Keep Cheap Ships Relevant with More Internal Upgrades

[Sewer Shark]

Selective perception on your part, otherwise you would have read and thought about the following:

I'm sorry, my eyes reflexively roll all the way into my skull when I read things like "established lore" when talking about tweaking existing game mechanics. Makes it hard to read.

So your counter-suggestion is, what, basically a more-complicated version of what I suggested? Ok, good? I mean, sure yeah, wonderful. Sounds like more work than what I was suggesting and comes with problems like, does FD make new models or just slap numbers on the same models and market them as "new"? If the former, that's going to take ages and if the latter, people will complain up a storm about it. What is it about these new models that lets you fit a better Power Plant or Shields? Why not just make better shields for the existing ship, it's plug-and-play as it is.

Why you didn't just post that first thing, I may never know.

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I would like to see different versions of the Eagle and Viper with the exact same internal slots but with the ability to fit a large power plant. Having those ships without their inherent power issues would make them able to hold their own later in the game.

I'm fine with this, mostly. Being able to fit the hungrier weapons and modules without sacrificing so much in performance would certainly help.

 

[Distance]

The Eagle would still be limited to C1 weapons and Viper to C2 but would open a lot of options. It's not even a massive boost in power as an eagle would go from 9.60 to 12 and the viper from 12 to 15.60, you'd still have problems running bigger weapons with scanners or boosters and keeping the power distributors where they are would limit the ships so they're not overpowered.

 

[Lasse B.]

@Sewer Shark

In a posting belonging to another topic, Mike Evans wrote:

(...) how a pilot in this universe would interact with their ship.

IMHO this shows quite clearly they care a great deal about making design decisions that fit into the "world" of the year 3300. This in turn means that anything sold in the shipyards, at outfitters or in the commodities market would have to abide by the laws of the market. Granted they still have rather big problems coming up with a believable supply & demand system and stock numbers and prices that reflect this, but I'm quite certain they'll get this sorted eventually. I remember having read several times now that the current E is just the bare minimum. It would only be fair to FD if we kept that in mind. (But why they insist on selling at full price anyway is beyond me.)

Back to our market. Would a manufacturer have motivation to produce a high end, pricey module? Quite possibly, be it huge sale numbers or a steep price. But then he'd sell it to everybody who's willing to pay and not limit himself to pilots who fly a cheap ship. So we'd need to artificially limit more expensive ships from fitting the best of these performance enhancing modules. How would this limit be explained? It's kinda like telling an Enzo Ferrari driver that he can't get a certain tuning kit because it would make his car too overpowered, but the guy driving a Beetle can get it just fine.

Or maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong. What would your "in game" explanation be for limiting ship performance enhancing highest power, highest cost modules to cheap ships?



PS:
Giving existing ships a makeover would be more work, but it can always be based on existing models and require only slight modifications of them, so this additional work should be manageable.

 

[Sewer Shark]

@Sewer Shark
In a posting belonging to another topic, Mike Evans wrote...

This sounded to me not like some sort of overarching design decision regarding realistic markets and the feel of ships but more like they were speaking literally, as in the ship UI and how you control your ship, ie; how you plot a course, engage in ship systems and menus. Then I clicked the little link and lo and behold, that's exactly what the quote is in reply to; ship UI. And I agree with him, he's done a pretty good job of making it feel like I am navigating the Ship's internal controls and less like I am using a Game UI. Taking that and then extrapolating into "All things must obey the market" and "Ergo ship obsolescence" is an enormous reach, requiring several jumps in logic that I don't agree with. Namely that a desire for a consistent-feeling world automatically necessitates a strict adherence to the "laws of the market" and that these "laws of the market" mean that no one would ever build custom parts for cheaper ships and then furthermore that due to this somehow even if someone did manage to upgrade an eagle that, magically, this means that they can upgrade a Clipper by the same amount. Nevermind that these parts have to be specific to the cheap ships or even custom at all.

To borrow your car analogy, I am not proposing that a Fabricator somehow magically create a Super Engine exclusive to 1998 Toyota Carollas. I'm suggesting we rip the guts out of that beloved 1998 Toyata Carolla, and throw in the engine of a Ferrari and probably some other after-market stuff too and nevermind that we've basically gutted it down to its shell and stuffed another car inside, it's still our Grandfather's Axe.

In-game explanation? "The bleeding technological edge of spaceship performance has been reached, and it just so happens that this edge is about how a fully-fitted Fer-de-Lance performs. And for the low, low price of 50 million credits, we can drag your Viper to the bleeding edge, too."

