Interdiction Dodgers

[tagos]

I myself fly with a top rated shield, shield cells, chaff, 2 point defense, ECM, and mines. Right now I feel invincible to any interdiction NPC or Player. I sacrifice profit per hour for safety. This is working as intended, I feel.


An hour or two of solo play. Where you can't play with them. Thus, less players for you to play with. This negatively affects you. The thing is, even if you do kill a trader, all you end up accomplishing is sending them to solo. This isn't your fault, it's FD's fault for making Open / Solo not separate.

I understand the desire to "punish" players when they lose, but realize that you are punishing yourself too.

What ship do you fly?

 

[Darian]

An hour or two of solo play.

Who brought up that " an hour or two?

An full fittet T9 rates easy 9 million insurance, plus 5 million freight in average.

Could someone please tell me where you make 14 million in two hours? I have this Anaconda i like to fit with A modules and military grade armor.....

 

[Andargor]

* Moar player interaction for players that aren't fans of PVP: We want to see more stuff that has players working together in some meaningful fashion, with meaningful game world responses, as much as the next Commander. Various options are in the "big list of cool stuff". We have to take things one step at a time though, making sure what we have works to the best of its ability and has the foundations to support additional game play.

So, I hope this helps clarify things a little for you folk! I'll finish with the note that just because we don't get into every thread on the forums doesn't mean we aren't aware or dismissive of issues raised. Forum interaction is actually relatively costly for us, so we have to pick our moments for maximum effect And remember, feedback (as long as it's polite) is always appreciated!

How about encouraging co-op, in conflict zones for example? Maybe enforce IFF and prevent friendly player killing in some of these zones.

 

[Morbad]

Maybe enforce IFF and prevent friendly player killing in some of these zones.

Any idea that involves making it impossible to fire upon anyone or anything that is within range of the weapons available is a terrible idea.

Plausible, in-game/character consequences are fine. Arbitrary gamist prohibitions are not.

 

[CMDR_Justin_Bieber]

Hello Commanders!

A few points to hopefully let you guys know what our feelings are currently on a few of the issues raised in this thread:
* Submission escape: we are looking into two potential solutions to the ability for ships to submit then charge their frame shift five seconds later.

First though, a rationale as to why we have submission: we want authority ships to be able to drop players out of super cruise, in order that they can scan them. If authority ships can't do this, then smuggling loses some of its excitement. On the other hand, we don't want authority interdictions to damage the ships involved if the Commander is willing to submit to scanning. We also don't want to leave players with a significant cooldown afterwards.

Solution one is to allow the interdictor device to have some sort of FSD delaying attack in normal space, that is temporarily disabled when the device is used for a successful interdiction. So submitting Commanders would be at risk of this attack, whilst Commanders that fought the interdiction would not (but instead would have to contend with their frame shift cool down).

An added benefit would be that the interdictor could be used outside of interdiction.

Solution two would be to remove submission and instead update the AI to be able to demand Commanders to drop of their own accord so that the authority ships could drop out onto them and scan.

Both solutions are non-trivial, both have pros and cons. No ETA, but we are working towards fixing this exploit.

There's also one other interesting point to note. If you submit to interdiction simply to escape back to super cruise there is nothing preventing your assailant from repeatedly dragging you back down. If you fight and successfully evade interdiction, your aggressor is dropped into normal space with a forty second frame shift cool down...

Solution two, I believe would unfairly punish traders, here's why...

My trading ship, with the A shields in class that came with, already can get killed by a viper in 10 seconds or less, and avoiding interdiction in this ship is not possible. To eliminate submission would be a death sentence, one-hundred percent of the time. Also the attackers fsd cooldown didn't stop them from being able to interdict me five times in a space of 120 LS. Which is my idea of balanced, an equal chance for both parties to be victorious. Removing submission would be a harsher punishment for traders than for the murderer themselves.

To those of you who say, well you can jump to another system to avoid the attacker, yes this is true, however make fsd cooldown longer than time to kill and this is no longer an option.

Trading for me is already the riskiest thing I can do, about 15 million worth of risk every time I run a route. Remove submission, and you'll be putting me back in a sidewinder in a matter of hours. Though, how about other traders, what do you say about solution two?

Solution one seems a bit better than solution two, however still swings the meter too far in the direction of the attacker. I hope that great consideration about making the delay to frameshift longer than the time to kill, my biggest issue with the possible change, is being given. Once wings are introduced, if solution one is the one chosen, and interdictors are able to increase cooldown, what is to stop multiple people from tagging the same ship, this on top of being mass restricted by other ships and you will never see a single trader escape again, I hope this isn't a goal of the proposed changes.

