If this game doesnt have the Elite/Frontier magic why not - what does it need?

[Rearden]

After reading 12 pages of forum posts this is the one I can relate more to which for the TL;DR folks translates to "why isn't Elite Dangerous actually Dangerous?"

And I see a lot of people, thinking that lack of documentation is the same thing as having an hard game, it is not. Once you get to know the game the most likely cause of death is a station wall... it is just disappointing.

First of all: I like the game! I enjoy playing it and I neither regret having spent money for it (the game itself (starting with beta), a new joystick) nor will I hesitate to invest even more money (Oculus Rift, expansions, maybe even some skins). I am looking forward in excitement to whatever new feature FD will present us.
But still, I think there is something missing.

What is missing so far in repect to this thread, however, is not more shiny stuff. ED is full of it already. Athmospheric fligth, planetfall, walkable spaceships - all this will be highly appreciated and add to the overall experience for sure. But it will not change my personal grieves with the game.

It is neither multiplayer. Coop missions, multi crew ships, coordinated jumps... all of this and more will be great and the game will benefit from having it without any doubt. But it will not solve what I miss.

In my opinion - and it is only an opinion as good as everybody else's - the "magic" that is missing, the lackluster ingredient is the feeling of achievement.

Those who played 'The Original' might remember the struggle to reach the safety of the next spaceport under constant attacks of pirates. The anxious look on the sensors, the adrenalin rush whenever a groupe of blips indicated unknown spaceships approaching your vessle. Are they friend or foe? Will they attack or just passing you, minding their own busyness?
Transporting valuable haulage was a real risc! When you finally arrived at your destination, your hands might have trembled, maybe some sweat pearls stood on your forehead - but you knew that you actually had achieved something! Cashing in your trading profit was merely a sweet add-on!

Combat was forced on you! You had to withstand or perish! There was no "oh, do I want to fight or not?" mini game, no every-once-in-a-while interdictions. There were only laser-hits pattering on your shields!

And this was the reason, why you desperately wanted to upgrade. Why you were grinning from one ear to the other, when you finally could afford a better ship, a better weapon, better shields. Because it helped you to actually SURVIVE (and not just to have a new and "interesting" game experience)!

So, in my opinion, there is no additional content needed, to bring back the "magic" of the original game. All you need is already there! More content is welcome, of course, but will not change much.
What is really, really needed, is to bring back actual DANGER into Elite: Dangerous. A new... no, the OLD balance!
And with the danger, the feeling of achievement and sucess in overcoming it!

Point number 2 would be the lack of NPC interaction, or rather how the lackluster interaction feels disconnected from the Universe. Actually all the whole Universe feels disconnected from itself. Why are NPCs at Nav Points or why don't players get dropped into a nav point once they enter a system? That at least would explain why they are there.

Point number 3: The lack of interaction with the Universe. It doesn't even have to go full EvE but why can't players do an effective blockade of a system? If everything goes through the Nav Point why can't we shoot everything there and stop the supply (well, besides the whole solo mode / instancing thing but lets focus on NPCs which are the bulk of trading anyway) from reaching stations in the system? If FD does not want us to do this then the response needs to be to have more police / escorts / whatever protecting the nav points / traders and not artificial and invisible barriers.

Point number 4: NPCs again - can we at least get some procedurally generated pictures of NPC faces on the bulletin board so it feels like we're actually talking to people instead of a bot? As other players suggested some kind of dialogue would be helpful as well.

Point number 5: USS and RNG just suck the belief out of this game. Especially for bounty hunting it just so bad it hurts. There is no way to make yourself believe you are stalking your prey instead of just praying to the RNG gods to let this USS be the USS that has your mission objective.

And there are probably plenty of other things that could help make the Universe feel more alive which probably tops everything else on my list. What is the point of planetary landing if the planets will feel dead? What is the point of (proper) multiplayer if all you accomplish is visiting a graveyard with your friends? Lots of work to be done and it won't be easy.

 

[Sztripi]

After reading 12 pages of forum posts this is the one I can relate more to which for the TL;DR folks translates to "why isn't Elite Dangerous actually Dangerous?"

