Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

[Morbad]

Hello Commanders!

A couple of points worth noting:

The block effect is asymmetrical, in that it is much stronger when the blocking player is arriving at a location where the blocked player already is - effectively more of the onus is on the blocker to change their game than the blocked player.

Instancing is a pretty complicated calculation, affected by a significant number of checks, such as instance populations, quality of player connections, friends, wing members, blocked players, blocking players, recent connections (and possibly more - far cleverer folk than me work this out). The weightings for these elements varies as well - wing membership, for example, is an extremely strong weighting towards allowing a match up.

Whilst I'm sure that to some degree matchmaking can be influenced, the complexity and number of elements completely out of the player's control (or even knowledge) are a strong limiting factor.

At the end of the day, ignoring players is a completely personal choice, that *influences* the chance of meeting ignored players, reducing the *potential* for match making with them.

Could the 'recent connections' factor explain the phenomena of wanted CMDRs not being winged with clean CMDRs, and vice versa, especially if a group of wanted CMDRs have been playing together, and one or more of the clean CMDRs has one or more of the wanted ones blocked?

Hello Commander CMDR ColD_ZA!

The chance of your evil wizardry causing you to not join an instance is (notwithstanding the multitude of other checks that I've mentioned) proportional to the number of Commander's in the instance who have blocked you.

The more folk who have blocked, the lower the chance of a match up.

So, how much weight is required to deny a wing member instancing with the rest of their wing?

More than once now I've encountered situations that strongly suggest my CMDR has been blocked by members of hostile wings, who held an instance and outnumbered my wing, specifically to keep him from being instanced with the CMDR or CMDRs he was escorting.

Specifically, how is a situation like this supposed to work:

CMDRs A & B, who are winged and friended, arrive at an instance populated by CMDRs 1, 2, 3, 4. The numbered CMDRs don't want to share, so their combat vessels attack and narrowly drive off CMDR B. CMDR A remains in instance, hidden (out of sensor/visual range, in an SRV, etc). CMDR B, after rearming, comes back, heads to the same location as his wing member, instances fine and counter attacks. Then CMDRs 1 through 4 all block CMDR B. CMDR A and CMDRs 1 through 4 are all still in the same instance, and A can observe all the others. The wing beacon is visible for B, but no matter how many times B tries to reinstance, he gets his own, empty instance. CMDR A must escape from CMDRs 1-4 on his/her own, get into supercruise, and then follow B into B's instance.

Can several blocks reliably cause instancing issues for a small wing as I have apparently seen?

 

[GreyAreaUK]

I can't see an MMO working without a block.

Apropos of nothing, but one of Elite's problems is, I think, that it's neither one thing nor the other. It isn't an MMO, but it has MMO aspects. It isn't a PVP game, but it has PVP aspects. It doesn't really fit into any of the conventional 'moulds' and, as such, it's tricky to nail down what should and should not happen or be allowed.

It is, to put it mildly, a bit of a burger.

 

[Stigbob]

Apropos of nothing, but one of Elite's problems is, I think, that it's neither one thing nor the other. It isn't an MMO, but it has MMO aspects. It isn't a PVP game, but it has PVP aspects. It doesn't really fit into any of the conventional 'moulds' and, as such, it's tricky to nail down what should and should not happen or be allowed.

It is, to put it mildly, a bit of a burger.

The only thing stopping it from being both is preconceptions carried over from other games, the original broke moulds and started an entirely new genre. ED is far less restrictive than other MMO's, choice is inherently a major part of ED and may become a new standard MMO feature.

It causes conflict when players can't adapt to ED and accept that other players are allowed to pick and choose.

Anyway drifting back towards the topic : blocking is great thanks Sandro.

 

[Schmack]

As I read through this thread the thought kept popping back into my head "why does this poster care who blocks whom?". Why would you care if someone blocks other people in the game unless you think it reduces your chances of meeting them? Eventually the gankers and griefers are going to be playing in their own version of PG, albeit in an "Open" titled mode.

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

Hello Commander CMDR ColD_ZA!

The chance of your evil wizardry causing you to not join an instance is (notwithstanding the multitude of other checks that I've mentioned) proportional to the number of Commander's in the instance who have blocked you.

The more folk who have blocked, the lower the chance of a match up.

Thanks Sandro,

I'm pleased to hear there is a scaling mechanism, and its not all or nothing,

that was my only concern about blocking, the blocking few vastly impacting the indifferent many.

