Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Blocking PP players only blocks communications, not instancing

[DemiserofD]

The wiki is a player-made resource, and thus irrelevant. If you can find support ingame, feel free to post it.

The quest for power takes many paths, and none of them are, or should be, gatekept by pvp.

The entire proposal is based on the fundamental belief that your chosen style of play is the only one that matters. How can you possibly be surprised when people disagree?

 

[GroG79]

All this quoting takes the context out of the conversation.

If I run into an npc from a enemy power they do NOT attack me, neither does the enemy station. The examples might be wrong but if you consider this fact then 'The entire galaxy isn't constantly in a state of open war' is valid

 

[Rubbernuke]

The wiki is a player-made resource, and thus irrelevant. If you can find support ingame, feel free to post it.

The quest for power takes many paths, and none of them are, or should be, gatekept by pvp.

The entire proposal is based on the fundamental belief that your chosen style of play is the only one that matters. How can you possibly be surprised when people disagree?

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"Interstellar conquest"..."domination". All very cuddly words.

 

[Rubbernuke]

All this quoting takes the context out of the conversation.

If I run into an npc from a enemy power they do NOT attack me, neither does the enemy station. The examples might be wrong but if you consider this fact then 'The entire galaxy isn't constantly in a state of open war' is valid

Stations are not involved in Powerplay. PP NPCs only attack if you hold merits or cargo, or have a bounty- i.e. you are participating.

Plus, why then have a Galactic standing?

 

[DemiserofD]

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"Interstellar conquest"..."domination". All very cuddly words.

Conquest and Domination can happen through many ways, including economically. This by no means is an endorsement of mandatory pvp.

 

[GroG79]

Thank for that explanation

A leader board? That is for the players I assume. I see no leaderboard in real life like brazil vs canada (exampleto keep away from political talk..)

 

[Rubbernuke]

Conquest and Domination can happen through many ways, including economically. This by no means is an endorsement of mandatory pvp.

And how do you express this economic domination? By hauling. Which others should be able to stop. The same as UM- every power uses violence.

If NPCs pushed back and made solo as potentially lethal as Open, I'd be all for it- maybe EDO will provide that. But going by how nav points, drop zones and SC work re NPCs currently thats not really workable.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Thank for that explanation

A leader board? That is for the players I assume. I see no leaderboard in real life like brazil vs canada (exampleto keep away from political talk..)

The Galactic Standing is Powerplays way of saying which power is currently 'best', a bit like Squadron leader boards. The only problem is we don't know exactly how it works since its still black box and poorly understood. Otherwise, whats the point? Plus several 321 bonuses only work when you are either 1 2 or 3 so its kind of good to see where you are.

 

[DemiserofD]

Which others should be able to stop.

Why?

 

[Northpin]

I think you miss the point entirely. Killing is the worst someone can do, and yet its allowed to block people who might kill you in a feature and mode that allow killing.....

No, killing is not even possible if the opponent is flying a Cutter with 10k shields.
But abusive/ofensive players can be much more worse up to the point of ruining someone's evening. Block is solving this aspect in ED where if you report someone that report might get processed 3 days later.

So main role of block is not against killing, but against trolls.
It can be used against killing too - but well, this comes with the turf.
Pretty much like instancing issues come with p2p cheap networking model.

The free cake is a lie

 

[Rubbernuke]

Why?

Because I want options to stop a rival rather than have to do the same as them. If I lack cash to buy materials in a prep race, I can destroy rival ships to slow progress. If I see a rival in a combat expansion I can ward them off or destroy them so they can't cash in merits. If a valuable system is being fortified, I want to slow a power from fortifying so if they turmoil it might fall off. There are lots of reasons for it, all of which are negated when you can simply wish an opponent away.

 

[DemiserofD]

Because I want options to stop a rival rather than have to do the same as them. If I lack cash to buy materials in a prep race, I can destroy rival ships to slow progress. If I see a rival in a combat expansion I can ward them off or destroy them so they can't cash in merits. If a valuable system is being fortified, I want to slow a power from fortifying so if they turmoil it might fall off. There are lots of reasons for it, all of which are negated when you can simply wish an opponent away.

Why is what you want more valuable than what they want?