 

[Lasse B.]

For me it reads like they're aiming for a believable game world which the ship UI is just a tiny part of (but just happens to be the focus of the topic the message was posted in). Is it really too far fetched to think they're applying the same principle to other aspects of the game as well?

Ah, so you're talking about completely revamping a ship's interiors. Not just the modules, but the wiring, replacing materials where necessary and maybe even a more efficient use of internal space. The "Internal Upgrades" you wrote about in your original posting read more like plugging some magical booster thingie into one of the internal compartment slots to receive a flat out bonus on your ship's stats and maximum equipment class. Since that's not the case (phew) and you're looking for some kind of ship tuner shop, I have to say this could actually work. If you were looking to tune something like the FdL you'd get diminishing returns similar to trying to tune a Mercedes-AMG even further. The more I think about this... yeah, that would work.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

No, just no. With the higher cost of the higher tier ships and their even higher outfitting cost there is every justification of outclassing the cheaper lower tier ships. With all ships more or less equal you would also have to level the costs. Again, no.

 

[Sewer Shark]

For me it reads like they're aiming for a believable game world which the ship UI is just a tiny part of (but just happens to be the focus of the topic the message was posted in). Is it really too far fetched to think they're applying the same principle to other aspects of the game as well?

Ah, so you're talking about completely revamping a ship's interiors. Not just the modules, but the wiring, replacing materials where necessary and maybe even a more efficient use of internal space. The "Internal Upgrades" you wrote about in your original posting read more like plugging some magical booster thingie into one of the internal compartment slots to receive a flat out bonus on your ship's stats and maximum equipment class. Since that's not the case (phew) and you're looking for some kind of ship tuner shop, I have to say this could actually work. If you were looking to tune something like the FdL you'd get diminishing returns similar to trying to tune a Mercedes-AMG even further. The more I think about this... yeah, that would work.

Yep, this is basically what I want. A tuning shop, more or less. I don't particularly care what form it takes so long as it gets the job done.

No, just no. With the higher cost of the higher tier ships and their even higher outfitting cost there is every justification of outclassing the cheaper lower tier ships. With all ships more or less equal you would also have to level the costs. Again, no.

If you'd read what I wrote, you'd see that my proposed Upgraded Viper-as-good-as-an-FDL would cost roughly in the ballpark of, shock of shocks, a fitted FDL. Thus maintaining the cost-to-performance ratio and protecting the Space Romneys' need to crush the dirty Space Poors. Only now they can do it in whatever flavor of combat-capable ship they prefer rather than everyone flying FDLs because to do otherwise is handicap yourself.

 

[Commander Garonis]

I think the OP is wanting the ability to make a Millennium Falcon, an iconic, thoroughly non standard YT-1300 light freighter. It would take time, and lots of money, and a bit of luck I think, but the idea is sound.

 

[FuzzySpider]

If you'd read what I wrote, you'd see that my proposed Upgraded Viper-as-good-as-an-FDL would cost roughly in the ballpark of, shock of shocks, a fitted FDL. Thus maintaining the cost-to-performance ratio and protecting the Space Romneys' need to crush the dirty Space Poors. Only now they can do it in whatever flavor of combat-capable ship they prefer rather than everyone flying FDLs because to do otherwise is handicap yourself.

So every single ship would be roughly capable of performing the same as any other?

So every time I run into a FDL I wouldn't know if he'd spent all his money on military upgrades or 150t cargo racks?

If I run into a Lakon he might have fully kitted it out with the latest in special engines making him more agile than my cobra?

In other words our ships aren't really ships anymore, they're just avatars. Basic shells around which we can construct the kind of vehicle we want.

This is a terrible idea. In fact this basically turns the game into WoW in space, with various "classes" (combat, trading, smuggling, pirating etc) created via module choices, but the "races" (the model of the ship) being anything you like.

 

[Sewer Shark]

I think the OP is wanting the ability to make a Millennium Falcon, an iconic, thoroughly non standard YT-1300 light freighter. It would take time, and lots of money, and a bit of luck I think, but the idea is sound.

I'm fine with this, too. Allow traders or bulk-smugglers to pack a bit of a surprise, or run as Q-Ships. Slightly outside of the scope of my suggestion but I am not opposed to more options!

So every single ship would be roughly capable of performing the same as any other?

So every time I run into a FDL I wouldn't know if he'd spent all his money on military upgrades or 150t cargo racks?