 

[MarkAusten]

As I read through this thread the thought kept popping back into my head "why does this poster care who blocks whom?". Why would you care if someone blocks other people in the game unless you think it reduces your chances of meeting them? Eventually the gankers and griefers are going to be playing in their own version of PG, albeit in an "Open" titled mode.

I think that anti-block contingent oppose the block list mainly on the grounds that it forces your choice on other players. However they fail to understand that just about everything you do in Elite forces your choice on other players.

If I understand what Sandro is saying regarding the Block List this is not really the case and the instancing algorithm is more likely to change your instance so that you are not in the same instance as a blocked player rather than preventing the blocked player from joining your instance. But I could be wrong about that. As Sandro has said the instancing mechanism is highly complex.

 

[Morbad]

Apropos of nothing, but one of Elite's problems is, I think, that it's neither one thing nor the other. It isn't an MMO, but it has MMO aspects. It isn't a PVP game, but it has PVP aspects. It doesn't really fit into any of the conventional 'moulds' and, as such, it's tricky to nail down what should and should not happen or be allowed.

It is, to put it mildly, a bit of a burger.

Elite: Dangerous is clearly an MMO--thousands of CMDRs are playing in the same game and interacting with each other via a single shared BGS. It's just heavily instanced and P2P, which limits how many can meet virtual face to virtual face at a time. It's also has relatively unrestricted PvP for an MMO.

Beyond that things are subjective. I personally can't seen an MMO with an Open mode functioning well when players have the ability to pick and choose who they can or cannot encounter. Others obviously see things the opposite way, even if I struggle to recall any supporting precedents for their views.

 

[Lateralus]

Could the 'recent connections' factor explain the phenomena of wanted CMDRs not being winged with clean CMDRs, and vice versa, especially if a group of wanted CMDRs have been playing together, and one or more of the clean CMDRs has one or more of the wanted ones blocked?

Good question.. this issue has been plaguing PvP pirates lately.

 

[Mohrgan]

Could the 'recent connections' factor explain the phenomena of wanted CMDRs not being winged with clean CMDRs, and vice versa, especially if a group of wanted CMDRs have been playing together, and one or more of the clean CMDRs has one or more of the wanted ones blocked?



So, how much weight is required to deny a wing member instancing with the rest of their wing?

More than once now I've encountered situations that strongly suggest my CMDR has been blocked by members of hostile wings, who held an instance and outnumbered my wing, specifically to keep him from being instanced with the CMDR or CMDRs he was escorting.

Specifically, how is a situation like this supposed to work:

CMDRs A & B, who are winged and friended, arrive at an instance populated by CMDRs 1, 2, 3, 4. The numbered CMDRs don't want to share, so their combat vessels attack and narrowly drive off CMDR B. CMDR A remains in instance, hidden (out of sensor/visual range, in an SRV, etc). CMDR B, after rearming, comes back, heads to the same location as his wing member, instances fine and counter attacks. Then CMDRs 1 through 4 all block CMDR B. CMDR A and CMDRs 1 through 4 are all still in the same instance, and A can observe all the others. The wing beacon is visible for B, but no matter how many times B tries to reinstance, he gets his own, empty instance. CMDR A must escape from CMDRs 1-4 on his/her own, get into supercruise, and then follow B into B's instance.

Can several blocks reliably cause instancing issues for a small wing as I have apparently seen?

As Sandro has said, the Block feature works on the player who has blocked, rather than the player who was blocked. The matchmaking system will alter the Blockers instancing before it will affect others. That should put a lot of the perceived issues to bed.

Sandro also mentions the myriad of issues that are part of the matchmaking calculations that the Block feature has minimal impact on instancing. The more Commanders you put into a hypothetical situation, the more those issues increase. With six Commanders, A, B, and 1, 2, 3, 4, the matchmaking system has to account for all of those decision times six, complicating matters well beyond the influence of the Block list. Hypothetical edge cases notwithstanding, the word has come from the Horses Mouth. FD says the Block Feature is working as intended, and whatever effects it may have on instancing, are acceptable to those who truly know how it works.

I am, not surprisingly, expecting this conversation to move forward just as it has so far. It's not like words from the Dev's really settle these things...

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Morbad!

Could the 'recent connections' factor explain the phenomena of wanted CMDRs not being winged with clean CMDRs, and vice versa, especially if a group of wanted CMDRs have been playing together, and one or more of the clean CMDRs has one or more of the wanted ones blocked?



