Interiors, why?

[Leper Messiah]

Well, in my misguided start to this forum, I actually came here to discuss a game I love with likeminded people. It turns out that a lot of people who post on here seem to hate the game

I don't "hate" the game per se.....The concept of a 1:1 Milky way to explore is awesome....I'm just bored of doing it in a space ship.

 

[Leper Messiah]

The OP sees the huge ressource sink about to happen and sincerely wonders why you think it will be worth the effort.

The op thinks it is a bad idea because he knows what is involved and never saw a good implementation. In Silent Hunter 5 you had to physically roam the submarine and it made the gameplay worst.

I think that Elite should be more focused and polished instead of throwing itself in every direction.

So that’s why I asked why do you people long to do this when efforts could be put into polishing the already present features like making better missions and more varied content... like instead of remembering how this ship is the top 1% maybe spend a day filling a text file with more radio coms and then a week translating them...

So you want a 3d artist to work on better missions and general game polish?

"more varied content".....um like ship interiors?

I never played Silent Hunter 5, but it sounds like the moving around the submarine wasn't optional, yes I can see how "forcing" players to do something they don't want to do is bad game design (rather like bossfights). But as long as FD make interiors optional that solves that gripe.

 

[Leper Messiah]

By 'perceived problem', you mean, 'massive fundamental flaw', I assume? Hmmmm.

This has nothing to do with disliking fps gameplay, btw. I played about a thousand hours of Overwatch. So stop coming up with ridiculous reasons why I must be some sort of anti-fps prude. In fact, I think it could be quite good, IF it's done in a reasonable and efficient manner. On board ships simply fails to qualify for either of those metrics.

It takes more than just fun. It must be fun AND rewarding, or people will do it rarely if ever. CQC is very fun, for example, but also very rarely used. I personally only do it when I have 7 friends to do it with, and that only happens very rarely.

And besides that, there's zero reason why boarding a ship is a requirement for fun. The exact same player activity is going to be happening on the ground - fps combat - so who cares where it takes place? Except of course, doing it on board active ships causes a huge number of potential problems that a ground based arena does not, and requires an exponential increase in dev time, most of which would never even be relevant. Who's going to board an adder or a sidewinder? 90% of the ships in the game would have content that would never see use.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, stealing ships is just never, ever going to happen. It raises a huge number of problems. Can you just steal engineered modules? If not, why not? If so, you've just created a way to duplicate engineered stuff, which is insane and never going to happen. And even if it's only 5% of the total sell cost, many ships are worth over a billion credits. You're talking about giving players an exponential leap in income for 10 minutes of fps combat. Who cares about cargo piracy at that point, the money's in selling the ships.

The biggest reason why NOT to do ship interiors, especially in regards to fps combat, is because you don't have to. FPS combat works far better, and with far less issues to address, in new, purpose-built areas for this to take place. Trying to force it to work on ship interiors is forcing a square peg into a round hole. Even if you could potentially get it to work, it'll be ugly and not very practical.

Oh I hope to GOD FD don't go down the MP FPS route of large open arena's for Odyssey combat. With players running, crouch jumping, bunny hopping around like weird lunatics (never seen real soldiers do that to avoid getting shot). I want to recreate the opening scenes of Star Wars. I want the tactical useage of cover, killzones and TRAPS, not mindless running around.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

So your argument is that it's not rewarding enough but it's too rewarding. Well it's just like I said, a perceived problem. If I manage to steal a ship worth a few hundred millions and get 5% for it, why not? It would probably be a non trivial task to board a Corvette, involving defenses and maybe overcoming the ships crew. The whole process could easily take an hour. But in the end, you get a payout similar to mining or trading. People always say that crime doesn't pay in Elite, sounds like an ideal opportunity to address this problem.
That it involves effort is another non argument. Creating games requires effort. Following your logic Frontier should've never designed the cockpits because a simple HUD would've been enough.

