It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

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Hey all,

I want to start this off with saying that I like the game and find it playable enough to have fun and I definitely got my money worth out of it. But in the last year, or more like since the horizons release, I feel like I'm in a positon where I have to write this here even tough my career goal is in the same area. I don't want to be offensive or anything, but this completely irks me and I simply can't understand what I'm going to say here, so maybe I will get some enlightment here.

What is actually happening in your development process, Frontier? I simply can't follow what takes so much time with what you actually create. But lets go through it!

Easier things first: Galnet is empty. I recently had to visualize some thesis about how to engage your community to co-create content with you. It seems like you completely missed every potential for that, seeing as how most of Galnet right now are summarizations of different stuff. You care about lore? Well, there's not much anymore. This was different once. And, to top it off, you have to go through all that summarization which won't interest you in the slightest if you are keen on lore. Why is the state so barren? Where is a simple writer to write out snippets of a pre-determined story? Where are incentives for user-creations? It feels like such a missed opportunity.

2) Powerplay + Engineering: There's enough criticism out there. From the endless grindfest² of Powerplay to the PvP-Balance gap of Engineered/Unengineered and need to do grindfest material gathering. The latter was patched to be made easier, but its still concerning on how the first iteration even came about. But, as said, not going into depth here. Powerplay was a missed opportunity and Engineering feels like forcing horizon(planet)-content.

3) Holo-Me. Finally! We have our character creator! It's well done and the transitions are nice, cudos to the programmers/artists/sound-designers. But now, after waiting half a year... microtransactions! Not a single available tattoo? Completely basic suits? I don't care you want to earn money with microtransactions, but to bring out such a anticipated feature with, in the end, half baked customization, feels awkward. It's a nice character creator, but it feels like theres not much, especially due to face limitation. I know, we don't see the character anyways, but if we already have a face-concentration, why are there so few options available? Like mentioned, no tatoos, no... future piercings, whatever the heck you can want. Again, it feels somewhat barebones and too limited. Why do I have to pay for some black ink in my face? Why are there just simple color variations of the most basic outfit? You really couldn't offer at least some *simple* alternatives? It feels... well, like a missed opportunity?

4) Multi-Crew. Yay, a friend can fly around with me! And... shoot some stuff with cannons. I really don't know what I expected. It's somewhat fun, but in the end... its... well... a missed opportunity for something more.

5) Planets. The current iterations we have. The great driving around on planets with some bases. So you obviously have a procedural generation for the planets. Who basically all look the same as they are moons. And don't feel different... as they are moons. It's fine. I accept that. But again, everything feels absolutely the same. There's no difference from Moon A to B in terms of gameplay except some materials you actually scope (and the ruins-events). Missions on moons feel barebones too. Why aren't, at least in the bubble near populated systems, some generated human bases with turrets and protective fliers? Or anything at all. To not make it barebones. Because again, it feels... like a missed opportunity.

6) Ship Customization. Well, I literally can't do anything without buying anything out of the store with additional money. Theres not even anything ingame to obtain to customize my ship. What is this? Why, just why, aren't there some goals? Your playerbase is big. There aren't only grinders who try this game out. You have to hook people to want some progression other than money(and thus ships). Its like the most basic concept one can think of. What happened here? Its, again, a missed opportunity and makes it feel even more cash-shoppy.

7) Background-Simulation. What is actually happening here? In the terms of "what does it actually do" ?. What is your code doing? We obviously don't have something persistent thats interacting with the players at all. We have some number tweeking with wares and minor faction influences and their spreading. Different people will have their own reasons to join powerplay and help minor factions, mainly due to roleplay reasons. That's cool, at least. But the Background-Simulation really feels to fall flat and to serve no real purpose concerning wares and trade.
But Minor Factions! I can have my own? AWESOME. Except for people who have to wait over 3 months to have it inserted. I simply can NOT comprehend how the insertion can last this long. I'm still waiting and I have no problems doing so, but others clearly want them integrated. So, you obviously have lists every time of, lets say, 30 new minor factions of players. You can't tell me that you can't take one guy after checking availability to simply insert them into the game for the next update. There has to be some interface in your code for this. There must be. I can't believe that you are writing code snippets for every insertion. Where is the automated system after accepting and checking? (Or even accepting and checking too).

