Is Elite: Dangerous too difficult?

[baneofcows]

The main thing I think about when I ponder the "difficulty level" of ED (context: been playing since beta) is that it's probably the most dependent on third-party tools, APIs, user-generated guides, etc. out of any game I've ever played.

So if we're talking pure, unadulterated ED in a vacuum? Yeah, it probably is too difficult.

If we're talking the "real" ED where players spend as much time on Inara or EDDB or CMDRsToolBox or YT as they do actually logged into the game and doing something? No, it's probably not too difficult.

But I'm also not sure it reflects well on the game that third-party intervention is basically essential.

 

[Eleris]

For me most of the tedium is caused by hypercruise. I can't believe that after all these years the hypercruise gameplay is still essentially "watch number go down for 5 minutes then throttle down". Sure people will mention a number of tricks to achieve fast drops and such but even if you do that most of the gameplay there is waiting for ages for the right moment.

Pretty much all other phases of piloting the ship are fine. But hypercruise completely ruins the pace of the game for me, it's the weakest link. I usually overshoot because my mind wanders while waiting to get close my destination. This is usually at the point where I question why I'm even bothering with this game. When you dread travelling in a space game because it includes a gameplay sequence that feels like a chore, you have a design issue.

They have a good design philosophy for a lot of other things where they offer you various difficulty/automation levels in the form of assistances that you can choose to disable, and I think it would do wonder for the game to redesign hypercruise in a way that's a lot more involved and engaging. Maybe something based on gravity flings around planetary bodies with an UI overlay helping you with doing it, with wiggle room to cut corners to go faster with the risk of missing your target as well as a flight assistance that can make the entire process hands-off if you prefer that (ideally like the docking computer where you can hand it off to the automaton at any time).

 

[Florenus]

But I'm also not sure it reflects well on the game that third-party intervention is basically essential.

It isn't. Those things are just out there, everyone knows about them and basically every new player is told to use them.
But you can easily play without them. I would even say it's probably better that way.

That being said, I'm aware that when starting it's not easy to get a grasp of various game mechanics without at least checking a wiki site, forums, or other places to learn how certain things work in the game.

 

[baneofcows]

It isn't. Those things are just out there, everyone knows about them and basically every new player is told to use them.
But you can easily play without them. I would even say it's probably better that way.

That being said, I'm aware that when starting it's not easy to get a grasp of various game mechanics without at least checking a wiki site, forums, or other places to learn how certain things work in the game.

You can play without them. And certain things, like the newer commodities market UI, have more information than they used to, which is good.

But "easily" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, and I'm not sure it rings true for the vast majority of players.

Explain to me how you find, without using a third party tool, a particular class of module that you need for your ship if the station you're at isn't selling it? Or build reliable trade routes? Or learn which specific activities provide which specific G5 mats?

This is a bit rhetorical - again, been playing since beta, so I already know the answer to these, and the plain truth of it is, it involves a lot of trial and error. There is definitely a subset of player for whom that kind of thing has real appeal, and I'm not knocking it, per se.

But there's a word for something that requires the dedicated expenditure of time, energy, and experimentation to achieve.

That word is "difficult."

 

[Rat Catcher]

I already know the answer to these, and the plain truth of it is, it involves a lot of trial and error.

That's how I learned to play. I'd been playing nearly a year when I first joined the forum - and only came here because I needed help (probably the same reason as many) to find out something I didn't understand. (and that the game didn't help with)

I still don't use many external references. Inara keeps track of my ships etc. ED Discovery sends my wanderings off to EDSM and EDDN and occasionally I'll look at EDDB for commodity prices / availability. But, without doubt, these external reference sources have made some aspects of playing much easier than those early days, so I'm not complaining, quite the opposite.

 

[Greasetrap42]

But I'm also not sure it reflects well on the game that third-party intervention is basically essential.

I haven't played WoW in about 8 years. Loved the game but:

• Absolutely essential 3rd party addons. Common to have a dozen running.
• Had to learn to make automated macros using their little macro language.
• Internet guides for building your character class. Essential. Equipment & abilities for maximizing dps.
• Internet guides necessary for quests. So many were broken or obscure.
• Internet guides necessary for dungeons & raids. Otherwise you are useless and get left behind.
• 95% of internet info obsolete. Wide sweeping changes with expansions, obsoleting internet info.