And I see a lot of people, thinking that lack of documentation is the same thing as having an hard game, it is not. Once you get to know the game the most likely cause of death is a station wall... it is just disappointing.



Point number 2 would be the lack of NPC interaction, or rather how the lackluster interaction feels disconnected from the Universe. Actually all the whole Universe feels disconnected from itself. Why are NPCs at Nav Points or why don't players get dropped into a nav point once they enter a system? That at least would explain why they are there.

Point number 3: The lack of interaction with the Universe. It doesn't even have to go full EvE but why can't players do an effective blockade of a system? If everything goes through the Nav Point why can't we shoot everything there and stop the supply (well, besides the whole solo mode / instancing thing but lets focus on NPCs which are the bulk of trading anyway) from reaching stations in the system? If FD does not want us to do this then the response needs to be to have more police / escorts / whatever protecting the nav points / traders and not artificial and invisible barriers.

Point number 4: NPCs again - can we at least get some procedurally generated pictures of NPC faces on the bulletin board so it feels like we're actually talking to people instead of a bot? As other players suggested some kind of dialogue would be helpful as well.

Point number 5: USS and RNG just suck the belief out of this game. Especially for bounty hunting it just so bad it hurts. There is no way to make yourself believe you are stalking your prey instead of just praying to the RNG gods to let this USS be the USS that has your mission objective.

And there are probably plenty of other things that could help make the Universe feel more alive which probably tops everything else on my list. What is the point of planetary landing if the planets will feel dead? What is the point of (proper) multiplayer if all you accomplish is visiting a graveyard with your friends? Lots of work to be done and it won't be easy.

Again somebody who is absolutely right. I really can't understand why people don't see this. Trying to argue the same things again and again.

 

[ste]

Thargoids
Landing on planets.
More mission and progression depth.
More life in the galaxy, it still feels like the last elite had more story.
More personality, NPCs felt more alive in the last elite. They feel like just a randomly generated name on this.
More persistence.
More threat, more danger.
Its too safe and predictable.

 

[nosscar]

First of all: I like the game! I enjoy playing it and I neither regret having spent money for it (the game itself (starting with beta), a new joystick) nor will I hesitate to invest even more money (Oculus Rift, expansions, maybe even some skins). I am looking forward in excitement to whatever new feature FD will present us.
But still, I think there is something missing.

What is missing so far in repect to this thread, however, is not more shiny stuff. ED is full of it already. Athmospheric fligth, planetfall, walkable spaceships - all this will be highly appreciated and add to the overall experience for sure. But it will not change my personal grieves with the game.

It is neither multiplayer. Coop missions, multi crew ships, coordinated jumps... all of this and more will be great and the game will benefit from having it without any doubt. But it will not solve what I miss.

In my opinion - and it is only an opinion as good as everybody else's - the "magic" that is missing, the lackluster ingredient is the feeling of achievement.

Those who played 'The Original' might remember the struggle to reach the safety of the next spaceport under constant attacks of pirates. The anxious look on the sensors, the adrenalin rush whenever a groupe of blips indicated unknown spaceships approaching your vessle. Are they friend or foe? Will they attack or just passing you, minding their own busyness?
Transporting valuable haulage was a real risc! When you finally arrived at your destination, your hands might have trembled, maybe some sweat pearls stood on your forehead - but you knew that you actually had achieved something! Cashing in your trading profit was merely a sweet add-on!

Combat was forced on you! You had to withstand or perish! There was no "oh, do I want to fight or not?" mini game, no every-once-in-a-while interdictions. There were only laser-hits pattering on your shields!

And this was the reason, why you desperately wanted to upgrade. Why you were grinning from one ear to the other, when you finally could afford a better ship, a better weapon, better shields. Because it helped you to actually SURVIVE (and not just to have a new and "interesting" game experience)!

So, in my opinion, there is no additional content needed, to bring back the "magic" of the original game. All you need is already there! More content is welcome, of course, but will not change much.
What is really, really needed, is to bring back actual DANGER into Elite: Dangerous. A new... no, the OLD balance!
And with the danger, the feeling of achievement and sucess in overcoming it!

YES.... just yes, this. Sure new content will be great, but this whats missing.
Have some rep sir, you hit the nails head spot on.
Even the name Elilte DANGEROUS is wrong.
How about Elite SAFETY.