8) 3rd-party Tools. Half of the time when trading I have to check on another website OUTSIDE the game where I can get something. Why? Its some g time in the future where everything is connected in some way(see Galnet) - But there is no ingame function to actually check that stuff? This seems like the first thing stations would want to publish to sell goods and get more traffic. Not to mention resource-route determination. Why do I have to switch OUT of the game to get stuff done efficiently? You clearly want me to loose every immersion possible, right? Failed opportunity.

9) I had something here, but I don't remember because the forum deleted half of my post after submitting and I'm loosing my steam. Passengers, Pirate Interdactions, you name it. But it was something different. Anyways, I wanted to get at the following:

Something is clearly wrong. And I mean clearly! I don't know what part in your team screws up though. Something has to. All the time since horizons release and it basically still feels like the absolute same game for me. Some small additions, but nothing big. Everything underwhelming, awkward or too obstruse to not be worth the effort. Why? Is management forcing bad decisions about the team? Are your game designers strictly bad because the different game modules all seem so barebones? Are they maybe limited by upper management and thus can't create creatively?
Obviously you are doing bug fixing. And adding content. But its so slow! Its so barebones! It's so underwhelming! I feel disappointed after every patch. This is a feeling your customer should not have. And I simply don't know what you are doing that its ending up like this. Some problem area I think has to be identified. Hell, at the current rate I even suspect that most developers are at Planet Safari and Planet Coasters and this game is being done on the side for some money upkeep and future possibilities. What the hell has gone wrong that I am thinking of this possibility?

As I said, I didn't want to come off as offensive. But I also want to know what others feel about this issue.
I will be going to bed so I won't comment immediately, but thanks for reading!
Fly safe! o7
 
Hey all,

I want to start this off with saying that I like the game and find it playable enough to have fun and I definitely got my money worth out of it. But in the last year, or more like since the horizons release, I feel like I'm in a positon where I have to write this here even tough my career goal is in the same area. I don't want to be offensive or anything, but this completely irks me and I simply can't understand what I'm going to say here, so maybe I will get some enlightment here.

What is actually happening in your development process, Frontier? I simply can't follow what takes so much time with what you actually create. But lets go through it!

Easier things first: Galnet is empty. I recently had to visualize some thesis about how to engage your community to co-create content with you. It seems like you completely missed every potential for that, seeing as how most of Galnet right now are summarizations of different stuff. You care about lore? Well, there's not much anymore. This was different once. And, to top it off, you have to go through all that summarization which won't interest you in the slightest if you are keen on lore. Why is the state so barren? Where is a simple writer to write out snippets of a pre-determined story? Where are incentives for user-creations? It feels like such a missed opportunity.

2) Powerplay + Engineering: There's enough criticism out there. From the endless grindfest² of Powerplay to the PvP-Balance gap of Engineered/Unengineered and need to do grindfest material gathering. The latter was patched to be made easier, but its still concerning on how the first iteration even came about. But, as said, not going into depth here. Powerplay was a missed opportunity and Engineering feels like forcing horizon(planet)-content.

3) Holo-Me. Finally! We have our character creator! It's well done and the transitions are nice, cudos to the programmers/artists/sound-designers. But now, after waiting half a year... microtransactions! Not a single available tattoo? Completely basic suits? I don't care you want to earn money with microtransactions, but to bring out such a anticipated feature with, in the end, half baked customization, feels awkward. It's a nice character creator, but it feels like theres not much, especially due to face limitation. I know, we don't see the character anyways, but if we already have a face-concentration, why are there so few options available? Like mentioned, no tatoos, no... future piercings, whatever the heck you can want. Again, it feels somewhat barebones and too limited. Why do I have to pay for some black ink in my face? Why are there just simple color variations of the most basic outfit? You really couldn't offer at least some *simple* alternatives? It feels... well, like a missed opportunity?

4) Multi-Crew. Yay, a friend can fly around with me! And... shoot some stuff with cannons. I really don't know what I expected. It's somewhat fun, but in the end... its... well... a missed opportunity for something more.

5) Planets. The current iterations we have. The great driving around on planets with some bases. So you obviously have a procedural generation for the planets. Who basically all look the same as they are moons. And don't feel different... as they are moons. It's fine. I accept that. But again, everything feels absolutely the same. There's no difference from Moon A to B in terms of gameplay except some materials you actually scope (and the ruins-events). Missions on moons feel barebones too. Why aren't, at least in the bubble near populated systems, some generated human bases with turrets and protective fliers? Or anything at all. To not make it barebones. Because again, it feels... like a missed opportunity.