So, how much weight is required to deny a wing member instancing with the rest of their wing?

More than once now I've encountered situations that strongly suggest my CMDR has been blocked by members of hostile wings, who held an instance and outnumbered my wing, specifically to keep him from being instanced with the CMDR or CMDRs he was escorting.

Specifically, how is a situation like this supposed to work:

CMDRs A & B, who are winged and friended, arrive at an instance populated by CMDRs 1, 2, 3, 4. The numbered CMDRs don't want to share, so their combat vessels attack and narrowly drive off CMDR B. CMDR A remains in instance, hidden (out of sensor/visual range, in an SRV, etc). CMDR B, after rearming, comes back, heads to the same location as his wing member, instances fine and counter attacks. Then CMDRs 1 through 4 all block CMDR B. CMDR A and CMDRs 1 through 4 are all still in the same instance, and A can observe all the others. The wing beacon is visible for B, but no matter how many times B tries to reinstance, he gets his own, empty instance. CMDR A must escape from CMDRs 1-4 on his/her own, get into supercruise, and then follow B into B's instance.

Can several blocks reliably cause instancing issues for a small wing as I have apparently seen?

I just checked some details here: the wing relationship is pretty much the strongest one we have in the game in terms of trying to match make. It should override any amount of blocks, so it should not really be possible to prevent wing members from getting into the same instance by blocking.

I think the issue here is, in part, down to what I said earlier: there are lots of elements under the hood that deal with match making Commanders. As players, we only see limited information, so it can be hard to understand what's actually going on.

If you are seeing what looks like failed matchmaking between wing members, any data you can provide will help us work out what's going on (clearly something is, as you should match with wing members). Chances are though, that the cause will not be because of blocking.

 

[Stealthie]

Hello Commander Stealthie!



To be precise, what I mean is that being the person who initiated the block, your game is more likely to decide to change instance than if you were the target of a block. I hope that's clear, though perhaps you want to avoid half quotes as the whole sentence...



... should hopefully give the context as to why this isn't me saying that players have to play differently, rather a statement to highlight the fact that as the Commander initiating the block, you are telling the game to prioritise changing your own game experience above changing others.

That's spot on. Thanks. [up]

I deliberately only quoted part of your post as an example of what's likely to occur in the future.

In future, when somebody advocates using the block function and gets told "Sandro says you should "the onus is on you to change your game" instead of blocking people", at least we'll be aware of the proper context.

 

[Stigbob]

Elite: Dangerous is clearly an MMO--thousands of CMDRs are playing in the same game and interacting with each other via a single shared BGS. It's just heavily instanced and P2P, which limits how many can meet virtual face to virtual face at a time. It's also has relatively unrestricted PvP for an MMO.

Beyond that things are subjective. I personally can't seen an MMO with an Open mode functioning well when players have the ability to pick and choose who they can or cannot encounter. Others obviously see things the opposite way, even if I struggle to recall any supporting precedents for their views.

I think it's unrealistic to expect people to accept being forced to spend their leisure time with anyone they don't want to. Precedents don't really count for much when you are discussing a game with no contemporaries.

 

[Morbad]

However they fail to understand that just about everything you do in Elite forces your choice on other players.

No, 'they' don't fail to understand this.

There is a distinction between player and CMDR as well as between in and out of game/setting contexts.

Instancing, as a whole, is part of the metagame that in-game entities cannot be aware of. That's player knowledge, not character knowledge.

Combat, shifting faction influence/control, commodity prices, etc, those are in-character effects that have CMDRs influencing the setting of other CMDRs. Yes, out of game knowledge can be applied to this, but the actions and effects are completely explainable in an in-game context.

Blocking is way out side that. It's something that has official blessing, but it's player action against another player that doesn't directly involve their CMDRs. From the perspective of our CMDRs in-game, the effect is as inexplicable as a combat log/willful disconnect.

Hello Commander Morbad!



I just checked some details here: the wing relationship is pretty much the strongest one we have in the game in terms of trying to match make. It should override any amount of blocks, so it should not really be possible to prevent wing members from getting into the same instance by blocking.

I think the issue here is, in part, down to what I said earlier: there are lots of elements under the hood that deal with match making Commanders. As players, we only see limited information, so it can be hard to understand what's actually going on.