If I run into a Lakon he might have fully kitted it out with the latest in special engines making him more agile than my cobra?

In other words our ships aren't really ships anymore, they're just avatars. Basic shells around which we can construct the kind of vehicle we want.

This is a terrible idea. In fact this basically turns the game into WoW in space, with various "classes" (combat, trading, smuggling, pirating etc) created via module choices, but the "races" (the model of the ship) being anything you like.

Christ, there is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin. So let's just go in order.

1. No. Each ship, within its role, would be as capable as most other ship within its role. More or less. We don't need absolute parity, but enough to avoid complete obsolescence.

2. Maybe? I mean, how is that any different from now? You've literally described a situation that can happen in the game as it is this very moment, excepting that I have no idea what the max cargo tonnage of an FDL is. And I don't really care.

3. Not really within the scope of my suggestion, as you would have known if you'd read what I've posted. I can't speak to Trade Ships, not my thing, and I wouldn't know where to begin at making each one useful beyond being stepping stones to the Type 9, considering "More Cargo" is about all you want in a Trade Ship.

4. Not within the scope of my suggestion, but instead a position you've invented whole-cloth to rail against.

5. Good gracious. FD should hope and pray that their game is as popular as World of Warcraft was at its prime. It was, and perhaps still is, an unquestionable financial and commercial success rivaled by few and sought by many. THAT BEING SAID, it would take a lot more than "customizable ships" to turn this game into WoW, because if that were all it took then this game is basically already WoW anyway. Nevermind the fact that customizable ships are the opposite of classes, you dork. What we have now is more akin to classes. Customizable ships would be more akin to Ultima Online. Lastly, this isn't what I suggested at all, please practice reading comprehension.

The Scope of my suggestion is basically this: Allow cheaper ships to fit expensive modules that let them perform somewhere in the ballpark of their more expensive cousins, maintaining price-performance ratio. It would probably boil down to tougher shields and a bigger power plant or distributer but whatever, not my job to dig that deep. Now, it doesn't have to be modules. It could be a tuning shop, or whatever. The point is that no ship becomes a Stepping Stone, obsolete once you can afford to leave it. This maintains ship diversity and allows users to fly what they like rather than what they have to just to compete. And it gives people a reason to actually spend five bucks on paint jobs for something like the Sidewinder, a ship no one flies unless they have to.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

My opinion still stands. Especially Power Plant and Power Distributor are limited by their compartment size, period. Avoiding obsolence isn't to be achieved by equalizing in-class. In raw fighting power the Eagle should no way be on par with the Viper, Vulture, FDL. Rather invent now roles and mission types for those ships that are now only stepping stones in which they are best. A small ship could be the ideal tool to transport secret data or do spy missions, things that rely on a small profile and fast speed, while bigger ships would face detection and resulting combat more often.

 

[FuzzySpider]

1. No. Each ship, within its role, would be as capable as most other ship within its role. More or less. We don't need absolute parity, but enough to avoid complete obsolescence.

Why avoid obsolescence? Cargo haulers aside, we're talking about one single ship in the game - the Eagle. And it is part of Elite lore that the Eagle is obsolete anyway.

The Eagle is a proven combat fighter with a distinguished history. It is one of the smallest fighters available with jump capability. It has the distinction of being the only ship that has been so successful versions have been built for both the Federation and Imperial navies. This role has been superseded by the respective navies' short range fighter programmes, but the Eagle still sees extensive service across human space. Core Dynamics are no longer building these ships, but do still provide parts and servicing due to their popularity.

If you think the viper, cobra, asp, FDL, vulture, anaconda, python, clipper, dropship, et all are obsolete then you've got to look again. The Eagle has a purpose as a trainer, teaching new players how to buy, outfit, balance, ships as well as how to deal with insurance and enter basic combat.

5. Good gracious. FD should hope and pray that their game is as popular as World of Warcraft was at its prime. It was, and perhaps still is, an unquestionable financial and commercial success rivaled by few and sought by many. THAT BEING SAID, it would take a lot more than "customizable ships" to turn this game into WoW, because if that were all it took then this game is basically already WoW anyway. Nevermind the fact that customizable ships are the opposite of classes, you dork. What we have now is more akin to classes. Customizable ships would be more akin to Ultima Online. Lastly, this isn't what I suggested at all, please practice reading comprehension.