6) Ship Customization. Well, I literally can't do anything without buying anything out of the store with additional money. Theres not even anything ingame to obtain to customize my ship. What is this? Why, just why, aren't there some goals? Your playerbase is big. There aren't only grinders who try this game out. You have to hook people to want some progression other than money(and thus ships). Its like the most basic concept one can think of. What happened here? Its, again, a missed opportunity and makes it feel even more cash-shoppy.

7) Background-Simulation. What is actually happening here? In the terms of "what does it actually do" ?. What is your code doing? We obviously don't have something persistent thats interacting with the players at all. We have some number tweeking with wares and minor faction influences and their spreading. Different people will have their own reasons to join powerplay and help minor factions, mainly due to roleplay reasons. That's cool, at least. But the Background-Simulation really feels to fall flat and to serve no real purpose concerning wares and trade.
But Minor Factions! I can have my own? AWESOME. Except for people who have to wait over 3 months to have it inserted. I simply can NOT comprehend how the insertion can last this long. I'm still waiting and I have no problems doing so, but others clearly want them integrated. So, you obviously have lists every time of, lets say, 30 new minor factions of players. You can't tell me that you can't take one guy after checking availability to simply insert them into the game for the next update. There has to be some interface in your code for this. There must be. I can't believe that you are writing code snippets for every insertion. Where is the automated system after accepting and checking? (Or even accepting and checking too).

8) 3rd-party Tools. Half of the time when trading I have to check on another website OUTSIDE the game where I can get something. Why? Its some g time in the future where everything is connected in some way(see Galnet) - But there is no ingame function to actually check that stuff? This seems like the first thing stations would want to publish to sell goods and get more traffic. Not to mention resource-route determination. Why do I have to switch OUT of the game to get stuff done efficiently? You clearly want me to loose every immersion possible, right? Failed opportunity.

9) I had something here, but I don't remember because the forum deleted half of my post after submitting and I'm loosing my steam. Passengers, Pirate Interdactions, you name it. But it was something different. Anyways, I wanted to get at the following:

Something is clearly wrong. And I mean clearly! I don't know what part in your team screws up though. Something has to. All the time since horizons release and it basically still feels like the absolute same game for me. Some small additions, but nothing big. Everything underwhelming, awkward or too obstruse to not be worth the effort. Why? Is management forcing bad decisions about the team? Are your game designers strictly bad because the different game modules all seem so barebones? Are they maybe limited by upper management and thus can't create creatively?
Obviously you are doing bug fixing. And adding content. But its so slow! Its so barebones! It's so underwhelming! I feel disappointed after every patch. This is a feeling your customer should not have. And I simply don't know what you are doing that its ending up like this. Some problem area I think has to be identified. Hell, at the current rate I even suspect that most developers are at Planet Safari and Planet Coasters and this game is being done on the side for some money upkeep and future possibilities. What the hell has gone wrong that I am thinking of this possibility?

As I said, I didn't want to come off as offensive. But I also want to know what others feel about this issue.
I will be going to bed so I won't comment immediately, but thanks for reading!
Fly safe! o7

Have a rep!
Now take a prismatic shield and some shieldcells because the swarm is coming.....
 
LMAO - I end my threads with please be nice !

1. Galnet Agree
2. Agree
3. Don't want holo me waste of time, power play as a missed op Agree.
4. Is boring and didn't want.
5. Agree.
6. I have a cunning plan for a new staion builder/transporter ship ! More Engineers that can actually build stuff like slots etc
7. Yeah Agree - I build Databases really really big ones, so I would really like to know whats going on as I don't see much apart from some dice rolling !
8. Totally Agree - without 3rd party software I'd be fooked !
9. LMAO - X3 TC was really getting to the point where the storey was great the action well balanced, you could board ships with marines and lastly you had a HOME that you could build and store stuff in.

Also I want hyperspace beacons so that I can pinpoint a jump near a body (say 10 max) - some way of looking at what another system has to offer in trading - and above all some way of ordering the Missions/Transactions screen (sorting by system for instance)
So sick of taking a mission to find out is only 300,000 ls to the target ! SOBS
 
Apart from the wall-of-text I agree with the OP. There does seem to have been a lot of missed opportunities and a mucking-up of many of the great aspects of the game with some disparate and (to me) misguided diversions (CQC, engineers, etc). I suppose F D know what the majority of their players use / do in game, but the apparent concentration on combat disappoints me.

