It really irks me... I love missiles, not only in ED, but every flight combat sim or arcade ever played. Having whole weapon system category (Dumbfire/Seeker/Torps) with extremely niche application, virtually made for very narrow scope of roleplaying, lacking general purpose, while most of other weapons system are viable pretty much in any situation. And it also irks me having equipment that is barely ever used, not even with niche application, only if player is extremely paranoid, and still fails to protect...
Let's make a quick overview :
I'm trying to highlight the problem mainly from PVE perspective, but PVP can be interesting to observe too. So, as I see it, biggest problem of missiles, as the class, is damage, both because it doesn't scale, and because it is explosive (which is positive, actually). From this comes another problem of ECM not having real sense to be used, along with Point Defense, which serves mainly as anti-limpet, instead of anti-missile one, which is quite hilarious. Because let's be real, if someone wants to Grom you, the will be doing it from right under your belly, so PD won't have much time to react. But again, it boils down to very specific type of encounter where one player is trying to gank or pirate. In any serious (arranged) PVP, neither of these system have much place, if at all. One might argue that Drag Seekers can be a big help in PVP, but I'd say Frags are FAR better at it, and holding locks could be quite challenging against someone who knows how to fly, and flies something at least relatively agile.
The biggest problem of ECM isn't only that lock-missile arsenal isn't threatening enough, but that ordinance can re-lock on target. With faster ship you can buy yourself a time with ECM to break distance from it, with smaller and faster (possibly engineered) ship you can technically outrun missiles without even needing to use ECM. But this system should generally be most beneficial to large or slower medium ships. So any missiles should NOT re-lock after they've been hit by ECM. The only weapon system that works correctly (AFAIK) are Pack-Hounds. It gives you 10s window, and you must have enough energy in SYS to use it, so I think it shall justify ordinance completely losing target. Maybe give charges to ECM like Chaff? Any better ideas?
So, the suggestion to balance and give bigger spectrum of utility to Missiles has been brewing in my head for quite a while:
Just straight up buff to missile damage or ammo won't cut it and will throw balance out of whack. Because even now, f.e. Seeker do unproportionally big damage to smaller craft. They murder SLFs almost instantly and even with engineered hulls, small ships getting considerably hurt on each impact.
After my numerous encounters with Interceptors, Thargons to be more accurate, they actually fire missiles (or suicide drones, to be more accurate) at you. Most people here are aware how these things work, if not, you might wanna look it up. And I think it's quite brilliant. If developer could repurpose it for all missile weaponry in the game, we might have a solution, but with a twist: keep anti-shield damage as it is now, but make damage against hull based on mass, just like thargon drones are, and make explosive hull resist cut impact damage considerably. See, with this change, small ships will theoretically be getting same damage as they do now, but Mediums and especially large ships would get considerably more damage. Important to mention that small craft can technically dodge (outrun) some locked missiles, so using PD/ECM for extra protection would be more for Medium/Large ships. So the impact damage should be proportional and scaled to ordinance size: Seekers least, Dumbs - bigger, Torps - extreme damage.
But I'm actually a bit torn on Torps. Honestly I'd just give it a bit more ammo for better presence and wouldn't buff damage very considerably, not to create overkill situations. What would you suggest?
The only thing I wouldn't touch are Pack-Hounds. They aren't very ammo efficient, but since it's PP weapon system, it's okay for it to stay ultra-specialized, and they ARE far better than regular Seekers or Dumbs to take out externals, plus pack serious punch. But actual biggest advantage of this system is ability to hide your ordinance inside the swarm. You can pepper target with PH while launching Reverb Torp, f.e. If target ship doesn't have ECM, goodbye shield gen almost instantly, and the only option would be to run, if drives hold long enough, that is...
Problems we solve with this change are:
So, we should be able to counter missiles with ECM/PD/Heatskinks/Vents/Silent Running/Screening Shells and most importantly - decent flying skills (FA/off). Name me another weapon system that has THAT many counters already and so hopelessly niched or under powered?