It worked for WoW because that took place in the fantasy world of Azeroth. What you're suggesting is to start bringing magic into to sci-fi world of Elite. Seeing Eagles haul tonnes and tonnes of cargo, cobras refitted as capital ships with plasma weapons, and nimble anacondas outfitted as light fighters would completely break all immersion and roleplay elements of the game. As far as the universe and lore of Elite goes it would be Elite: Joke.

The Scope of my suggestion is basically this: Allow cheaper ships to fit expensive modules that let them perform somewhere in the ballpark of their more expensive cousins, maintaining price-performance ratio. It would probably boil down to tougher shields and a bigger power plant or distributer but whatever, not my job to dig that deep.

Well dig that deep now. I've already explained why this fails on immersion and roleplay elements, let me explain why it is even worse for gameplay. Let's consider another game, an arcade style arena shooter with vehicles. The sort of game where this might work; World of Tanks. Imagine implementing this sort of thing on that. Don't like the fact your Maus is so slow? Just drop all the armor and fit a great big engine! It can zoom around but because you've dropped the armor its still balanced. Hey, my Object 704 tank destroyer can't shoot things behind it. I'll just take the gun out and put a turret on...

Now what has happened? When people drive out into battle, and see enemies, they've no idea what they're going to fight. That maus could be a well armored but slow behemoth, or could be a pew pew pew tank. And that T-34, ohhh no, why does have a cannon the size of a tree on it? And where is it's turret?! Tactics, thought about how to deal with the various tanks when you face them.

Back to Elite; so I'm zooming along in my FDL, and I'm jumped by a trio of Eagles. Ok, I hope they're not spectacular pilots but even if they are this thing is grade A, I should be able to take them on. WHAM! In comes 2 large plasma shots and huge missile, ohh and for some reason they have managed to fit C3 beams, stripping the shield as that missile is on its way. Now as I explode in space, I have to look at the entire range of ships in a different light. Any ship could be anything. There are no longer roles for them. Tactics on how to deal with ships, ideas on how best to outfit them and how best to fulfill the role and match it with your own skillset, all gone.

Even on a gameplay level this idea completely fails. It would change Elite from being an immersive roleplaying space game into basically being a badly made and ill thought out Unreal Tournament mod.

 

[Sewer Shark]

My opinion still stands. Especially Power Plant and Power Distributor are limited by their compartment size, period. Avoiding obsolence isn't to be achieved by equalizing in-class. In raw fighting power the Eagle should no way be on par with the Viper, Vulture, FDL. Rather invent now roles and mission types for those ships that are now only stepping stones in which they are best. A small ship could be the ideal tool to transport secret data or do spy missions, things that rely on a small profile and fast speed, while bigger ships would face detection and resulting combat more often.

While I am fine with carving out niches for ships, those niches as yet do not exist and may never exist and the current trend FD is following points to further ship obsolescence down the line, if the Vulture and FDL are any indication, as well as all the howling about "progression" by subsections of the playerbase. Also, the Viper is made obsolete as well by the Vulture and FDL, which is where my bias lies at the moment.

*Four paragraphs of tilting at Windmills*

Please continue to invent things whole-cloth for you to fight valiantly against, because apparently it's easier than addressing my actual suggestion. The only Elite: Joke here is your posting in this thread.

 

[FuzzySpider]

While I am fine with carving out niches for ships, those niches as yet do not exist and may never exist and the current trend FD is following points to further ship obsolescence down the line, if the Vulture and FDL are any indication, as well as all the howling about "progression" by subsections of the playerbase. Also, the Viper is made obsolete as well by the Vulture and FDL, which is where my bias lies at the moment.

The Viper isn't obsolete, its far faster than the vulture and it is faster than the FDL. It fits its role as an interceptor, it simply isn't designed to go head to head on its own with the major combat ships.

The eagle has another use.

[/I]Please continue to invent things whole-cloth for you to fight valiantly against, because apparently it's easier than addressing my actual suggestion. The only Elite: Joke here is your posting in this thread.

The "whole-cloth" you keep going on about is an approximation of what you said. Here...

The Solution: Give all ships, but primarily the cheaper ships, more and increasingly expensive Internal Upgrades that allow them to perform at levels on par with fully-fitted Vultures and Fer-De-Lances (and other combat-fit vessels) or whatever the Next Big Thing becomes. Bigger, beefier power-plants, more thrusters, better Power distributers. Let me pour millions into my Eagle or Viper and trick it out into a crazy beast of a little fighter.

