Let's talk ship size, cargo capacity and how incredibly silly this is in Elite: Dangerous.

Let's have a look at the hull mass vs. max. theoretical Cargo mass and compare the Type-9 to other Ships :

View attachment 218321

Turns out it's not doing to bad.
Surprisingly, the tiny Hauler takes the cake with allowing for significantly more Cargo than its Hull Mass.
(and should you ever have wondered why a DBS or FAS are terrible Cargo haulers.... well, now you know ;) )

This looks pretty ok.
But then you factor in the dimensions of the ships and things go south
 

Deleted member 38366

D
This looks pretty ok.
But then you factor in the dimensions of the ships and things go south

Cargo space within Ships is limited and in ELITE drastically affected by design philosophy.
So the Type-9's Thrusters and Reactor might take up more space internally than its size would suggest from the outside.

Another explanation are the acceleration forces acting upon the Ships. Having all Cargo loaded in a tight space might exceed the structural limits of the Vessel under higher g-loads or acceleration/deceleration.
And if you're ever seen a Transporter hauling Gold or even Platinum, you'll find alot of empty space... structural load per square meter/foot at some point becomes the limiting factor.

So the size i.e. of a standard Cargo Container of our 21st century might look very spacey and you'd think you could load it up purely by judging its volume.
But then you see this :
1617912851011.png


The darn thing might be considerably large - but has very well-defined load limits in terms of permitted payload. Much, much less than its considerable volume (3D size) would suggest.

....as always, the most simple explanation is often the correct one : simple and plain gameplay/balancing.
And when the Type-9 gained a full 256t (Type-7 gained 128t) Cargo Space at their last balancing pass, the Ships or course didn't "grow" or develop large bulges on their Hull. It just happened and classic magic was applied to them :D
 
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The game has been leaning away from a sim aspect that would take logical solutions regarding cargo, so you shouldn't really expect it to happen. It's leaning more into the territory of MMO now
 
Hello OP, I for one commend you for your work -- I've always felt that the figures don't quite add up, but I had no idea it's that bad. I.e. that even with the tightest, heaviest / most massive module packing possible, the big ships come out at 1/6 the density of styrofoam. :eek:
(Note that it's quite different for small ships; Eagle and Viper for instance are about the size of a Space Shuttle (orbiter), and actually about twice as massive)

A possible meta-explanation might be that the medium and large ships were originally designed somewhat smaller, then upscaled to make them look bigger, without changing the stats.
For added lulz, calculate the density of a Jumpaconda. =D

the exit velocity of the helium atoms is similarly high resulting in an insanely high specific impulse while maintaining a much higher fuel efficiency as well. Aka woowoo space magic" that is actually solvable by advanced enough technology.

Nah it would still remain magic. For that tiny, tiny amount of fusion ash created by those power plants (something like 1-3t/h) to create that kind of thrust that can accelerate (in realspace) a ~1000t-ship at the rates we observe, the drives would have to accelerate these particles to extreme velocities. This opens not one but several cans of worms:

1. the kinetic energy of the exhaust can't be greater than the energy put into them, or we'd be looking at a perpetuum mobile machine of the first kind. Disclaimer: I'm a bit rusty with this kind of calculations, but I'll do my best to get the units right and not mix in too many tenfold errors:

Example: ship mass 750 tons
Acceleration - for simplicity's sake - 1G = 10m/s^2
-> required thrust = 750t = 750.000kg = 7.500.000N

Let's say the ship uses 3.6t of fuel per hour (again, KISS), or 1kg/s straight.
In order to get 7.5MN of thrust out of 1kg of propellant, we'd have to speed the propellant up to 7.500km/s (2.5%c). Now this isn't too grotesque for a far-future SF I guess; well within the theoretical capabilities of fusion drives. But!
In order to squeeze out the propellant at this velocity, we need to charge it up with the appropriate amount of energy.