 

[Vincent Starson]

What ship do you fly?

I fly a Type-9. I've killed NPC cobras /vipers with mines after interdiction before.

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Who brought up that " an hour or two?

An full fittet T9 rates easy 9 million insurance, plus 5 million freight in average.

Could someone please tell me where you make 14 million in two hours? I have this Anaconda i like to fit with A modules and military grade armor.....

I will PM you.

 

[tagos]

Solution two, I believe would unfairly punish traders, here's why...

My trading ship, with the A shields in class that came with, already can get killed by a viper in 10 seconds or less, and avoiding interdiction in this ship is not possible. To eliminate submission would be a death sentence, one-hundred percent of the time. Also the attackers fsd cooldown didn't stop them from being able to interdict me five times in a space of 120 LS. Which is my idea of balanced, an equal chance for both parties to be victorious. Removing submission would be a harsher punishment for traders than for the murderer themselves.

To those of you who say, well you can jump to another system to avoid the attacker, yes this is true, however make fsd cooldown longer than time to kill and this is no longer an option.

Trading for me is already the riskiest thing I can do, about 15 million worth of risk every time I run a route. Remove submission, and you'll be putting me back in a sidewinder in a matter of hours. Though, how about other traders, what do you say about solution two?

Solution one seems a bit better than solution two, however still swings the meter too far in the direction of the attacker. I hope that great consideration about making the delay to frameshift longer than the time to kill, my biggest issue with the possible change, is being given. Once wings are introduced, if solution one is the one chosen, and interdictors are able to increase cooldown, what is to stop multiple people from tagging the same ship, this on top of being mass restricted by other ships and you will never see a single trader escape again, I hope this isn't a goal of the proposed changes.

Option 2 is about Authority AI as I read it. So clean traders won't be at risk. Smugglers, not so much.

 

[Daffan]

People say that EVE Online is a griefers paradise yet in Elite it's 10x worse.


No reason to play Open.

Trading and Bounty hunting is unbalanced as professions and as PVP divides them

Risk / reward ratios are off by a mile.

Overal, multiplayer was slapped on at the last design meeting back in 2012

 

[StayFrosty]

Once an interdiction tether is established you cannot pause or quit.
If you disconnect then the AI takes over your ship and you cannot rejoin the game until the engagement is over.
If the AI looses the engagement then tough, you loose a ship and its your own fault for chickening out.

If the AI wins, then its tough on the person that interdicted you.

This is something that sounds like a genius idea, and that has quite often been mentioned, proposed, pushed, but somehow never implemented in any game. I can only fully support this, it's about time a game tries it.

 

[Darian]

Everyone who trades in open is asking for it in my opinion
I fly nothing that is more worth than 1 mill in open, I am not the entertainment for the LULZ .. err sorry "PvP" crowd.

 

[Andargor]

Any idea that involves making it impossible to fire upon anyone or anything that is within range of the weapons available is a terrible idea.

Plausible, in-game/character consequences are fine. Arbitrary gamist prohibitions are not.

Any reply that does not carefully consider what the original post intended is also a terrible idea.

Enforcing IFF = "Citizen, if you wish to join the Empire in this battle, you must enable IFF which shall lock your weapons and prevent you from firing upon friendly targets. Long live the Emperor!"

In-game/character consequences, there you go.

 

[CMDR_Justin_Bieber]

Option 2 is about Authority AI as I read it. So clean traders won't be at risk. Smugglers, not so much.

Option two then, removing submission, will still allow submission to humans?

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Hello Commanders!

#snip...




* Chaff is too powerful: Chaff launcher capacity is being reduced (and the munitions is being made more expensive). Like a few other modules that use resources, our initial numbers managed to get out of line with other module balancing passes.

!

I can't recall seeing forums in a massive uproar against chaff? please don't over-do it or gimbals will be too good a option ( and don't forget they can nullify the chaff by deselecting target anyway ).

 

[Arishka]

Simple way to make murder not so easy thing: Make bounty equal or greater that killed CMDR loose. I mean - bounty must be at least insurance price for killed ship + average cargo cost + total sum of stored results of cartographic. Maybe also multiplied by some coefficient depending on CMDR rank/acceptance in current system. If you are outlaw - be outlaw. It's too much to be killed and for 5000 bounty when returning from deep space after 2 week trip with 10kk cartographic results.