You're asking for the majority of players to sacrifice for the minority of players' benefit. Why is this a good thing for the game?

 

[Rubbernuke]

No, killing is not even possible if the opponent is flying a Cutter with 10k shields.

If you are flying 10K shields, then you are not a 100% trade build and thus are being slowed from optimal. Not to mention the application of reverb munitions, drag, Groms etc along with phasing.

But abusive/ofensive players can be much more worse up to the point of ruining someone's evening. Block is solving this aspect in ED where if you report someone that report might get processed 3 days later.

But again- in a game mode nested in a game feature where killing is not wrong, why should people be able to block?

So main role of block is not against killing, but against trolls.

You can't troll someone by killing them in a game mode and feature where killing is not wrong. I can fully understand outside of Powerplay where its not directly competitive, but inside it makes no sense other than to block message chat which often gets stupid.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Why is what you want more valuable than what they want?

I want a feature that is logical in its nature. Being able to delete opponents is not condusive to the feature or that mode in a feature and mode (and game) that does not punish death.

You're asking for the majority of players to sacrifice for the minority of players' benefit. Why is this a good thing for the game?

The 'majority' don't care about Powerplay otherwise they'd be playing it. Plus, its not sacrificing anything when its about making the feature self consistent.

What is good for the game is to offer something it does not have to draw people in- otherwise you have the same gameplay triplicated.

 

[DemiserofD]

I want a feature that is logical in its nature. Being able to delete opponents is not condusive to the feature or that mode in a feature and mode (and game) that does not punish death.



The 'majority' don't care about Powerplay otherwise they'd be playing it. Plus, its not sacrificing anything when its about making the feature self consistent.

What is good for the game is to offer something it does not have to draw people in- otherwise you have the same gameplay triplicated.

Except your feature would only punish the players who are currently playing in one way - the haulers - without substantially increasing the number of players who are already playing the other way - the pvpers.

You're only going to end up reducing the number of players, not increasing them.

Furthermore, there's no reason this is any more logical than the current iteration. Competition does not equate to pvp.

Seriously dude, this suggestion does absolutely nothing good and lots bad. It's terrible in virtually every way.

You want to know how you could really get people involved? Give them incentive to participate.

Not punishments for just wanting to get their foot in the door.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Except your feature would only punish the players who are currently playing - the haulers - without substantially increasing the number of players who are also already playing - the pvpers.

You seem to think that haulers are some sort of cattle in Powerplay- well they are not. The same players who UM also haul too. From a tactical perspective haulers in an Open Powerplay would be the most important ships- why would a power neglect them? Why would they take the chance they'd get killed?

You're only going to end up reducing the number of players, not increasing them.

How do you know? So far the responses point the other way by a big margin.

Furthermore, there's no reason this is any more logical than the current iteration. Competition does not equate to pvp.

PvP and confrontation should act as filters to slow a powers defences or aims. Without it, the only way to compete is to outhaul the other guy which...is not fun because its faceless with each run being identical.

Seriously dude, this suggestion does absolutely nothing good and lots bad. It's terrible in virtually every way.

Really? Why have three features that are functionally the same thing? Games like SW Squadrons have group battles with objectives, you'd think FD would want to entice players who want more of that wouldn't you?

 

[DemiserofD]

The people who enjoy being pursued by pvp builds in a trading ship are already in open. The people who do not would not suddenly change.

I've got no problems with incentivizing pvp for powerplay, but you simply can't force players to do something they don't enjoy, dude. Yes, powerplay absolutely should be different from the other parts of the game, but if you think you can achieve that by fiat, you'll be very, very disappointed. The net result for pvpers will be pretty much unchanged; no targets. Except powerplay itself will be much emptier.

Once again, if you want more people participating in pvp, you need to make them want to be there, not try to force them to be there regardless of their feelings. This suggestion would only achieve the exact opposite of that, making powerplay less desirable for everyone but the pvpers who are already there.

 

[Vetinari]

But if you want to play PowerPlay which is a competitive interactive combat-based contest between live humans, then there's certain rules.

Its a system that allows for 'interactive combat-based contest between live humans', it also allows a non-combatabt to take part by delivering pamphlest around. Its almost as if its designed to allow 2 styles of play within the same system.