I loved the game. Interesting to note that ED pales in comparison to the 3rd party tools and addons. And it is a wildly popular game.

 

[Florenus]

You can play without them. And certain things, like the newer commodities market UI, have more information than they used to, which is good.

But "easily" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, and I'm not sure it rings true for the vast majority of players.

Explain to me how you find, without using a third party tool, a particular class of module that you need for your ship if the station you're at isn't selling it? Or build reliable trade routes? Or learn which specific activities provide which specific G5 mats?

This is a bit rhetorical - again, been playing since beta, so I already know the answer to these, and the plain truth of it is, it involves a lot of trial and error. There is definitely a subset of player for whom that kind of thing has real appeal, and I'm not knocking it, per se.

But there's a word for something that requires the dedicated expenditure of time, energy, and experimentation to achieve.

That word is "difficult."

You wrote, and I quoted you, that it's "essential". I said it isn't.
Sure it's easier to use those third party tools. Most of all they save you time.
But by using those tools you change the game for yourself. I'm not sure if in a good way, so that's why I try not to use them. And I might not find module or cheap tritium instantly, but having that option doesn't make the game necessarily better.

I also said that I acknowledge the fact that this game has steep learning curve, because without learning mechanics somewhere out of the game (like for example how material gathering works) every new player would be required to reinvent the wheel on his own.

 

[baneofcows]

I haven't played WoW in about 8 years. Loved the game but:

This is a good comparison!

I'm not sure it reflects well on WoW either, that all those things were necessary. And when I say "not sure" here, I mean that in the most literal sense possible - I'm really not sure. Some people would say that the gaps the community fills for ED players is absolutely a feature, not a bug. I'm not sure of that, either.

 

[baneofcows]

You wrote, and I quoted you, that it's "essential". I said it isn't.

Right, so, the word I used that was doing heavy lifting there was "basically." Basically essential.

'Cause we're not really talking about a literal requirement to use or not use third party tools, right? We're talking about the number of players, especially more recent ones, who would have noped out on that steep learning curve absent of those tools.

So, like, I feel pretty comfortable with my original assertion. ED without community help probably is too difficult. I don't think that's particularly controversial.

I do also think it's improved, though. I came back to the game a few months ago after a long absence because some friends of mine wanted to get into it, and playing all the new tutorials before diving back in was a godsend. So, you know. Baby steps.

 

[Florenus]

Right, so, the word I used that was doing heavy lifting there was "basically." Basically essential.

'Cause we're not really talking about a literal requirement to use or not use third party tools, right? We're talking about the number of players, especially more recent ones, who would have noped out on that steep learning curve absent of those tools.

So, like, I feel pretty comfortable with my original assertion. ED without community help probably is too difficult. I don't think that's particularly controversial.

I do also think it's improved, though. I came back to the game a few months ago after a long absence because some friends of mine wanted to get into it, and playing all the new tutorials before diving back in was a godsend. So, you know. Baby steps.

I think there's important distinction for me there.
The game has steep learning curve and it doesn't help people a lot, so new players might feel overwhelmed without 3rd party sites with tutorials to guide them.
But there are also 3rd party tools you've mentioned, like "Inara, EDDB or CMDRsToolBox" - and I absolutely don't think it's "essential", or "basically essential" to use them.
They are like cheats or like playing a game with walkthrough. It's so very easy to use them and it's so tempting, that it's no surprise majority of players use them, but they have changed how we perceive the game. By using them everyone is taking shortcuts and skipping part of the game. If you've been playing since beta, than you've probably played without them at least for a while, so you probably know that it's almost different game without them. You need to approach it differently. If you're in a hurry then it becomes very tempting to use them, but I wouldn't say it has anything to do with difficulty.

