If you want players to play in Open Play you need to consider this.

[5m4llP0X]

Could you share what happened and whether you think any actions you could have taken would have prevented it? As I say, it's new to me but I'd like to develop a counter. I don't suppose you videod it?



Well, we could be a long time waiting as they don't seem in any rush to prevent terrorist CMDRs doing what they do. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience so early, and I'm glad you kept playing. There are ways to counter most things that are thrown at you - it's up to you of course if you choose to engage with that in Open as it is at the moment.

I have good friends who've kept the game fun. If it weren't for them this game would have been refunded. And it's not your fault open play is infested with those people. It's the fault of Frontier for catering to that toxic behavior and then just offering a work-around (solo/private) instead of actually dealing with the issue.

I've got to disagree with the statement about rebuys - the general advice is to have at least 3 times the rebuy cost when you buy a ship to be safe - though that might be a bit extreme (some might say 5 or six, lol) if you choose to fly without reserves, then that's on you as you think that risk is worth it.

At Baba Umer Durga, a Muslim shrine near Sholapur, India, babies have been tossed off roofs for nearly 700 years as part of a ritual.
Just because something IS that way doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

[ethelred]

At Baba Umer Durga, a Muslim shrine near Sholapur, India, babies have been tossed off roofs for nearly 700 years as part of a ritual.
Just because something IS that way doesn't mean it's a good idea.

i'm not sure that analogy works as flying with enough credits for multiple rebuys is a very sensible course of action.

Regardless of how Open could be improved, my point is that it is survivable now with techniques you can use.

fly safe.

 

[5m4llP0X]

i'm not sure that analogy works as flying with enough credits for multiple rebuys is a very sensible course of action.

Regardless of how Open could be improved, my point is that it is survivable now with techniques you can use.

fly safe.

My last comment sums up the point. Because it is that way doesn't mean it's a good design choice. Just because they do ream us hard whenever we die doesn't mean it's something we should enjoy or celebrate as a good design decision. Plain in simple: it's terrible, and your comment did nothing to debate that.
And I'm not worried about "survivable". I have an Anaconda Cargo Hauler/Miner, Alliance Chieftain, and a DBX explorer all fully kitted out for their respective roles with another 160m in the bank. I have rebuy for 5 Anacondas. The fact is that it SHOULDN'T cost me that much IF I do die. Nor should it ream me on all my cargo. I've never seen an MMO set a player that far back over a death. Not even DDO back when every late game monster did item damage was that brutal towards players.

 

[[VR]m335]

What a whole lot of whining.

A single hour will buy back your 10mil rebuy for a fully combat outfitted PvP FDL. A few hours will buy back your rebuy on a top-spec Cutter. And these numbers can be reduced further by making smart decisions about internal modules, particularly "Reactive Surface Composite", "Prismatic Shields", etc, which are extremely expensive, but only moderately useful outside 1v1 PvP engagements. Where again, 10mil will rebuy your top ship.

What do you want? No rebuy at all? A galactic scale deathmatch?

If anything, wealthy players should be at more risk from paying that rebuy on account of large groups of newer players. So their illegitimate griefing professions become more expensive. As it stands now, even twelve engineered ships can barely take down a properly engineered target that flees immediately.

Even so, rebuys are a phenomenally rare event in the Elite 'Dangerous' universe. My entire 'career' in ED, all open, about a thousand hours, I have been *lucky* to see that hollow rectangle. *Lucky!* Wherever the latest exploit is (nowhere currently), and Shinrarta Dezhra, are maybe the only two places I ever see maybe eight hollow rectangles. And if I see more than that, I think, 'wow, what a coincidence'. In all that thousand hours, I have been jumped, unprovoked, less than five times. Of that times, only twice could I have been shot down unwillingly. Of those two times, only once shot down, and only on account of flying back from a passenger mission with an undershielded configuration.

Exploring, materials gathering, or driving on planetary surfaces, in open, I don't even have the thought of fear. A rebuy is just not going to happen. No one cares.