 

[Antmax]

Again somebody who is absolutely right. I really can't understand why people don't see this. Trying to argue the same things again and again.

Considering that you can fly through non anarchy systems without shields or lasers fitted to your ship. Probably not THAT bad. That's how I earnt my cobra. Sidey with no shields and bigger cargo. No weapons for higher jump range. Hauler with no shields or weapons for the same reasons. Once you have the cobra you have real options.

 

[Konspiratsia]

it does have the magic though ok one or two rough edges need polishing up but I can survive the wait

 

[Sztripi]

Considering that you can fly through non anarchy systems without shields or lasers fitted to your ship. Probably not THAT bad. That's how I earnt my cobra. Sidey with no shields and bigger cargo. No weapons for higher jump range. Hauler with no shields or weapons for the same reasons. Once you have the cobra you have real options.

Hmmm. You might be onto something. However my main gripe is that the security forces are no better than the pirates. There are no other solutions in the game other then shoot to kill. Especially feel like that in the stations. As I said before a station feels like a war zone everywhere I go. They always shoot to kill, mercilessly. There is no other punishment.

 

[sabrex449]

we have a pizza base but no topping.
I like the pizza base it taste good cant wait for the topping to come.

I think someone is sabotaging this as in some uss you come across 3 ships and they are escorting a funeral parlour. Pretty much describes allot of comments on how dead it really is. Im still playing though trusting FD can pull out something from the bag.

 

[deMangler]

There's a few things.
One is that Frontier was genuinely incredible for its era. Even from the demo, seeing that courier flying down from space, to a spaceport, past stations and cruisers.. the galaxy with millions of stars, being able to watch moon rise or a gas giant set from one of its moons.. unbelievable in the early 90s.

E : D is fantastic in many regards, but it is not so far removed from its peers to have that same wow factor today (in Oculus Rift it gets the closest).

Then there's the lack of mystery. In many ways that can be attributed to the internet, and to the open development from Kickstarter model - so that everyone knows what's out there without having to go and see it. In Frontier I always had that feeling that there could be things out there that I just hadn't found. It even did - I thought I'd seen it all then I found there were missions to spy on planetary bases. Thought I'd seen it all again then found I could nuke them.. etc. But it's not only the mystery factor - there really is lack of sufficient diversity and genuinely rare or unique stuff. While the detail of things has increased dramatically (but only on par with other games), the diversity hasn't, and that's important in a procedural game.

There are some small details which better helped suspension of disbelief in Frontier. For example, assassination missions gave you a target, a time and a place. They would be there.. you could even go there early and watch them arrive in open planet surface ports. You could follow them when they left, etc. It gave the impression of a living universe with real people who moved around. Now, you get a mission and you randomly stop at points of interest, seeing a handful of people until miraculously you happen across the exact person you needed. It makes it feel much more like an MMO instance than a living universe.

Some of the important things that will help a lot are not finished or fleshed out yet - like the dynamic galaxy and the news feed. They are quite flat and do not pull in enough interesting information to make it seem like life is really going on around you. I fully expect this to improve.

This is very pertinent. I really hope the USS mission thing is placeholder. Maybe persistent NPC's will make the galaxy feel like more than a bunch of mission spawns.

 

[Frank]

we have a pizza base but no topping.
I like the pizza base it taste good cant wait for the topping to come.

I think someone is sabotaging this as in some uss you come across 3 ships and they are escorting a funeral parlour. Pretty much describes allot of comments on how dead it really is. Im still playing though trusting FD can pull out something from the bag.

It's a shame that the pizza delivery arrived at the door with no topping. The only reason they did that was to say they got there within the 20 minutes.

 

[Bambi]

GTA is not a good model for open world games, if you're doing open world do the opposite of whatever GTA did. I'd call Rockstar's particular brand "empty world" games instead. Because they're big and empty and has nothing to do except the story missions. Even Elite 1984 and this are millions of times better.

Minigames are nice, but really truly serve only as a distraction from the meat of the game, and should not constitute the main gameplay as you will then quickly be bored of doing the same minigames over and over. Taking Roman bowling can only be interesting so many times.