 

[baneofcows]

They are like cheats or like playing a game with walkthrough. It's so very easy to use them and it's so tempting, that it's no surprise majority of players use them, but they have changed how we perceive the game. By using them everyone is taking shortcuts and skipping part of the game. If you've been playing since beta, than you've probably played without them at least for a while, so you probably know that it's almost different game without them. You need to approach it differently. If you're in a hurry then it becomes very tempting to use them, but I wouldn't say it has anything to do with difficulty.

Yeah, I think the precise reason this topic comes up for debate is that there are legitimate differences of opinion about the value of what's getting "skipped."

But also, like... difficulty takes many forms besides procedural complexity, right? Making something take more steps / time than it needs to, even if those steps are simple, is also a form of difficulty. Climbing stairs isn't difficult if you're able-bodied, in that the movements are simple. But climbing 50 steps is more difficult than climbing 25. Doing your taxes (in the United States, at least) is difficult not because adding and subtracting is hard, but because even the basic form has like thirty line items on it that you have to account for.

So, yeah, spending two hours bouncing around high tech stations for that multicannon turret you need is difficult. It's not difficult in the same way as flying with FA off is difficult. But it definitely contributes to the overall sense of difficulty.

Also, as a complete aside, "difficult" is definitely one of those words that stops looking like a real word if you type it enough. Yeesh.

 

[Florenus]

Yeah, I think the precise reason this topic comes up for debate is that there are legitimate differences of opinion about the value of what's getting "skipped."

But also, like... difficulty takes many forms besides procedural complexity, right? Making something take more steps / time than it needs to, even if those steps are simple, is also a form of difficulty. Climbing stairs isn't difficult if you're able-bodied, in that the movements are simple. But climbing 50 steps is more difficult than climbing 25. Doing your taxes (in the United States, at least) is difficult not because adding and subtracting is hard, but because even the basic form has like thirty line items on it that you have to account for.

So, yeah, spending two hours bouncing around high tech stations for that multicannon turret you need is difficult. It's not difficult in the same way as flying with FA off is difficult. But it definitely contributes to the overall sense of difficulty.

Also, as a complete aside, "difficult" is definitely one of those words that stops looking like a real word if you type it enough. Yeesh.

But that's one of the reasons why I think those tools change our perception of the game. You know it can be easy to find those modules, so looking for them longer than necessary seems like a drag, but if you change your approach, then it's slightly different thing. Like in Odyssey now - I don't think there are tools to help me find modified Grade3 suits and weapons (except people leaving notes on forum threads), so if I want to find something, I need to search for it - I can make it my main objective and get frustrated, or just look around while doing other things.
When it comes to trade, those tools skew player perception, because everything is about most efficient way to earn millions per hour. When flying without them, there's broader selection of opportunities that player might find interesting, simply because he might not be aware of META around corner.

 

[Morbad]

If we're talking the "real" ED where players spend as much time on Inara or EDDB or CMDRsToolBox or YT as they do actually logged into the game and doing something?

While I haven't totally abstained from 3rd party tools, I rarely use them. Most of what I know about the game comes from playing it and from those encountered within it. Of course, I also consider a thousand-hour learning curve, for a game I enjoy, to be entirely reasonable.

The game has never really been difficult, but I've always had issues with the nature of the difficulty that's existed, and these complaints have grown as the game has become more inflationary.

 

[Riverside]

Yeah, I think the precise reason this topic comes up for debate is that there are legitimate differences of opinion about the value of what's getting "skipped."

This is a good point.

The way I play, I want to explore the game & try to figure out the puzzles, to optimise whatever task I am doing. I enjoy that aspect of the game.

But I have friends who like to play for different reasons. Examples like PvP or Thargoid combat where there is an enormous amount of research, discovery & testing that goes into finding even a 'good' loadout let alone the effort that has gone into finding the best, the meta.

When I started playing there weren't (many) experienced players offering up solutions to various problems I encountered along the way, I had to figure them out for myself (just as those that wrote the first iterations of those how-to guides did).

There's nothing wrong with drawing from the pool of collective knowledge to fast-track to the fun part, provided those that do respect the effort that went into obtaining that information (that they personally skipped past).

I have little time for those that fast-track their way through the game then complain there's nothing to do or that the game is shallow though.