I'm pretty confident that increasing skill ceiling with usage of more weapon and defensive systems in unison will make combat a lot more interesting and engaged. All other (at least regular) systems are in pretty good place as of now IMHO, so this playstyle will not replace the one pilots have and enjoy, but more possibilities are always better in my book. Beats these things just rotting away in the roster, isn't it?
We already have everything: weapon systems and utility equipment that isn't always used for it's purpose or more widely, and we do have mechanic that might be a good change. Why not take advantage of it with a little bit of tweaking from developer side? I mean FDev already makes some changes for combat, even if that's on payout side, why not throw a bit of rebalance in the mix?
P.S. Please, just let's be as constructive and objective as possible, with the least strawmen we can have. Would really appreciate it. Thank you.
Let's make a quick overview :
- Lasers: "thanks" to engineering and relatively infinite WEP capacity + Vents, Beams become a bit too useful, but Pulses and Bursts still have their place, as you get higher ToT, especially on vessels with weaker Distributor, and the biggest advantage is no ammo.
- MC: possibly most versatile weapon system in the game. Amazing damage potential and incredibly ammo-efficient, very low strain on WEP plus good range. Anyone would like to have at least one for infamous Corrosive effect, and Incendiary Rounds are quite popular, to put it mildly.
- Frags: not very ammo efficient, but raw damage output compensates for it in spades, especially on bigger hardpoints. It has it all, Incendiary, Corrosive, Screening Shells (brutally underrated but incredibly good), and even Drags. Even Vulture, as a small ship with double frags, can break over ~750 DPS, and completely shut down targets' ability to move. Crazy.
- Cannons: no such versatility and might also be not very ammo efficient, but weapon is complete monster against naked hull. I use this system quite often lately, and it is amazing that at ~50% hull target has most of it's internals completely wrecked. I'm just using Overcharged + Autoloader and do not even target modules at all. Natural penetration is incredible. First one goes Shield Gen, often weapons go out quickly too, on Alliance ships Drives break first, and can't count how many times target just died from PP failure, again, without me actually targetting it, with hefty hull points left.
- Plasma Accelerators: do I even need say anything? Well, yes, it's one of the highest skill ceiling weapons, particularly in PVP, but one with highest damage potential, and Absolute makes up for every disadvantage one might find in this system.
- Rail Guns: more on a specialized side, but still extremely viable for damage capabilities. Great option for ships that need to avoid close engagements, can be used to snipe very successfully. With short range packs serious punch up close, natural Kinetic + Thermal makes weapon extremely flexible, feedback cascade is possibly one of the most useful things you can have for any PVE combat you do, plasma slugs ensure you can have much larger ammo capacity, although I wouldn't say it's ammo inefficient in any particular way. And lastly, natural penetration of this weapon is pretty incredible, you can wreck any internals from far away, almost at the same pace as Cannons.
- Don't have much to say about Mines, since it's defensive type of a weapon, I never really used it either so can't say much.
- Shock Cannons are okayish' but definitely need some love (engineering).
- Dumbfires: very high skill ceiling weapon, in the same brackets as PAs, but with a downside of 50 Explosive only damage (51.5 - best you can get) and only useful thing it has is FSD interrupt, as mentioned previously, beneficial only in very-very few situations and not all out combat. You would never really need it in HazRES, CZ, Installation combat, Massacres, etc, etc. Even not in Assassination, since with engineering, you dish out enough damage in aforementioned systems, so target won't be able to escape, and you will have ammo for several such contracts... Important to note that these weapon systems ONLY damage extrenals, which is big disadvantage, while most previously mentioned systems can target and destroy externals and internals both.