E_kin = 1/2 m * v_e^2;

plugging in, we get 1/2kg * 7.500.000m^2/s^2 = 28 Terajoules per second, or in other words, 28 TERAwatt.
Compare that to the figures given for the power plants and engines in ED... 28MW here, 8MW there... it doesn't just not add up, it doesn't add up by six orders of magnitude! It's like filling a gallon of petrol into your car and expecting to drive 1000 times around the world with that.

2. Now the apologists might say "So maybe the units are borked, so what", but again, it isn't that easy. ED actually does a good job not entirely ignoring the problem of waste heat. Typical power plants emit something on the order of 1MW of heat for 2MW of electricity (in in-game notation this would be called "0.50 efficiency". If only the "units were borked", the PP and thrusters would have to be a million times more powerful and, you get it, generate a million times as much heat.
Now this would be a huge problem for the ship itself. In the above example, those 28TW of drive power would produce something like 14TJ of heat per second, every second. For comparison, that's one Hiroshima bomb every four seconds. Yes you heard that right, imagine that every four seconds there'd be an atomic bomb exploding inside your ship. You see the problem.

3. And even ignoring that, the figures simply don't match up with the rest of the ship's systems anymore. Everything consumes power (and creates heat) on the order of megawatts, and these figures are probably already a bit on the high end comparing them to real life applications, but close enough. (Let's not think too much about the "docking computer" that draws 750.000 Watts, or probably about 1500x as much as your home computer system's peak draw)
It's just not plausible that we can feed a 28TW thruster no problem, but have to squeeze fractions of megawatts out of our other systems to keep everything running.
And worst of all, Jon's Law rears its ugly head: with that kind of thrust power at our disposal, we're being stupid for even carrying weapons, especially when those weapons have only a millionth the power output of our engine. It's like a Challenger 2 main battle tank whose main gun has been replaced with an air rifle. Yes you can plink away at things with the air rifle, but it'll be a lot more efficient if you just roll over the target with your 65 tons of heavy metal.
Or in the case of a spaceship with a multi-terawatt engine, just point the drive plume at your enemy and watch it evaporate in a puff of plasma.
(IIRC that Expanse show demonstrates a few examples of this)

So, long story short: it IS space magic. Somewhere along the way there's a perpetual motion machine that creates 1 MW worth of thrust power for every 1 W of electrical power we put it, but without any of the side effects such a thrust power would bring with it.
The only "solution" I see is that the realspace / sublight engines work by an entirely different (and in itself magical) principle, maybe similar to Star Trek's "Warp" bubbles that reduce the mass of a body in realspace and thereby make it easier to accelerate. This approach would probably also be easiest to bring inline with the ridiculous speed limits imposed on the ships in realspace, or the fact that they bleed velocity even when all thrusters are off.

--

As insult comes to injury, these maths operate in exactly the opposite direction as the OP's complaints about mass, density and carrying capacity. If we/FD tried to make the mass figures for the ships shown more believable by increasing them, that would mean we'd have to increase the thrust values even more. If we increased the carrying capacity to more believable values, that would move the gameplay effects of owning a Sidewinder vs a Cutter way, way further apart than they already are, and that is most likely not desired by the devs.

The most reasonable approach to bring the numbers to more plausible levels would be to ... make the ships smaller. As they were probably designed at some point in the past (before release). However, that again would make space combat much harder, at least if we were still expected to aim fixed weapons manually at suddenly much smaller targets zipping by with what would be +/- Mach 2 here on Earth.
 
