final cut plus an accurate estimate of a subsequent release date.
Wait and see.