And if there are minigames they should back up the meat of the game, rather than distract. For a good game design you want an integrated experience where all aspects tie together to create a unified whole, with no extraneous parts that don't seem to fit. The scooping minigame for example, ties into mining - which is really resource collection in the games economy - as well as trading, pirating and scavenging. It creates a strong base for many important gameplay interactions to occur that all tie back to the galactic simulation.
I don't see how a hunting minigame could possibly do the same. Maybe as a variant on resource collection but what do I know?

 

[The Space Pirate]

Some of the supercruise journey times are just ridiculously long in my opinion also, making a large part of the travel gameplay very boring (once you get over the initial awe of all the eye candy). The "long" 3-4min Alpha Centauri run in FE2 now takes ~1hour in ED - this is a ridiculous amount of time to be expected to sit at your computer doing effectively nothing but staring at the screen!

Really? I haven't yet gone to Alpha Centauri but have Frontier seriously made it even longer than it used to be?? In God's name, why? It was bad enough in Frontier, but it sounds like it's worse in Elite Dangerous thanks to the lack of automation in Super-Cruise. I really hope there's some sort of autopilot you can buy later on to make it more like Frontier's system, which worked well when allied to 'Stardreamer' (or speeding up time). Apart from very rare occasions, it was a reliable system which delivered you safely to the station's gate. Now, it seems you have to continuously monitor it so you don't end up miles past the station. Super-Cruise held many doubts for me even before release; unfortunately those doubts are worse now.

 

[The Space Pirate]

Since you negative rep me for a disliking of watching a dot and numbers counting down for minutes on end, perhaps you could at least have the decency to explain to me how that is in any way the same as the original Elite and what exactly it is you enjoy about minutes of doing nothing but watch said bright dot and number counting down?

Whatever system is designed / refined / tweaked - someone needs to realise that watching a dot and number count down for minutes on end is LITERALLY minutes of my LIFE doing NOTHING. Cap's for emphasis.

Well, yes. I agree; I was hoping that it wouldn't feel like Frontier in that way, but it does only in a worse way due to the lack of automation.

Also, let us radio message other ships in space and ask them questions (another feature we had in FE2, which made the galaxy feel alot more ALIVE!)

Yeah, but in fairness, did you ever get anything out of telling an enemy to 'Surrender or Die' other than 'Ha Ha'? As for 'Help I'm Under Attack', or 'Help my ship has broken down', they may as well not even have been choices for all the good they did.

It's beginning to feel like a waste of money...a waste of £100 to be exact. I can only hope that when the game is more fleshed out, it'll be more fun to play because right now it's rather dreary. And yes, I played Frontier to death. No, I don't like handholding and I couldn't care less about achievements.

Lesson learned. Even if it's a game I've waited a long time to play (like we all have), I won't ever pledge for a Kickstarter again.

 

[ToniB]

one word:

Challenge


and perhaps:

Feel of Accomplishment but that comes with challenge i guess.

 

[The Space Pirate]

one word:

Challenge


and perhaps:

Feel of Accomplishment but that comes with challenge i guess.

Quite so. PC Gamer sums it up well:


Elite: Dangerous

A great game and, with time, potentially a classic. Much rests on Frontier's ability to build on these broad but somewhat shallow foundations.

Full review:

http://www.pcgamer.com/elite-dangerous-review/

 

[KING5TON]

Better missions
More involved missions. Multipart missions. Missions have have a noticeable effect on the galaxy

Stronger multiplayer
Content for multiple players (i.e. optional missions that take more than 1 player). Better system to play with friends.

Better background simulation
Better feedback from the game on the impact players have on the galaxy. Improvements to the reaction of the galaxy to player actions (i.e. warzones that actually change). More ways to interact with the galaxy

More involved story
Stronger elements to used to get players together (e.g. some kind of reward for taking part in these galaxy shaking events). More story, one or two 2 minute to read galnet news posts aren't enough IMO


Balancing/adding depth to the professions
Professions need to be balanced so they all scale well. Each profession needs reviewing and improving to add more depth, some need it more than others (e.g. mining, smuggling).