- Seekers: 40 damage, (41.2 best you can get), Drags is the only thing it has. But with its ROF and projectile travel time it's not really very viable, since Frags can do it much better and is much more useful with that system. Plus it's not really necessary or even remotely useful in content I mentioned for Dumbfires. In real PVP holding locks can be quite challenging, aside from the fact that locks can be broken easily with temp manipulation, silent running, and if target has at least one PD, it can easily shut down one Seeker completely you might have for Drag.
- Torps: Reverb Cascade or blowing up instantly smaller targets. Works great against unaware players (purely for gank), rather useless against NPCs, and ammo, well... On big ship, even if you manage to wreck shield gen, if it's well combat built, it won't do much harm beyond that, and you effectively trade at least 2 hardpoints, even if small, for something that could have bigger presence and crippling experimentals through the fight.
I'm trying to highlight the problem mainly from PVE perspective, but PVP can be interesting to observe too. So, as I see it, biggest problem of missiles, as the class, is damage, both because it doesn't scale, and because it is explosive (which is positive, actually). From this comes another problem of ECM not having real sense to be used, along with Point Defense, which serves mainly as anti-limpet, instead of anti-missile one, which is quite hilarious. Because let's be real, if someone wants to Grom you, the will be doing it from right under your belly, so PD won't have much time to react. But again, it boils down to very specific type of encounter where one player is trying to gank or pirate. In any serious (arranged) PVP, neither of these system have much place, if at all. One might argue that Drag Seekers can be a big help in PVP, but I'd say Frags are FAR better at it, and holding locks could be quite challenging against someone who knows how to fly, and flies something at least relatively agile.
The biggest problem of ECM isn't only that lock-missile arsenal isn't threatening enough, but that ordinance can re-lock on target. With faster ship you can buy yourself a time with ECM to break distance from it, with smaller and faster (possibly engineered) ship you can technically outrun missiles without even needing to use ECM. But this system should generally be most beneficial to large or slower medium ships. So any missiles should NOT re-lock after they've been hit by ECM. The only weapon system that works correctly (AFAIK) are Pack-Hounds. It gives you 10s window, and you must have enough energy in SYS to use it, so I think it shall justify ordinance completely losing target. Maybe give charges to ECM like Chaff? Any better ideas?
So, the suggestion to balance and give bigger spectrum of utility to Missiles has been brewing in my head for quite a while:
Just straight up buff to missile damage or ammo won't cut it and will throw balance out of whack. Because even now, f.e. Seeker do unproportionally big damage to smaller craft. They murder SLFs almost instantly and even with engineered hulls, small ships getting considerably hurt on each impact.
After my numerous encounters with Interceptors, Thargons to be more accurate, they actually fire missiles (or suicide drones, to be more accurate) at you. Most people here are aware how these things work, if not, you might wanna look it up. And I think it's quite brilliant. If developer could repurpose it for all missile weaponry in the game, we might have a solution, but with a twist: keep anti-shield damage as it is now, but make damage against hull based on mass, just like thargon drones are, and make explosive hull resist cut impact damage considerably. See, with this change, small ships will theoretically be getting same damage as they do now, but Mediums and especially large ships would get considerably more damage. Important to mention that small craft can technically dodge (outrun) some locked missiles, so using PD/ECM for extra protection would be more for Medium/Large ships. So the impact damage should be proportional and scaled to ordinance size: Seekers least, Dumbs - bigger, Torps - extreme damage.
But I'm actually a bit torn on Torps. Honestly I'd just give it a bit more ammo for better presence and wouldn't buff damage very considerably, not to create overkill situations. What would you suggest?
The only thing I wouldn't touch are Pack-Hounds. They aren't very ammo efficient, but since it's PP weapon system, it's okay for it to stay ultra-specialized, and they ARE far better than regular Seekers or Dumbs to take out externals, plus pack serious punch. But actual biggest advantage of this system is ability to hide your ordinance inside the swarm. You can pepper target with PH while launching Reverb Torp, f.e. If target ship doesn't have ECM, goodbye shield gen almost instantly, and the only option would be to run, if drives hold long enough, that is...