So basically you want to completely do away with actual combat ships as individual performing vessels with certain characteristics and shortcomings, by your own admission. You want to make combat not about the ship that heads in, but purely about the modules they carry with the various hulls they use being nothing more than avatars for those modules. This does away with immersion, lore, roleplay, strategy and basically Elite as we know it.

And the reason for this?

Unfortunately, the obsolescence removes variety and makes the game duller as a consequence. I have no reason anymore to fly my Viper, no reason to buy paint or decals for it or any of the other low-tier ships. Some players might not think this is a problem. Cheap ships should be outclassed by more expensive ships, they say! Well, screw that.

......

Make me want to buy those dumb Sidewinder paintjobs, FD.

Those ships look pretty.

 

[Sewer Shark]

So basically you want to completely do away with actual combat ships as individual performing vessels with certain characteristics and shortcomings, by your own admission. You want to make combat not about the ship that heads in, but purely about the modules they carry with the various hulls they use being nothing more than avatars for those modules. This does away with immersion, lore, roleplay, strategy and basically Elite as we know it.

I like how you read "Let the cheaper ships fit some stronger modules for an appropriate cost and/or have tuning shops to tweak ship performance" and you interperate this as "Let me put c3 guns on my eagle and also make it faster than a Viper", then you base your entire argument off this strawman. I can dismiss out of hand the claim that this would somehow destroy "strategy", as if without this careful balancing act of "upgrade all modules to A (except sensors and life support)" our house of cards would crumble. I certainly don't give a whit about "roleplay" or "lore" as arguments for or against game mechanics, as these things are so subjective as to be completely meaningless. The only thing being altered in my suggestion would be things things the player can already upgrade via modules. What I am suggesting is already in the game I am just suggesting they take it a step further. If it matters to FD, they can make sure such upgrades fall only within a ship's specific characteristics. But that's their decision.

Please construct a coherent argument that does not rely on inaccurate hyperbole.

Those ships look pretty.

Yes? And? Is this meant to be some sort of clever sting? I like to fly ships that look good. I wager so do a lot of people. If all the ships in Elite looked like garbage, I would not fly them. It ruins ~my immersion~, you see.

 

[JamesF0790]

Take it out of the space setting. Would you want an F4 Phantom to go up against an F35 Lightning? It just wouldn't work. No matter how you tune and tweak the Phantom it's simply inferior to the Lightning. That said a tweaking shop would be a sweet idea but I'd imagine it as within a fixed set of parameters and it'd have a down side so... just say you wanted to speed up the Sidewinder you'd have them remove some of the armour plating to reduce weight. Want it to be more manuverable without losing strength? Divert some of the flow from the engines to the thrusters. That sort of thing.

 

[Sewer Shark]

Take it out of the space setting. Would you want an F4 Phantom to go up against an F35 Lightning? It just wouldn't work. No matter how you tune and tweak the Phantom it's simply inferior to the Lightning.

The F4 Phantom is faster than the F35, allowing it to dictate combat. Furthermore, the F35 is a piece of hot garbage and an unmitigated disaster of an airplane. In simulations, it loses to the F15, an aircraft over four decades older than it. I would take the F4 Phantom, a proven and reliable jet fighter, over the scrap-heap that is the F35. Newer does not magically mean better in the real world.

Reality really has no bearing on this, thank goodness, because games are arbitrary and conform to parameters we set rather than objective constraints. We can tell the game to do whatever we want it to do and spin lore and "realism" to suit our needs. I mean, come on, a spaceship with a "top speed"? Please, such a thing does not exist in space. And yet we have them, and no one bats an eye.

But as to the tuning shop, sure. Tradeoffs sound reasonable.

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

I support this.

 

[Kowboat]

I would absolutely love more options for internal fittings and upgrades. As much as I enjoy flying the Vulture, I feel shackled to it in a way that I didn't feel with previous ships; I don't fly it because I like it more than my Cobra, I fly it because it's better, and that's really boring.

(Also yes the F35 is garbage)

 

[primezeta]

Balls to the wall

In my opinion, advanced internals for only selected ships would be a path towards game balance disaster.

Instead, I think maneuvering thrusters should be beefed up (especially on smaller ships like the ones mentioned in the OP) so that we can do maneuvers like shown in the silly trailer: pilot slams the stick to one side and instantly changes facing while continuing in the same direction in order to blast the enemy out of existence.

Imagine if smaller ships with greater maneuverability could do that! Then even skilled sidewinder pilots could compete against vultures. Blackout functionality is already in place which provides a built-in balance for excessively quick turns.