 

[baneofcows]

But that's one of the reasons why I think those tools change our perception of the game. You know it can be easy to find those modules, so looking for them longer than necessary seems like a drag, but if you change your approach, then it's slightly different thing. Like in Odyssey now - I don't think there are tools to help me find modified Grade3 suits and weapons (except people leaving notes on forum threads), so if I want to find something, I need to search for it - I can make it my main objective and get frustrated, or just look around while doing other things.
When it comes to trade, those tools skew player perception, because everything is about most efficient way to earn millions per hour. When flying without them, there's broader selection of opportunities that player might find interesting, simply because he might be not aware of META around corner.

FWIW, I think the pre-engineered Ody gear is a good example of a well-done difficulty curve, for the following reasons:

1.) I don't need engineered gear to do CZs, even high intensity CZs. (Let's not talk about missions for right now, heh)
2.) Almost any outpost you go to has a decent chance of having something useful, even if it's not the thing you're precisely looking for.
3.) Basic engineered gear without mods is still overall better than base gear.

So yeah, you still have to do some shopping around, but I feel like the rate of return is pretty good for the time spent. And I like that it gives me a specific reason to visit outposts vs. large stations when I'm traveling. Honestly, I kinda wish there were RNG G1-G3 ship modules available this same way.

As regards the tools changing people's perceptions of the game... I don't know, it seems to me like there's a chicken and egg thing going on. Early players of ED made those tools and were supported by the community precisely because there was widespread sentiment that parts of the game were more obtuse than they needed to be. I sincerely believe it was bound to happen. New players get the benefit of that, and yeah, it means they don't have the experience those early players had.

But like, in the absence of those tools, I don't think we'd have a lot of new people coming in and going, "Oh, this is supposed to be hard because it's a sim!" and just living with that. Like, I think people use the tools precisely because they see what the game is "supposed" to be like and reject that for whatever reason.

So, case in point, I mentioned earlier I got back into the game because a couple friends of mine wanted to get into it. I can tell you for sure that if I'd left them to their own devices and been like, "have fun with the tutorial, let me know when you know what you're doing so we can play together," we'd be short two CMDRs right now. Instead I sent them a Google doc with a bunch of info resources, websites, etc.

So now, we've got a healthy pair of mid-game players, one of whom has done even way more engineering than I have, Guardian tech unlocks, etc., and may be an overall better Elite player than I ever have been.

I gotta say, if my choice is between "let the difficulty curve cull whomever it culls" and "use all the websites so I can have in-game friends," like... I'll take the latter, any day.

 

[baneofcows]

Of course, I also consider a thousand-hour learning curve, for a game I enjoy, to be entirely reasonable.

I think the reason this topic is worth talking about is that I'm pretty sure you're not alone, and in this particular game's audience, folks like you are probably a statistically significant portion of the playerbase.

 

[Jack Winter]

Of course, in the future I'd use all my computer resources to research a ship before I buy it, or before I set out on a trading trip, so I'm really not very fuzzed about using 3rd party software. It seems totally normal to me.

 

[varonica]

I don't think I've ever played an MMO where 3rd party tools weren't available and used by a lot of players LOTRO, BDO, AO etc, they all had them and most players used them, ED isn't different in that regard. Sure you can play all of the games without them, it's a choice players make.

 

[Hexnibbler]

It's not difficult but one must accept failure to gain experience and become better. That was a common design philosophy in "old era" videogames and was replaced with a different one that tells player what to do and how to do it to reduce frustration.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

That's how I learned to play. I'd been playing nearly a year when I first joined the forum - and only came here because I needed help (probably the same reason as many) to find out something I didn't understand. (and that the game didn't help with)

I still don't use many external references. Inara keeps track of my ships etc. ED Discovery sends my wanderings off to EDSM and EDDN and occasionally I'll look at EDDB for commodity prices / availability. But, without doubt, these external reference sources have made some aspects of playing much easier than those early days, so I'm not complaining, quite the opposite.

Plenty of occasions to experience that. And when you thought you had figured it out, some update reverted mechanics and left you trying things that simply wouldn't work anymore. Playing ED felt more like playing an Early Access game. Minus the usual dev generosity about stuff that breaks or being able to roll back the "save".