Time for F D to revamp their engagement with the players I think (and no offence meant to Ed et all but I really don't think the way to do it is in live-streams).
 
I agree with every point you've made. I can't help but think that now that they have all these systems, the focus should be on making them connect. Each system is cool on its own, but still underwhelming. I think that it'd be nice if now FD started to shift towards stitching the features together, like say add a minor feature next update, for instance, ship racing, and make the large part of the update be an improved economy system and BGS upgrades. Then the update after that can be just pure new features, say atmospheric landings, then the update after that is again, minor feature with major thing being to connect existing systems.

As it stands, I can't help but think that the person who decides what gets worked on next is just picking what sounds cool, and then when it comes to implementation, they lose interest because they never had any details thought out in the first place. Might be strange to say this as it's kind of self-contradicting, but perhaps FD shouldn't be letting their desired features be determined based on what the community wants, more often than not the ideas are too specific to be useful, instead they ought to think about what they feel is the next logical step in development and how it builds upon the current state of the game.

I think Warframe is a great example of this kind of design strategy, they listen to their community and are open to ideas, but more often than not, their updates have things that people didn't realize they wanted or otherwise, in general just liked.
 
Hi Fatalution: I'm old and don't get this comment can you explain it to me as I'm a child of the 60's "10 white knights of this forum"
 
+1 agree.

Trouble is, FD won;t even consider listening to opinions and views like this (ie common sense), instead they opt for their way (flawed) and not listen to the very people that allow them to continue to build and grow (without fixing i might add).

Micro transactions - hell. Really bad marketing in my view -
 
Something is clearly wrong. And I mean clearly! I don't know what part in your team screws up though. Something has to. All the time since horizons release and it basically still feels like the absolute same game for me. Some small additions, but nothing big. Everything underwhelming, awkward or too obstruse to not be worth the effort. Why? Is management forcing bad decisions about the team? Are your game designers strictly bad because the different game modules all seem so barebones? Are they maybe limited by upper management and thus can't create creatively?
Obviously you are doing bug fixing. And adding content. But its so slow! Its so barebones! It's so underwhelming! I feel disappointed after every patch. This is a feeling your customer should not have. And I simply don't know what you are doing that its ending up like this.

In a nutshell, Frontier is developing new features instead of fleshing out the base game first. They continually ignore developing the core features of the game to instead tack on additional features over a lacking base game construct. The result is why Elite has the “mile wide but inch deep” meme attached to it. The majority of the game itself has not changed much at all since 1.0, there have just been some additional features added to the already barebones main game, the majority of which are combat features. It’s why you (and many others) feel like the game is stagnant and hasn’t changed in a long time, because truthfully, the main mechanics of the game have not changed in a long time.

Now, is this a result of bad design choices, or is it intentional on Frontier’s end? That’s a question that we the players can’t truly answer, only Frontier can.

I personally wish that Frontier would change course and improve the game’s foundations before building new houses upon half finished foundations….
 
OP, totally agreed

Sad part: FDev won't even bother listening to your post and will rely on about 10 white knights of this forum who will diminish your purely logical and objective wording to "don't like it = don't play it", "leave" and other often found under fairly logical and well-worded posts that point out obvious bad sides of this game, number of which diminishes the good sides it has.

I wish you courage, luck and patience

Ain't that the truth!

Comments like "Why should they have to work on a holiday weekend too keep an eye on a "Space Game"? Is so ignorant on its face that I seriously have no words in response to someone with such obvious deminished mental capacities.

Elite Dangers IS a PRODUCT! It is SOLD for $$$! - The decision was made to make it ONLINE ONLY! That decision was not one the original pre-release community wanted! WE wanted an OFF-LINE component, so that we would not be at the mercy of buggy server farms and four day bank holiday weekends to hamper access to this game!

Well.. Frontier made the decision to go Online Only, and that forever sealed their fate in terms of their responsibility to their paying customer base when it comes to maintaining that online only access.

As much as I like the people at Frontier and never miss one of their live stream events, I simply can't forgive the way 2.3 and these last four days have been handled. It is simply inexcusable and I strongly believe that their should be a formal apology made in writing no later than tomorrow on this forum from David Braben!
 