More treasures in the sandbox
Things to find when exploring that actually have an effect on the game. Wrecks, weird things, alien things, alien civilizations, rogue AI baddies and other cool stuff to make the galaxy a bit less dry and just the same thing over and over 400 billion times.

 

[nats]

Yes with Frontier trying to make the game a jack of all trades it has become a master of none. Once you get past the initial rush of playing the first new space sim game in years, and have tried the exploration, travelling, combat and trading mechanics over a couple of weeks of play the game soon starts to get a bit stale. You realise 75% of the DDF stuff hasnt yet been added, you dont have enough ships to make for a decent progression in that respect, or even much choice for that matter, and the randomness/repetitiveness of it all becomes apparent.

And with Frontier not being very open and communicative it just is making concerns in the forum far more worrying than they should be. Dont they have a community manager at Frontier? Where is he if they do? Not apparent on the forums thats for sure.

They keep sending newsletters out with nothing in them other than vague attempts at storytelling or protraying events that are not represented in the gameplay at all. They are concentrating on skins, political dynamics and release dates when they should be working all out to get some of the more major aspects of the the game filled out like chained missions, external views, multiplayer coordination, real moving assassination targets/pirate hordes, loads more stations and ships, enabling community made skins and decals and enhancing mining and trading mechanics and information provision.

Lets hope Frontier start producing the goods sooner rather than later. I want this game to be extremely successful not a downright failure before it even gets started. They made a great start last year and in the first half of this year but since then things have gone from bad to worse.

 

[The Space Pirate]

we have a pizza base but no topping.
I like the pizza base it taste good cant wait for the topping to come.

I think someone is sabotaging this as in some uss you come across 3 ships and they are escorting a funeral parlour. Pretty much describes allot of comments on how dead it really is. Im still playing though trusting FD can pull out something from the bag.

To elaborate upon your pizza based quote: not only do we only have the pizza base, but we've paid for a fully loaded pizza (even if you 'only' paid £40, that's still a good £10 more than the typical PC game release).

 

[KING5TON]

Yes with Frontier trying to make the game a jack of all trades it has become a master of none. Once you get past the initial rush of playing the first new space sim game in years, and have tried the exploration, travelling, combat and trading mechanics over a couple of weeks of play the game soon starts to get a bit stale. You realise 75% of the DDF stuff hasnt yet been added, you dont have enough ships to make for a decent progression in that respect, or even much choice for that matter, and the randomness/repetitiveness of it all becomes apparent.

And with Frontier not being very open and communicative it just is making concerns in the forum far more worrying than they should be. Dont they have a community manager at Frontier? Where is he if they do? Not apparent on the forums thats for sure.

They keep sending newsletters out with nothing in them other than vague attempts at storytelling or protraying events that are not represented in the gameplay at all. They are concentrating on skins, political dynamics and release dates when they should be working all out to get some of the more major aspects of the the game filled out like chained missions, external views, multiplayer coordination, real moving assassination targets/pirate hordes, loads more stations and ships, enabling community made skins and decals and enhancing mining and trading mechanics and information provision.

Lets hope Frontier start producing the goods sooner rather than later. I want this game to be extremely successful not a downright failure before it even gets started. They made a great start last year and in the first half of this year but since then things have gone from bad to worse.

Regards the point to this thread what do you think needs adding? Just the DDF stuff?
p.s. not having a go, just promoting people to give their ideas

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

To elaborate upon your pizza based quote: not only do we only have the pizza base, but we've paid for a fully loaded pizza (even if you 'only' paid £40, that's still a good £10 more than the typical PC game release).

Less complaining, more explaining. Tell FD right here right now what you think they need to add to the game to make it better. You never know they might take note

 

[Phier]

To be honest, this game is a LOT closer to the original Elite than it is to Frontier. To me Frontier and First Encounters never were a real Elite. Dangerous is much much closer to it. And i am very happy with it. Frontier and First encounters had too much mumbo jumbo going on.

This game basically is the original elite. I played that ever loving crap out of it when I was a kid and I think I got a special mission once and managed to go to the other galaxy only to find it was the same stuff there. This is probably why I'm happy with the game right now, this is part of my gaming life here. Now if they don't expand on it with the incredible possibilities they have here, I'm going to be sad.