I do fully agree with your premise for NPC ship boarding..... However your suggestion I don't think would work for PvP ship boarding. I am not gonna get all uppity about it and if FD prove me wrong so be it.... But let's take your spitballing of an HR to disable, board, overcome, restore.and then steal a corvette.... I think that is a very reasonable timeframe for something which could make you 25million profits and has some risk.....
But then that really can't translate to PvP piracy.

Imagine it's 11:50pm on a Sunday night, I am at work 6am and literally about to log off and I get attacked by human pirates. In NOT going to hang around for an HR whilst someone tries to take my stuff and equally I don't want to lose a ship with upwards of 500million credits because it's midnight and I have work.

So for me I would definitely give all these suggested features a go, but IF it was PvP i think it would either kill open OR generate mountains of salt so large they make current killed in open salt piles look like mole hills (possibly both).

Equally would mean people may be encouraged NOT to buy the DLC as it would protect them from being boarded (potentially depending how it worked)

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Oh I hope to GOD FD don't go down the MP FPS route of large open arena's for Odyssey combat. With players running, crouch jumping, bunny hopping around like weird lunatics (never seen real soldiers do that to avoid getting shot). I want to recreate the opening scenes of Star Wars. I want the tactical useage of cover, killzones and TRAPS, not mindless running around.

I am definitely biased here as I don't do PvP or MP with randoms often so keep that in mind... But I think it is vital FD move away from giving features purely aimed direct multiplayer content. FD must start to consider npcs as equivalent for all their content in the game imo, including existing features such as crew.and wingmen making MP a genuine choice not the ONLY option if you want the new stuff

 

[Ydiss]

I never played Silent Hunter 5, but it sounds like the moving around the submarine wasn't optional, yes I can see how "forcing" players to do something they don't want to do is bad game design (rather like bossfights). But as long as FD make interiors optional that solves that gripe.

Yeh, just not buying that "problem" either.

It's travel time. We already have travel time with almost everything we do when moving in our ships. Supercruise, jump load screen, docking and launching (which are literally the same thing as boarding and leaving a ship), orbital flight, glide, load screen to srv and animation of lowering/raising, recalling the ship....

And they'd have a problem with taking a few dozen steps through our ships?

So what, would docking at a station be better if we could skip it with a key press and instantly dock?

Not even worth arguing against that.

I've seen a bunch of videos of other new games recently where you do get to run up a ramp and through your ship to the cockpit. It doesn't take long (easily similar to the srv load screen) but, most importantly, it just looks so fun.

I'd never get bored of it. Certainly not faster than I'd get board of docking.

Seriously, how do some of these people still play this game if they're anxious about a few extra seconds actually boarding their ships?

 

[Ydiss]

I do fully agree with your premise for NPC ship boarding..... However your suggestion I don't think would work for PvP ship boarding. I am not gonna get all uppity about it and if FD prove me wrong so be it.... But let's take your spitballing of an HR to disable, board, overcome, restore.and then steal a corvette.... I think that is a very reasonable timeframe for something which could make you 25million profits and has some risk.....
But then that really can't translate to PvP piracy.

Imagine it's 11:50pm on a Sunday night, I am at work 6am and literally about to log off and I get attacked by human pirates. In NOT going to hang around for an HR whilst someone tries to take my stuff and equally I don't want to lose a ship with upwards of 500million credits because it's midnight and I have work.

So for me I would definitely give all these suggested features a go, but IF it was PvP i think it would either kill open OR generate mountains of salt so large they make current killed in open salt piles look like mole hills (possibly both).

Equally would mean people may be encouraged NOT to buy the DLC as it would protect them from being boarded (potentially depending how it worked)

Just going to say this but... This scenario happens now.

It's a "problem" with pvp in this game right now and always has been. I just don't see why this is a reason to not do something cool...

And the scenario suggested is ultimately the same as now... You go to the rebuy screen. You don't lose 500m now do you?

There are ways to make this process work well enough to warrant enjoying it in pvp. But obviously, you don't like pvp then none of that will interest you.