All of my rebuys have resulted from calculated risks, from which more than enough was learned to justify their costs.

To honestly suggest "open" is "toxic" today, you are either doing something wrong, or you are not flying with people who have similar interests. Properly arm yourself before going to hot spots for activity. Include a decent shield generator, thurster, and maybe point defense, to run away. Watch approaching friends on your galaxy map (if any). Join a reputable player group that doesn't specialize in griefing. Learn.

By the way, as a member/ambassador of DS, AA, EDN, and FLC, I friend every hostile CMDR I find, to keep my galaxy map full of potential targets, and minimize instancing issues. Surprisingly few green dots show up at any given time, even around EDT/GMT evening time. With a new CG, or at tic night, maybe twenty, invariably spread all over the bubble. Any other time, less than ten. During off-hours, one, maybe two, maybe none. As part of EDN, I've helped chase those guys down, from Eravate, to the CG, until there were no hostile green dots left _anywhere_.

 

[5m4llP0X]

What a whole lot of whining.

A single hour will buy back your 10mil rebuy for a fully combat outfitted PvP FDL. A few hours will buy back your rebuy on a top-spec Cutter. And these numbers can be reduced further by making smart decisions about internal modules, particularly "Reactive Surface Composite", "Prismatic Shields", etc, which are extremely expensive, but only moderately useful outside 1v1 PvP engagements. Where again, 10mil will rebuy your top ship.

What do you want? No rebuy at all? A galactic scale deathmatch?

Already covered this. Instead of 10% cost, 1% and no 100% loss of cargo. I've never seen an MMO that brutally punishes players as bad as this game.
Maybe also encourage CQC to let toxic garbage players do their thing in a less destructive manner.

To honestly suggest "open" is "toxic" today, you are either doing something wrong, or you are not flying with people who have similar interests. Properly arm yourself before going to hot spots for activity. Include a decent shield generator, thurster, and maybe point defense, to run away. Watch approaching friends on your galaxy map (if any). Join a reputable player group that doesn't specialize in griefing. Learn.

So turn the type-6 into a combat ship is your response to toxicity? That's absurd.

By the way, as a member/ambassador of DS, AA, EDN, and FLC, I friend every hostile CMDR I find, to keep my galaxy map full of potential targets, and minimize instancing issues. Surprisingly few green dots show up at any given time, even around EDT/GMT evening time. With a new CG, or at tic night, maybe twenty, invariably spread all over the bubble. Any other time, less than ten. During off-hours, one, maybe two, maybe none. As part of EDN, I've helped chase those guys down, from Eravate, to the CG, until there were no hostile green dots left _anywhere_.

You're not suggesting anything that would encourage private players to step back into open or discourage the toxic trolls from reaming players so hard.

 

[[VR]m335]

Seems to me you are not complaining about toxic trolls, or rebuys, as much as the frustration new players can encounter in open. And you have several misconceptions about how that works.

Toxic trolls do not slaughter newbies just because they enjoy sending them to a pain-filled rebuy screen. Rather, PvP players generally have an extraordinarily difficult time engaging their peers. Some chose to get a weak ship, to make a challenge out of piracy, which is otherwise both nonchallenging and boring. Some chose to disrupt every other activity as much as possible. The problem here is after overcoming a grind wall of several hundred hours, players have absolute impunity to attack even large groups of weaker players. Solo/PG players are not coming back if they can be so much as be sent back to station, again, again, and again, for this.

Toxic trolls are also much less numerous than they might seem, especially nowadays. Only a couple dozen tryhards are enough to terrorize an entire galaxy, because the rich-vs-poor divide is so ridiculously overpowered. Nothing will discourage these individuals.

Nerfing rebuy is actually likely to *encourage* a return to terrorism, because it will weaken the C&P rules. While these do not discourage terrorism, they do slow down the slaughter greatly. Station services are locked out. Legitimate bounty hunters can legally shoot bad guys, because notoriety keeps their wanted status active for a while. Once shot down, bad guys are sent to far away places, rather than instantly returning to cause more trouble in the same system.