And youre right, there are certain rules, but you are the one wanting to change those rules remember?

We all play in the same space, why is it you can travel without risk and make people vanish who threaten you?

Because I paid for my game. Thats the long and short of it. If you dont like it, tough, you didnt pay for my game.

So once that is accepted as indisputable fact what are you left with? I have read all the proposals and only the last 2 I disagree with, the last one I didnt even comment, I stayed quiet. But you just cant force people to do what you want in a game where you paid for your game and they paid for theirs.

If you want to dispute that fact then isolate it and argue why. If not then give up anything that tries to get around it.

If Block is removed or adjusted, do you seriously think the players who have used block will just concede and go to Open and get blown up? Do you seriously think theyll ask for escorts? They wont, they will leave the game.

I want more people in Open. I just dont think I can make them do it if its all one sided.

PP in Open - want to haul PP? We give you a ship to do it in. You dont lose your ship or money, just the leaflets and the time until Rank 4 and then you take a financial penalty as well if you lose it at Rank 4. If you want the PP module you must be pledged and ranked continuously at Rank 4 for 4 weeks minimum, no 27 days of nothing and 1 day hauling, its a reward for commitment from loyal pilots, not for buying leaflets. It may encourage more to do it and once theyre in Open they may stay in Open because they willingly tried it and at low risk until they got used to it. Its the ones who try Open and 'lose' within minutes that never come back.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

The people who enjoy being pursued by pvp builds in a trading ship are already in open. The people who do not would not suddenly change.

I've got no problems with incentivizing pvp for powerplay, but you simply can't force players to do something they don't enjoy, dude. Yes, powerplay absolutely should be different from the other parts of the game, but if you think you can achieve that by fiat, you'll be very, very disappointed. The net result for pvpers will be pretty much unchanged; no targets. Except powerplay itself will be much emptier.

Once again, if you want more people participating in pvp, you need to make them want to be there, not try to force them to be there regardless of their feelings. This suggestion would only achieve the exact opposite of that, making powerplay less desirable for everyone but the pvpers who are already there.

So any suggestion of a compromise? E.g. separate functions for chat and instance blocking so that a chat block to avoid trash talk doesn't break the instance, and requiring that a message be exchanged between players before blocking can occur (otherwise how can I construe that you are a nasty troll and not a valid opponent - and remember this is only in the case of hostile PP opponents flying in open)?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Because I paid for my game. Thats the long and short of it. If you dont like it, tough, you didnt pay for my game.

And yet features need rules to work. Powerplay suffers because everyone has their own rulset rather than the game having them set. In a game mode and feature where killing is acceptable and rewarded (by a single merit) its silly to block people on sight. Its literally you deleting your opponents making Open and Powerplay in that moment worthless.

So once that is accepted as indisputable fact what are you left with? I have read all the proposals and only the last 2 I disagree with, the last one I didnt even comment, I stayed quiet. But you just cant force people to do what you want in a game where you paid for your game and they paid for theirs.

Players have the choice not to play- but Powerplay has to have some ground rules otherwise it winds up being who hauls most wins with nothing else like now- which has failed.

If Block is removed or adjusted, do you seriously think the players who have used block will just concede and go to Open and get blown up? Do you seriously think theyll ask for escorts? They wont, they will leave the game.

Then let them go and let Powerplay actually be something different within the game.

I want more people in Open. I just dont think I can make them do it if its all one sided.

Open has to be Open in Powerplay. You can't have a solid foundation for a competitive co-op experience if you wish away opponents to win.

PP in Open - want to haul PP? We give you a ship to do it in. You dont lose your ship or money, just the leaflets and the time until Rank 4 and then you take a financial penalty as well if you lose it at Rank 4. If you want the PP module you must be pledged and ranked continuously at Rank 4 for 4 weeks minimum, no 27 days of nothing and 1 day hauling, its a reward for commitment from loyal pilots, not for buying leaflets. It may encourage more to do it and once theyre in Open they may stay in Open because they willingly tried it and at low risk until they got used to it. Its the ones who try Open and 'lose' within minutes that never come back.

Thats fine, but until its tried we'll never know. This thread is about giving Open consistency, and highlighting that you can't remove people who want to kill you in a feature that allows it because its dumb.