But then... There's solo...

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Half if not most of the big ships in the game are owned by newbies. Facing AI and an inexperienced pilot will be gankers paradise.

You've not really addressed anything just excused the problems raised.

That is a.different problem tho. The whole economy and balance has been broken in ED for years.... Newbies should not be able to be in the mega expensive ships right away and really they should be learning as they play such that by the time they get a big one they know what to do with it.
That isn't how it works and it is what it is.... But newbies not knowing how to use a big ship and messing it up and losing it is just the other foot falling.... Players can't have it both ways imo. IF someone chooses to run before they can walk then they should not complain if they fall over

 

[Leper Messiah]

I am definitely biased here as I don't do PvP or MP with randoms often so keep that in mind... But I think it is vital FD move away from giving features purely aimed direct multiplayer content. FD must start to consider npcs as equivalent for all their content in the game imo, including existing features such as crew.and wingmen making MP a genuine choice not the ONLY option if you want the new stuff

I look at tripe like Overwatch and Fortnite and it's like the equivalent of TOWIE and Love Island for me.

I want FD to look at System shock 1+2, Deus EX, original Rainbow 6, Original Ghost Recon etc etc for ideas regarding FPS implementation.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Just going to say this but... This scenario happens now.

It's a "problem" with pvp in this game right now and always has been. I just don't see why this is a reason to not do something cool...

I would say it is rare for a PvP fight to last an HR where 1 player is not willing to be in the fight.

It may not work all the time but a player always has the option to try to hi wake .
Also there is the menu timer a feature FD have stated is ok to use if you need to (I never have myself in that way).
Hi waking will need to be disabled if pirates are onboard your ship and also menu logging also becomes problematic.

OTOH it's not such a problem if npcs get griefed by someone menulogging on them

 

[Leper Messiah]

Imagine it's 11:50pm on a Sunday night, I am at work 6am and literally about to log off and I get attacked by human pirates. In NOT going to hang around for an HR whilst someone tries to take my stuff and equally I don't want to lose a ship with upwards of 500million credits because it's midnight and I have work.

genuinely curious....how is that scenario different right now? It's late, you get interdicted, you have no time to fight....what do you do? It may not be an hour but it still delays you.

Or you high wake....which is the same solution to what you say above?

 

[Leper Messiah]

Yeh, just not buying that "problem" either.

It's travel time. We already have travel time with almost everything we do when moving in our ships. Supercruise, jump load screen, docking and launching (which are literally the same thing as boarding and leaving a ship), orbital flight, glide, load screen to srv and animation of lowering/raising, recalling the ship....

And they'd have a problem with taking a few dozen steps through our ships?

So what, would docking at a station be better if we could skip it with a key press and instantly dock?

Not even worth arguing against that.

I've seen a bunch of videos of other new games recently where you do get to run up a ramp and through your ship to the cockpit. It doesn't take long (easily similar to the srv load screen) but, most importantly, it just looks so fun.

I'd never get bored of it. Certainly not faster than I'd get board of docking.

Seriously, how do some of these people still play this game if they're anxious about a few extra seconds actually boarding their ships?

Indeed, even Jedi Fallen Order lets me get onto a ship and explore it's interior. I suppose the same people moaning here would say "why can't I instantly teleport to the next planet" in JFO!

 

[Ydiss]

I would say it is rare for a PvP fight to last an HR where 1 player is not willing to be in the fight.

It may not work all the time but a player always has the option to try to hi wake .
Also there is the menu timer a feature FD have stated is ok to use if you need to (I never have myself in that way).
Hi waking will need to be disabled if pirates are onboard your ship and also menu logging also becomes problematic.

OTOH it's not such a problem if npcs get griefed by someone menulogging on them

Sorry, yes I agree that being forced into an hour long fight would be horrendous.

That's why in my proposal above I said the boarding event is always time limited. You don't get an hour. You get 5 to 10 minutes. Change that for balance.