Already covered this. Instead of 10% cost, 1% and no 100% loss of cargo. I've never seen an MMO that brutally punishes players as bad as this game.

Not brutal at all, not for endgame players.

So turn the type-6 into a combat ship is your response to toxicity? That's absurd.

A Type6 cannot carry more than 1mil credits worth of cargo and rebuy. Even a new player can get that back. However, regardless of rebuy, it is not possible to avoid getting sent back to station in a ship like this. Elite is just not balanced, and getting rid of the rebuy feature is not a solution.

You're not suggesting anything that would encourage private players to step back into open or discourage the toxic trolls from reaming players so hard.

Toxic trolls... you seem to imply there are a lot of them. However, there are not. That was my point. The few tryhards left will not be discouraged.

 

[5m4llP0X]

Seems to me you are not complaining about toxic trolls, or rebuys, as much as the frustration new players can encounter in open. And you have several misconceptions about how that works.

Toxic trolls do not slaughter newbies just because they enjoy sending them to a pain-filled rebuy screen. Rather, PvP players generally have an extraordinarily difficult time engaging their peers. Some chose to get a weak ship, to make a challenge out of piracy, which is otherwise both nonchallenging and boring. Some chose to disrupt every other activity as much as possible. The problem here is after overcoming a grind wall of several hundred hours, players have absolute impunity to attack even large groups of weaker players. Solo/PG players are not coming back if they can be so much as be sent back to station, again, again, and again, for this.

Toxic trolls are also much less numerous than they might seem, especially nowadays. Only a couple dozen tryhards are enough to terrorize an entire galaxy, because the rich-vs-poor divide is so ridiculously overpowered. Nothing will discourage these individuals.

I disagree entirely. If you reduce the penalty on new and mid-level players and increase the penalty on these toxic players it will discourage them. I'm all for PvP, when it doesn't clear one of their bank then force them back to a sidewinder. It can be done constructively and the current set up is horribly flawed.

Nerfing rebuy is actually likely to *encourage* a return to terrorism, because it will weaken the C&P rules. While these do not discourage terrorism, they do slow down the slaughter greatly. Station services are locked out. Legitimate bounty hunters can legally shoot bad guys, because notoriety keeps their wanted status active for a while. Once shot down, bad guys are sent to far away places, rather than instantly returning to cause more trouble in the same system..

Again, read the my initial post. If their notoriety is super high we can have hordes of NPCs masslock them in blow them apart over and over until it drops to a certain level. Also lock out station services so they can't reload, switch ships, refuel, or stock up.
Or, just increase all damage towards their ships based on their level until it drops back down.

Not brutal at all, not for endgame players.

Awesome you don't give a damn about the time and effort you put into the game.

A Type6 cannot carry more than 1mil credits worth of cargo and rebuy. Even a new player can get that back. However, regardless of rebuy, it is not possible to avoid getting sent back to station in a ship like this. Elite is just not balanced, and getting rid of the rebuy feature is not a solution.

Never said 'get rid of'.

Toxic trolls... you seem to imply there are a lot of them. However, there are not. That was my point. The few tryhards left will not be discouraged.

I've never just implied this--I outright said it--and you're still not coming up with any solution better than mine. You're just badly defending a broken system.

 

[Zelos1983]

No, it's not 'full of toxic players'.

Sorry, but the E community is quite toxic compared to other gaming communities. Especially the PvP crowd.

For Open to be viable, there must exist a way to not interact with them. Which is what PGs are for.

 

[5m4llP0X]

Sorry, but the E community is quite toxic compared to other gaming communities. Especially the PvP crowd.

For Open to be viable, there must exist a way to not interact with them. Which is what PGs are for.

Or at least lessen their damage towards the players who actually want to experience and interact with the rest of the community.

 

[Hetork Tesser]

Flying in "the bubble" in open mode is like playing russian roulette.
You meet some really nice players but there is always this one idiot that thinks it is fun to kill you for no reason - ALWAYS !
So i play mostly solo, open only for boarhopping or if i am at the edge of the galaxy where i am sure that no idiots are around.