The game has been leaning away from a sim aspect that would take logical solutions regarding cargo
...ever since the original Elite where you could get a cargo bay extension from 20t to 35t without any compromise elsewhere on your loadout or performance
...or in FE2/FFE where given the mass consumption rate your thrusters had near light-speed ejection of matter to achieve the observed acceleration
.. or since the Anaconda was given a hull mass low enough to float like a balloon
...or since the Power Distributor started breaking conservation of energy in ED Alpha 1

The galaxy generation sim has always been the only fundamentally realistic-aimed aspect of Elite Dangerous. The spaceships are pure fiction in terms of the laws of physics ... the economic, social and legal systems of the game have a spectacular disregard for the human scale of the star systems ... the very existence of space pirates is horrendously implausible in several respects. And that's a good thing, because putting realistic numbers into most of those things would probably make for a terrible game ... or, at the very best, a decent game that so little resembled the previous Elite games it would be utterly misleading to call it a sequel to them.
 
...ever since the original Elite where you could get a cargo bay extension from 20t to 35t without any compromise elsewhere on your loadout or performance
...or in FE2/FFE where given the mass consumption rate your thrusters had near light-speed ejection of matter to achieve the observed acceleration
.. or since the Anaconda was given a hull mass low enough to float like a balloon
...or since the Power Distributor started breaking conservation of energy in ED Alpha 1

The galaxy generation sim has always been the only fundamentally realistic-aimed aspect of Elite Dangerous. The spaceships are pure fiction in terms of the laws of physics ... the economic, social and legal systems of the game have a spectacular disregard for the human scale of the star systems ... the very existence of space pirates is horrendously implausible in several respects. And that's a good thing, because putting realistic numbers into most of those things would probably make for a terrible game ... or, at the very best, a decent game that so little resembled the previous Elite games it would be utterly misleading to call it a sequel to them.

That's fine, but the game should not really be categorized as a simulation game at this point
 
Re: the "density of our ships" question. I have pointed it out before, that when water world / Earthlike landings become a reality, that our ships ought to all bob about on the surface like corks as they have less density than styrofoam.

Re: cargo mass: it's well established in lore that every single cargo canister is 2 cubic metres and weighs exactly 1 metric tonne - they may have been renamed to "units", presumaby to avoid this exact conversation, but they're still "tonnes" as far as the game is concerned. We know this because of the performance changes we see in our ships: adding 1 tonne of cargo to the cargo hold has the exact same effect (in terms of maneuverability, jump range, etc) as adding 1 tonne of fuel, or 1 tonne of internal modules. So the "tonne of cargo" is a unit of mass, not volume, as far as game physics are concerned.

This means that (a) there's always less than exactly 1 tonne of material in each canister, as the canister itself is presumably not made of magical weightless material, and (b) most cargo canisters are mostly empty space. A 1 tonne canister of gold would be a mostly-empty box, with a small cube of gold taking up just 2.5% of the space, suspended in the middle of it. At the other end, a 1 tonne cargo canister of hydrogen would probably only contain about 750 kg of liquid hydrogen, with the rest of the mass taken up by the thick insulating walls and high pressure / cryogenic containment equipment.

Meanwhile, 1 tonne of slaves (either regular or Imperial flavoured) equals just one slave, along with all the cryogenic gear needed to keep them in suspended animation.

One can debate why such an inefficient form of interplanetary cargo transport evolved. I can only guess it has to do with automated cargo loading/unloading facilities at starports (and to a smaller extent onboard our ships), with high-speed robots that are so careflly calibrated that they need to have every box the same mass, no matter what is in it. And you've got to admit, the ability of these unseen machines to load and unload hundreds of cargo canisters near-instantaneously, is quite impressive.
 
It's not just loading and unloading, it's also about distribution of mass inside the ship during flight. Imagine you loaded some gold (at maximum density), then filled up your hold with food (density ca 1) and machinery -- your centre of gravity would be all out of whack, and engaging the thrusters will send you into a crazy spin.
The canisters may be inefficient in some respects, but without them it would be a lot more hassle to keep a ship balanced. Imagine you decided to add another few tons of gold at the last minute - the robots would probably need to unload everything and start over.

And besides, we've established that if there's one thing we have enough of inside our ships, it's empty space. I guess that's why they are called spaceships, hurr durr.