 

[Darian]

So freighters could have the remote chance of hitting an target.. hmmm.. is that not.. unfair?

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That would mean killers with easy 15+million bounties on there heads.
Will not happen.

 

[SushiCW]

Hello Commanders!
* Murder is not serious enough: This is an interesting one that has a couple of different strands to unpick. Firstly, we are looking to add in a future update a change that will cause any bounty claimed to become a special, non-expiring fine for the perpetrator. The idea is that when you commit a crime you are expected to pay at some point. Currently some game play flow options remove the bounty completing when you are killed, which is not what we want.

It's also worth noting that a bounty is not simply a fine to pay (otherwise it would be called a fine). It is also a green light for you to be attacked. In fact, this is undoubtedly the more serious part of the punishment. I think we still have some way to go to tweak background events to pick up on Commander bounties more (as in, when you fly around with a bounty the game takes it into account when deciding what to generate in the game world near you).

We already have a system that keeps bounties alive when you are killed but they are not claimed (dormant bounties). I just think it would be too punishing to have bounties that kept on being active after respawning. Sure this would not be an issue for the tiny minority of super wealthy Commanders, but our data suggests that losing a ship is a non-trivial event for the majority of pilots - and having a more or less permanent target on your back would likely just stop people committing crimes. That's my current take, anyway.

We are considering bounty adjustments based on some difference metric between Commanders (for example, Elite Commanders getting slapped with a bigger bounty when attacking lower rated pilots, or perhaps based on ship strength).

Thanks for the update!

My main concern is that in the current system, all you have to do to avoid "wanted" status is to keep your bounties paid off. Sure, it costs you, but for players with a few millions in the bank the cost is trivial. Can you do anything to make it harder to pay off your own bounties? Or at least give players a reason to *not* pay them off immediately? Given that you have to pay for your crime in cash sooner or later, it might as well be sooner and avoid wanted status, right?

Perhaps some high-value missions that only become available to pilots with a big bounty?

 

[NeilF]

Simple way to make murder not so easy thing: Make bounty equal or greater that killed CMDR loose. I mean - bounty must be at least insurance price for killed ship + average cargo cost + total sum of stored results of cartographic. Maybe also multiplied by some coefficient depending on CMDR rank/acceptance in current system. If you are outlaw - be outlaw. It's too much to be killed and for 5000 bounty when returning from deep space after 2 week trip with 10kk cartographic results.

Problem is... Individual 1 spawns, and goes and kills. Gets big bounty. Let's player 2 kill him. Repeat...

Personally think murder should result in a bounty that cannot be paid off for X in-game hours. And this time does not reduce while docked

Maybe also announce the murder to any other CMDRs in the system, and even put up a location on your navigation tab?

 

[Arishka]

Problem is... Individual 1 spawns, and goes and kill. Gets big bounty. Let's player 2 kill him. Repeat...

Personally think murder should result in a bounty that cannot be paid off for X in-game hours. And this time does not reduce while docked

Maybe also announce the murder to any other CMDRs in the system, and even put up a location on your navigation tab?

Ok - make difference between bounty and penalty. Anyway - if you made the loss of some millions, the penalty must be also some millions, it's fair. Bounty can be less (and, it can be fun, growing in time ...)

 

[Darian]

Realistic would be an 15 million bounty, and that means, I make 2 accounts, kill traders and then my own char with the second.
Money machine.
An cobra with dumbfire missles turns about every T9 who is not geared for serious war into swiss cheese.

 

[tagos]

People say that EVE Online is a griefers paradise yet in Elite it's 10x worse.


No reason to play Open.

Trading and Bounty hunting is unbalanced as professions and as PVP divides them

Risk / reward ratios are off by a mile.

Overal, multiplayer was slapped on at the last design meeting back in 2012

Sadly you are right in that there's no rational reason for a Trader to be in Open. Pirates can pick their targets and face no real consequences. Changes are in the offing but whether they'll make things better or worse it's hard to say.

I play as a trader in Open because I like the risk. But I do my trading in a heavily armed A-rated Asp so I don't get bothered that often. Even so I think the pirate risk is over-rated. If you watch your tail, flying evasively to your station so you can spot potential interdictors and learn to go to your destination at full speed and loop back (all the while looking who's on your tail) you can minimise the risk of player interdiction.

When I arrive at a system I make a habit of picking a random direction and immediately getting up to high speed if there are humans around. Only later will I loop back towards my destination. And if things really look unpromising I'll jump somewhere else. There's fun to be had playing trader in Open.