Problems we solve with this change are:
- All Missiles become VASTLY more useful (and dangerous across the board) in PVE, but as complimentary system, because you still need something to strip away the shields. Which opens up whole new slew of gameplay. Important point here is that naturally shields have biggest natural explosive resist, and no matter how you bend it with engineering, it will still maintain considerable strength against it. While hulls have the least, and not many people care much about their explosive resist on hull, if at all...
- Missiles MAY change PVP meta, but frankly I doubt so, because PAs are still superior. Defenses in this game are overtuned. First to strip shields and then possibly break through PD/ECMs... Why, when you can have weapon that guarantees absolute damage, and the only counter to it is pilots' ability to dodge? Trading extra space for more weapon systems + different utilties simply might not be worth it. It's not like Missiles will evaporate heavily engineered hull...
- NPCs already have patterns, when they start bombarding your ship with missiles when your shield drops. Right now you just laugh at pretzels thrown against your even tissue paper hull, but imagine they do this with proposed impact change. So player would have to be a lot more careful, and actually equip and use countermeasures when they go in heavy combat. Again, more things to manage, PVE combat more dangerous, new gameplay features.
- I assume it is general consensus that Shield Booster stacking is a bit out of hand, because this is the only "utility" (yes, funny) that gives you straight buff without any drawbacks and diminishing returns get trumped by number of those you can stack in something very capable. Since bigger (actually meaning mediums too) ships have a lot more utility slots, missile systems being that dangerous will shift meta across the board, so they will HAVE to use ECMs and at least 2 PDs, depending on how maneuverable ship is and how confident pilot is.
- This change may actually be sort of a gap closer for smaller craft to take on larger ships. With scaled damage and ability to get very close, avoiding PD arcs, they can deliver payload more efficiently. Problem of breaking down shield will still stay, and due to very limited hardpoints, if small ship will go for torp/dumbfire combo, it will still be extremely niche build, leaving you unable to do anything if ship is properly defended and pilot is actually good, since you won't have space for more weapons.
- Some may argue that hull tanks are already in bad place, and missile change will bury it completely, but I would disagree, because every shield tank or even hybrid relies on as many SB as you can shove in. Plus bigger ships (I'd say bigger than Asp) do not really benefit from Chaff, and how many HSLs you really need?... So you can stack whole ship with PDs and one ECM, not like you have much else to put there, making it actually a lot more defended against any missiles than your run-of-the-mill shield tank/hybrid, which might have a place for only 1 PD and ECM.
- Some may say Missile boats will get out of hand, but let's not forget that they won't be able to break through shields (ECM will negate Torps), and such narrowly utilized ships aren't any good in general, maybe only against very fresh greenhorns (which get blown up left and right by anything anyway) or just very bad players, which is their fault for not using appropriate defenses, really...
So, we should be able to counter missiles with ECM/PD/Heatskinks/Vents/Silent Running/Screening Shells and most importantly - decent flying skills (FA/off). Name me another weapon system that has THAT many counters already and so hopelessly niched or under powered?
I'm pretty confident that increasing skill ceiling with usage of more weapon and defensive systems in unison will make combat a lot more interesting and engaged. All other (at least regular) systems are in pretty good place as of now IMHO, so this playstyle will not replace the one pilots have and enjoy, but more possibilities are always better in my book. Beats these things just rotting away in the roster, isn't it?
We already have everything: weapon systems and utility equipment that isn't always used for it's purpose or more widely, and we do have mechanic that might be a good change. Why not take advantage of it with a little bit of tweaking from developer side? I mean FDev already makes some changes for combat, even if that's on payout side, why not throw a bit of rebalance in the mix?
P.S. Please, just let's be as constructive and objective as possible, with the least strawmen we can have. Would really appreciate it. Thank you.
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