Time is money ! In this game money is work and grind. And i do not have 16 hours a day where i can play this game. In the few hours a day i have to play elite i want to make progress to buy new ships or modules or engineer my ships. Yes, 10mil rebuy may be only an hour of making some missions but if i would have to rebuy my ship regulary i would only work for the upkeep of the rebuy. Sorry but that could not be the intended meaning behind this game.

 

[Mercy Killing]

I am simply amazed that FDev can consider making a game feature only accessible in one mode of game play, but cannot provide an engineer free version of the game.

TO THIS DAY, I cannot find NPC ships that are non-engineered. Even in solo. Even when I choose the non-Horizons version on the game launcher. You want my business/patronage/support? Give me a version of the game that I can play and not find any engineered ships. AT ALL. EVEN NPC ONES.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

2) Cargo/bounties/exploration loss is absurd. I know this game is supposed to be part-sim, but this compounds the reason why people won't play in Open.

All cargo and data should be covered by the same insurance. In car insurance you can choos to insure also transported goods. I imagine trucks got this insurance. So they just need to include this in our basic ship insurance. If a player destroy you without any reason (you were not wanted in that system), the insurance will restore your cargo and data, or it will cover the equivalent value.

 

[andrego]

I think the current system is fine. CMDR's need to get more educated on how to over come their troubles with griefers and trolls. Especially new CMDRs. I have noticed that over my time here I have run into less and less trouble with griefers. And its because I have learned how to avoid/deal with them.

 

[5m4llP0X]

I think the current system is fine. CMDR's need to get more educated on how to over come their troubles with griefers and trolls. Especially new CMDRs. I have noticed that over my time here I have run into less and less trouble with griefers. And its because I have learned how to avoid/deal with them.

It's called solo or private play. This is how we deal with the toxic trash that infests Open. If the devs want to encourage people to step back into Open by making CGs open only then they also need to make the game less toxic for players. Just because you enjoy the equivalent of hammering nails into your arms for fun doesn't mean we all do. Personally, I'm not a fan of tetanus.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

I think the current system is fine. CMDR's need to get more educated on how to over come their troubles with griefers and trolls. Especially new CMDRs. I have noticed that over my time here I have run into less and less trouble with griefers. And its because I have learned how to avoid/deal with them.

Is it a space simulation or a psychologist simulation? I don't want to learn how to deal with trolls and griefers, I leave this for the real life. I don't want frustrations during my poor free time!

 

[5m4llP0X]

Is it a space simulation or a psychologist simulation? I don't want to learn how to deal with trolls and griefers, I leave this for the real life. I don't want frustrations during my poor free time!

Either way, this game has put the least effort I've ever seen into mitigating the damage they do towards players and that's the major issue. You can rack up C&P all you want, but if the penalty towards the player griefed is as high as it is they'll still do it.

 

[[VR]m335]

I disagree entirely. If you reduce the penalty on new and mid-level players and increase the penalty on these toxic players it will discourage them. I'm all for PvP, when it doesn't clear one of their bank then force them back to a sidewinder. It can be done constructively and the current set up is horribly flawed.

Again, read the my initial post. If their notoriety is super high we can have hordes of NPCs masslock them in blow them apart over and over until it drops to a certain level. Also lock out station services so they can't reload, switch ships, refuel, or stock up.
Or, just increase all damage towards their ships based on their level until it drops back down.

Actually, I agree with you here. However, I have overheard enough pushback from some of those people you are calling trolls to know we are probably very lucky this was every dealt with as much as it has been now.

Awesome you don't give a damn about the time and effort you put into the game.

To the contrary, I hate the grind I put in. But it was all capital cost, especially the <insert unprintable phrases here> engineer unlocking. Not rebuys.

Never said 'get rid of'.

"1%"

I've never just implied this--I outright said it--and you're still not coming up with any solution better than mine. You're just badly defending a broken system.