What I'd like to know: if the total density of a spaceship was supposed to be, say, 500kg/m^3 (so half that of water) - how big would they have to be? For instance a Chieftain, a Python, a Cutter?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
It's not just loading and unloading, it's also about distribution of mass inside the ship during flight. Imagine you loaded some gold (at maximum density), then filled up your hold with food (density ca 1) and machinery -- your centre of gravity would be all out of whack, and engaging the thrusters will send you into a crazy spin.
.... or the stresses involved can have serious structural consequences:
YEMEN_11.jpg
 
I had to smile at this rediculous thread. It's all handwavium! Everything about ship mass, inertia, thrust, velocity, density, jump range, heat loss, all of it... Not an ounce of logic to any of it! None of the metrics are consistent between ships, let alone fleet carriers!
  • The art designers came up with a pad arrangement for the fleet carrier...
  • Some dude calculated the (mythical) dimensions of the footprint of those pads
  • Another art designer did the FC concept artwork
  • Another dude guessed a number and thought 25kt sounded 'reasonable'
  • Some team leader made a decision not to do any visuals other than the bare minimum FC interface because it was already a year behind schedule
  • Some coder added a (bodged) transfer feature into the ship inventory panel
  • A bunch of CMs spun some wheels to generate some hype, gotta love those dudes cos they are obviously worth every penny!
  • Another bunch of coders made up some numbers for jump range and fuel usage
  • Some more coders put a bunch of buttons on the FC interface
  • Hay Presto! Your fleet carrier is born!

Edit... Does anyone know what the heat signature of an FC is? 😁
 
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That's fine, but the game should not really be categorized as a simulation game at this point
Sadly, I'm coming to the same conclusion. The original stellar forge was a bare bones sim of sorts, but every layer above that... Nah.

It's shifted further and further into NMS territory but without the pretty colour pallet... Which I'm enjoying playing a lot more than ED of late. 🥺
 
What I'd like to know: if the total density of a spaceship was supposed to be, say, 500kg/m^3 (so half that of water) - how big would they have to be? For instance a Chieftain, a Python, a Cutter?

Quick back-of-the-envelope calculation:
Let's have a look at the Type 7, bc it is conveniently shaped like a brick. 80x56x25m, for a total displacement of some 116.000m³.
At a typical laden mass of some 740 tons, this results in a density of 6,3kg/m³, that's on the order of the heavier noble gases. :p

Preserving the total mass, if we want a more believable density (around 0.5t/m³) we need to reduce the volume by roughly factor 100.
If we downsize the dimensions by factor 4, we get 20x14x6m for a volume of 1.600m³. This would be close enough to our target. These could be the proper dimensions of a Type 7.
Length 20m, beam 14m, height 6m.
Also, at these dimensions the ridiculous canopy would make more sense.

Problem is we can't downsize all the ships by factor 4. The small ones shouldn't be much shorter than 20m, either - about the size of a modern day jet fighter.
 
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What model is it please? Whenever I let my phone go, it just breaks when it hits the ground. Having one that likes to run on 1g would be very handy! Does it have to be a 4g phone to be able to run on 1g planets?
Its a Galaxy of course.....
 
As much as I love a good bit of realism and proper science in a game, I have to admit that first and foremost what is required is for the game to make sense AS A GAME. Gameplay ALWAYS comes FIRST. As long as within the confines of the game, the rules are made more or less consistent, there should be no problem invoking a bit of "space magic" to get things done (yes, yes I know, the Anaconda is the one BIG outlier in all of this....it takes internal consistency and pees all over it).
 
A long time ago, someone (I wish I could find the post to credit them properly) on reddit made a post with the bounding box and actual enclosed volume of each ship. I made a copy of their data and used it for some of my own stuff, and recently I've been wondering why the spaceships in Elite: Dangerous are such terrible transporters.