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The game design process makes a lot more sense when you look at it from the point of view of the minimum viable product necessary to maximise the profitability, rather than to make an enjoyable long term gaming experience. It's a cash cow based on brand recognition, like damn near every major game and movie for the last decade. It's not a "passion project" or "braben's baby" or whatever other silly byline they threw out to goad in the whales. Every feature, first and foremost, is designed with the thought "how can we make money from this?" as opposed to "how will this enhance the gameplay experience?" The latter thought barely makes it in the end if they have time, if it even gets asked at all.
 
Hi Fatalution: I'm old and don't get this comment can you explain it to me as I'm a child of the 60's "10 white knights of this forum"

I prefer the traditional term of "Apologist". If the world was left up to them, we would be drowning in sewage, air pollution and pseudo science bull crap. While they go on their merry way pretending everything is honeysuckle and roses .... Wait a minute! .. ;)

Sounds like we are from the same generation? (Born in the late 50s)

At least we got a good 40 years when this world and planet still truly rocked! Boy I sure miss those days!
 
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1. Galnet is empty: I remember the days before the old Emperor died and I would log on just to see how the situation developed. It was a real joy reading GalNet back then. So I agree... Player-made content is great, but doesn't exactly mean there should be less news from the official side.

2. I can't say much on engineering & power play. I've played Elite for a long time, but though I like the game, I've also taken it slowly. I tried both for a week or so and my ships are a bitty modified, but I didn't feel like it was a grind. I went to the engineer when I had the stuff at hand, not search for the stuff. Ships are pretty good as they are. And Powerplay? Well, all will sort itself out as the universe wants it.

3. I disagree that the character editor is well done. It is quite basic and the last thing I want is more facial tattoo options. (Who wears those anyway???) If all our characters would stand next to each other I suspect that charges of incest wouldn't be far-fatched, as the options aren't great. (I mean, compare it with EVE, AION or Black Desert character editor. I don't know what they plan for it in the future. It must probably still be viable if 100 players are in the same place. But atm it is not impressive.

4. Multi Crew is boring. Yeah. Fighter pilot is kind of OK. There should be options for more roles, especially non-combat roles. (Navigator, Engineer, Science Officer)

5. I'm mainly an explorer and hope for more exploration features... So I'm with you. ;)

6. While I agree, most prices except for the ship kits at least are pretty low.

7. Waiting for 3 months? I can't even remember how long we have been waiting without any result so far.

8. There should be something like a trade computer ingame that at least catches prices, demand etc when you have been to a station. At least for some time. Basically the same what the third party tools do. So you could scout an area ingame and then go and trade.

To sum it up: Elite Dangerous is a very enjoyable game for me, but I think every part of it needs some love and I think they are trying to draw the wrong players into the game (The ADS generation).

But that's just my opinion and we'll see what happens.
 
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100% agree.

The problem with Frontier's philoophy is basically this:
If it's popular and we can make money out of it -> We'll make some quality content very soon™

Rather than

We'll make some quality content -> So that we can make money out of it

Add to this formula an abysmal game design with very questionable choices, lack of vision, archaic thinking and terrible development priorities and here you go, all problems of Elite are explained.
 
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As much as I love ED and it has probably been the best value for money game I've ever bought I do feel the OP has a lot of valid points.
The sense of wonder at what the future would hold after landing on my first planet has changed to a shrug after another update with nothing in it for me.
 
I'm starting to notice that the loudest critics of ED after 2.3 are primarily the vets who have been with this project since the Kickstarter.

That should send a few chills down the spine of the recent arrivals, and quite possibly the usual suspects of resident Apologists.

I don't like being this negative about a game I play more than any other in literally 2 decades! I built a $4500.00 PC specifically to play this game at MAX settings, no holds bared 4k goodness at 65"OLED!

I would have never done that for any other game but this one. I'm a Mac user, I typically despise Windows for its bloated, antiquated unreliability! (Now that I own another Windows PC, I can see that my opinion needs no adjustments even 25 years later) ;)

But seriously... Frontier has some damage control to do after this latest 4 day long server outage/buggabo. I hope they don't squander a perfect opportunity to reach out to fans, give them a strong and clear vision of what is coming, while basically deciding once and for all to make some much needed changes to the direction this train has been running.
 
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