Read carefully. I did propose a solution. We are dealing with just about two dozen idiots deliberately screwing everyone over. I like to think at least some of them are doing it out of frustration and protest over inability to engage their peers instead. However, the fact that so few people can inflict so much damage points directly to the solution to the problem.

To stop this, requires a total lockdown, not 'discouraging', and definitely reducing rebuy. A couple dozen terrorists absolutely should not be able to do so much damage. Some of the C&P changes you suggested are really good ideas for this, but tragically will not happen.

However, the C&P changes do make it more possible to shoot down the bad guys. If the legitimate Open community grows, it is possible the balance of power may shift against terrorism.

Is it a space simulation or a psychologist simulation? I don't want to learn how to deal with trolls and griefers, I leave this for the real life. I don't want frustrations during my poor free time!

Either way, this game has put the least effort I've ever seen into mitigating the damage they do towards players and that's the major issue.

This. Both. +100

But it's not all about rebuys.

 

[5m4llP0X]

Actually, I agree with you here. However, I have overheard enough pushback from some of those people you are calling trolls to know we are probably very lucky this was every dealt with as much as it has been now.

That's the issue. The fact ED panders to these trolls at all is astounding. They're a toxic voice in the community and one that has killed the open play of this game, and likely drove players away.

To the contrary, I hate the grind I put in. But it was all capital cost, especially the <insert unprintable phrases here> engineer unlocking. Not rebuys.


"1%"

I don't mind the grind, as long as it's productive. I've actually avoided all exploits when it comes to monetary gain (Survey missions where you just blow up your ship at the end, passenger exploits) because I don't think monetary gain is that slow. I just hate the hours of setback plus whatever else I've done because of a lag spike or an idiot NPC turning all the system authority against me because he ran into me. I rarely die, now a days, but that's mainly because I'm hyper paranoid about losing 20+m on rebuying my ship and all the bounties/cargo/exploration I've gathered.

Read carefully. I did propose a solution. We are dealing with just about two dozen idiots deliberately screwing everyone over. I like to think at least some of them are doing it out of frustration and protest over inability to engage their peers instead. However, the fact that so few people can inflict so much damage points directly to the solution to the problem.

To stop this, requires a total lockdown, not 'discouraging', and definitely reducing rebuy. A couple dozen terrorists absolutely should not be able to do so much damage. Some of the C&P changes you suggested are really good ideas for this, but tragically will not happen.

The rebuy is for two reasons.
1) New players are murdered with the cost. Mid-level players are also severely crippled over it and this just makes their grind that much longer. And late-game players are quite annoyed and frustrated with it.
2) I'm willing to bet that part of why these garbage people do what they do is because they know it sets people back as far as it does. They know if they blow up a cargo ship full of loot that not only does the player loose several million from the rebuy but a few more million from the cargo itself. That knowledge of loss entertains them enough to continue doing it. Take this way and that will cut into their fun.
I would love to experience this less toxic open environment and maybe even meet some other friends who'd be down to running missions, exploring the galaxy, or even checking out the newer content. But because of my previous experience I'm not going to step out of private servers until the issue of toxicity is addressed.

 

[Jubei Himura]

I'm opening myself up to this so here we go... I like Open. I got ganked when I first started and then went to Solo until I learned the game enough. I then came back to Open and have stayed there for the last 3 years. Every so often, I do get ganked at a popular destination, but I have ways of dealing with that (if it's a one time thing, I don't care, but if it's consistent by the same people, I move temporarily to Solo/PG to get that i need done -that is non-Powerplay-).

I like the points that rebuy should be less. I disagree at the 1%, as I think 5% would be a good compromise and will encourage people to engage each other more openly.

I like SenseiMatty's idea for insurance for goods and data (pay a bit extra to cover a little explody-ness). I think there should be a little loss (perhaps it could be seen as a 5-10% deductable?) so that there is some consequence to dying.