If you are seeing what looks like failed matchmaking between wing members, any data you can provide will help us work out what's going on (clearly something is, as you should match with wing members). Chances are though, that the cause will not be because of blocking.

Thanks for the clarifications.

I'm not convinced the way it's supposed to work is what's actually occurring, but now that I know how strong the winging effect on instancing is supposed to be, I can start gathering netlogs for a bug report.

 

[Stigbob]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I'm not convinced the way it's supposed to work is what's actually occurring, but now that I know how strong the winging effect on instancing is supposed to be, I can start gathering netlogs for a bug report.

Don't forget to mention you used to have 60-80 CMDR's blocked, that may be having an effect on your game especially if you didn't remove them all or vice versa.

 

[MarkAusten]

Blocking is way out side that. It's something that has official blessing, but it's player action against. From the perspective of our CMDRs in-game, the effect is as inexplicable as a combat log/willful disconnect.

So tell me, both Friend Lists and Wings are also player action against another player that doesn't directly involve their CMDRs yet you and many of the other anti-Block list brigade feel that these are acceptable. Again applying the same logic to another feature results in a diametrically opposed result. Inconsistent and illogical.

...and now irrelevant...

Since, if I understand what Sandro has said, it turns out that the Block list appears to operate in a different fashion in that it is the blocking commander that is influenced rather than the other players including the blocked.

Now you are going to argue that if this is correct and a blocking player is removed from the instance then this is still forcing one player's choice on other players. This is an argument that you are going to lose since the player can also achieve this in other ways. The player could High Wake, switch to Solo or PG, they could stop playing the game, they could log out and unfortunately they could also combat log.

Now only one of these is an in-game action and all but the last are acceptable alternatives, but probably not to you. Nevertheless, these are how Elite works to which you will reply 'but that's not how it should work'. FDev think otherwise.

Yet, your pushing for a change in this mechanic, ultimately, is potentially forcing a non-in-game action against other players, something that you are actively campaigning against. And you will argue this as well.

No matter, I care not.

Out.

 

[Morbad]

Now you are going to argue that if this is correct and a blocking player is removed from the instance then this is still forcing one player's choice on other players. This is an argument that you are going to lose since the player can also achieve this in other ways. The player could High Wake, switch to Solo or PG, they could stop playing the game, they could log out and unfortunately they could also combat log.

What's achieved isn't the issue.

How it's achieved is.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

What's achieved isn't the issue.

How it's achieved is.

Not really. It has no effect on anyone as we know now.

 

[Morbad]

Not really.

The context of a thing is critical, and for any plausible depiction of a setting, context is often far more important than magnitude.

Executing someone after a fair trial is a far cry from turning that individual over to a lynch mob for summary justice, even if the outcome is the same corpse.

Obtaining or losing an in-game asset in an multi-player game where one has agreed to some rules, via legitimate in-game means, is quite different from using a hack to obtain it, even if the end result is the same.

Escaping a thousand encounters via high-wake to save your ship is fine, but willfully disconnecting even once to achieve the same effect is rightly forbidden.

Even if the block feature is justifiable, the argument that players can avoid playing with each other via means other than blocking is not remotely a justification for anything. Such statements are absurd and completely miss the numerous points that have been made by those who take issue with this functionality.

It has no effect on anyone as we know now.

What has no effect on anyone?

 

[babelfisch]

The context of a thing is critical, and for any plausible depiction of a setting, context is often far more important than magnitude.

Executing someone after a fair trial is a far cry from turning that individual over to a lynch mob for summary justice, even if the outcome is the same corpse.

Obtaining or losing an in-game asset in an multi-player game where one has agreed to some rules, via legitimate in-game means, is quite different from using a hack to obtain it, even if the end result is the same.

Escaping a thousand encounters via high-wake to save your ship is fine, but willfully disconnecting even once to achieve the same effect is rightly forbidden.

Even if the block feature is justifiable, the argument that players can avoid playing with each other via means other than blocking is not remotely a justification for anything. Such statements are absurd and completely miss the numerous points that have been made by those who take issue with this functionality.



What has no effect on anyone?

These numerous points turned out to be mostly invalid, what's left is because. That's good enough for an opinion, but it's not good enough for an argument.

 

[Xenith]

Eventually the gankers and griefers are going to be playing in their own version of PG, albeit in an "Open" titled mode.

That's precisely what they're afraid of, right there. Which is why these discussions are still going, three years after we first had to read them.