The aggressor has a ticking clock. The defender might actually use that to their advantage. Or you just surrender... Or escape before the boarding event can happen.

But no, never an hour. We're not talking about having a 100 kill team death match call of duty game here... Just an event that might only take 30 seconds...

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

genuinely curious....how is that scenario different right now? It's late, you get interdicted, you have no time to fight....what do you do? It may not be an hour but it still delays you.

Or you high wake....which is the same solution to what you say above?

It delays you by a few minutes perhaps as hi wake is an option as is menu logging for those who choose it.
Maybe it is my lack of thought on this and as I said I am not arguing one way or the other.just giving my thoughts and FD can prove me wrong

But hi wake will surely be disabled if pirates are on your ship and menu logging would likely cause real issues if an enemy player was on your ship?.

 

[Ydiss]

It delays you by a few minutes perhaps as hi wake is an option as is menu logging for those who choose it.
Maybe it is my lack of thought on this and as I said I am not arguing one way or the other.just giving my thoughts and FD can prove me wrong

But hi wake will surely be disabled if pirates are on your ship and menu logging would likely cause real issues if an enemy player was on your ship?.

You high wake before they board.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Sorry, yes I agree that being forced into an hour long fight would be horrendous.

That's why in my proposal above I said the boarding event is always time limited. You don't get an hour. You get 5 to 10 minutes. Change that for balance.

The aggressor has a ticking clock. The defender might actually use that to their advantage. Or you just surrender... Or escape before the boarding event can happen.

But no, never an hour. We're not talking about having a 100 kill team death match call of duty game here... Just an event that might only take 30 seconds...

The other option is that ships persist outside of stations for a while once the owner has menu logged. This would help in the main game too- to be truly 'safe' you must land in a station or be alone in an instance.

 

[Leper Messiah]

It delays you by a few minutes perhaps as hi wake is an option as is menu logging for those who choose it.
Maybe it is my lack of thought on this and as I said I am not arguing one way or the other.just giving my thoughts and FD can prove me wrong

But hi wake will surely be disabled if pirates are on your ship and menu logging would likely cause real issues if an enemy player was on your ship?.

But what I mean is there are neccessary steps the pirate needs to do to your ship before they can board....you just high wake before that and turn off PC and go to bed?

If you have the time and inclination to fight the boarding then you have the choice.

ah ninja'd by Ydiss!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Sorry, yes I agree that being forced into an hour long fight would be horrendous.

That's why in my proposal above I said the boarding event is always time limited. You don't get an hour. You get 5 to 10 minutes. Change that for balance.

The aggressor has a ticking clock. The defender might actually use that to their advantage. Or you just surrender... Or escape before the boarding event can happen.

But no, never an hour. We're not talking about having a 100 kill team death match call of duty game here... Just an event that might only take 30 seconds...

Yeah that is for FD to sort out. As I said I don't PvP so I can't really offer any unbiased solutions
All I know is from a ME invading and stealing an NPC ship point of view , esp one like a cutter or corvette I like the idea of it taking a long time (these ships are bigger than air craft carriers )

That works when I am the invader as I would just not do that when I am close to logging off.
It's not awful if I get attacked by npcs as I don't mind screwing them over if I log off for bed... But other players......... That is a tough one

 

[Ydiss]

I don't pvp in ED. I might have done at one point (and did in beta/gamma) but I think pvp now is pointless because of Engineers.

So I'd hope fps isn't touched by engineers. If it's skill based and finely balanced, I'd actually fancy my chances defending my ship. I'd even actively seek pirate players then to board them and impound their ship.

That'd be just amazing. If only I didn't have to kill their 9k shields first... Oh well, never mind

Edit: I'm not saying pvp in ED isn't skill based. It is. But the meta is horrendous because of Engineers. Bullet sponge game play isn't fun.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

You high wake before they board.

Why not after. It's not like they have warp jump inhibitors strapped all over them.