I think that player kills outside of Powerplay and anarchy systems should be met with special high cost rebuys & bounties, and every attack (not kill) should result in super engineered (near invincible) system authority showing up and attempting to gank the offending player (balancing needs to happen for timing, otherwise pirating wouldn't be a play style). By every attack, I mean every successful hit on another player who has "Report Crimes" on. That would result in a 25% increase to the rebuy, and a successful kill results in a 2-10x rebuy cost, raising with every player kill. If a player consents to the PvP battle, buy having "Report Crimes" off, they cannot just turn crimes back on to troll the other player: once a consensual PvP is engaged, any involved player would not suffer penalties.


So, yes, there is room in this topic to improve.


However, I hav to vehemently disagree with "Open is infested with toxic players". I have played the last 3 years in open and I can still count the number of times people have attempted to gank me on one hand. Recently, I started a new character and still have yet to see someone attempt to gank me in open (no one would have known who I was). My experience is clearly different from yours.

I can't change your mind, nor am I going to waste my time attempting to. However, I will say that if you don't want to learn how to avoid or deal with the bad stuff that multiplayer brings, then please be happy in Solo or PG, and let us be happy dealing with the dangers and risk of Open. I can say a lot more and pick things apart, but that would not add to the conversation and only adds to everyone's own personal echo chamber. Thinking of solutions does.

When you paint anything with a wide brush, you risk becoming as toxic as the people you complain about.

 

[Ouberos]

I'm opening myself up to this so here we go... I like Open. I got ganked when I first started and then went to Solo until I learned the game enough. I then came back to Open and have stayed there for the last 3 years. Every so often, I do get ganked at a popular destination, but I have ways of dealing with that (if it's a one time thing, I don't care, but if it's consistent by the same people, I move temporarily to Solo/PG to get that i need done -that is non-Powerplay-).

I like the points that rebuy should be less. I disagree at the 1%, as I think 5% would be a good compromise and will encourage people to engage each other more openly.

I like SenseiMatty's idea for insurance for goods and data (pay a bit extra to cover a little explody-ness). I think there should be a little loss (perhaps it could be seen as a 5-10% deductable?) so that there is some consequence to dying.

I think that player kills outside of Powerplay and anarchy systems should be met with special high cost rebuys & bounties, and every attack (not kill) should result in super engineered (near invincible) system authority showing up and attempting to gank the offending player (balancing needs to happen for timing, otherwise pirating wouldn't be a play style). By every attack, I mean every successful hit on another player who has "Report Crimes" on. That would result in a 25% increase to the rebuy, and a successful kill results in a 2-10x rebuy cost, raising with every player kill. If a player consents to the PvP battle, buy having "Report Crimes" off, they cannot just turn crimes back on to troll the other player: once a consensual PvP is engaged, any involved player would not suffer penalties.


So, yes, there is room in this topic to improve.


However, I hav to vehemently disagree with "Open is infested with toxic players". I have played the last 3 years in open and I can still count the number of times people have attempted to gank me on one hand. Recently, I started a new character and still have yet to see someone attempt to gank me in open (no one would have known who I was). My experience is clearly different from yours.

I can't change your mind, nor am I going to waste my time attempting to. However, I will say that if you don't want to learn how to avoid or deal with the bad stuff that multiplayer brings, then please be happy in Solo or PG, and let us be happy dealing with the dangers and risk of Open. I can say a lot more and pick things apart, but that would not add to the conversation and only adds to everyone's own personal echo chamber. Thinking of solutions does.

When you paint anything with a wide brush, you risk becoming as toxic as the people you complain about.

Hey Commander, this is a very considered and mature response. Im not sure I agree 100% with your ideas but they are good.

Hopefully, despite the best efforts of me and my ilk there will be more of this sort of thing. In future. When everyone has come to their senses and stop whining and plays in open. Even the wusses. Although they won't last long.

Sorry. I tried. But I'm so immature. I'm like a 14 yr old man. Admittedly, a well developed, good looking 14 year old man but still a flawed human being.

But anyway, my point still stands. Yours was a good post.