As an example - the fleet carriers can take 25,000 tons of cargo. That sounds impressive, but it's a ship that's 3.2 km long and 700 meters wide (no idea about its height). The Evergreen ship Ever Given, which recently blocked the Suez Canal is 400 meters long and 60 meters wide and can carry 20,000 twenty-foot container. Those are typically 6.1 x 2.44 x 2.59 meters and all of them have a maximum gross mass of 24 ton with a maximum cargo mass of 21.6 tons. In other words, the Ever Given can carry up to 432,000 tons of cargo. That single cargo ship can carry more than 17 times as much cargo as a single fleet carrier. This is not exactly impressive.

A Type-9 is 117 meters long, 115 meters wide and 33 meters tall. It can carry a maximum of 790 tons of cargo. That's between 36 and 37 twenty-foot containers. A stack of 6x6 such containers would be 37 meters long, 15 meters wide and 2.59 meters tall. Considering the size of this ship that is built to carry cargo, that is a drop in the bucket. And it made me wonder - just how low density are our spaceships?

Well, the highest mass I can manage to make a Type-9 is 2,219 tons by B-rating everything, putting weapons and shield-boosters in all utility slots. The ships volume is 157,616 m^3. Density is mass/volume - 2,219 tons / 157,616 m^3 = 12.8 kg/m^3 . Water is 1,000 kg/m^3. At 101.325 kPa (abs) and 15°C, AIR has a density of approximately 1.225 kg/m^3. Styrofoam has a density of approximately 75 kg/m^3.

The density of the air at the surface of Venus is 67 kg/m^3 - five times that of the highest mass Type-9. None of the thrusters on the Type-9 will allow it to ever get to the surface (if it's airtight and loaded in a normal atmosphere).

A ship like a Type-9, a ship that is built to carry as much cargo as possible, should be able to carry a LOT more cargo than it currently does. The idea that we're 1,300 years in the future but has somehow failed to figure out how to move cargo in an efficient way.

Of course, fixing that kind of problem raises another - making money becomes much, much easier, because we'll be carrying a lot more goods from the start. Don't get me started on income and prices in the game, because that's also horrendibly broken/illogical.
Let's see how many will jump down your throat, screaming "It's a game!!!"
 
A long time ago, someone (I wish I could find the post to credit them properly) on reddit made a post with the bounding box and actual enclosed volume of each ship. I made a copy of their data and used it for some of my own stuff, and recently I've been wondering why the spaceships in Elite: Dangerous are such terrible transporters.

As an example - the fleet carriers can take 25,000 tons of cargo. That sounds impressive, but it's a ship that's 3.2 km long and 700 meters wide (no idea about its height). The Evergreen ship Ever Given, which recently blocked the Suez Canal is 400 meters long and 60 meters wide and can carry 20,000 twenty-foot container. Those are typically 6.1 x 2.44 x 2.59 meters and all of them have a maximum gross mass of 24 ton with a maximum cargo mass of 21.6 tons. In other words, the Ever Given can carry up to 432,000 tons of cargo. That single cargo ship can carry more than 17 times as much cargo as a single fleet carrier. This is not exactly impressive.

A Type-9 is 117 meters long, 115 meters wide and 33 meters tall. It can carry a maximum of 790 tons of cargo. That's between 36 and 37 twenty-foot containers. A stack of 6x6 such containers would be 37 meters long, 15 meters wide and 2.59 meters tall. Considering the size of this ship that is built to carry cargo, that is a drop in the bucket. And it made me wonder - just how low density are our spaceships?

Well, the highest mass I can manage to make a Type-9 is 2,219 tons by B-rating everything, putting weapons and shield-boosters in all utility slots. The ships volume is 157,616 m^3. Density is mass/volume - 2,219 tons / 157,616 m^3 = 12.8 kg/m^3 . Water is 1,000 kg/m^3. At 101.325 kPa (abs) and 15°C, AIR has a density of approximately 1.225 kg/m^3. Styrofoam has a density of approximately 75 kg/m^3.

The density of the air at the surface of Venus is 67 kg/m^3 - five times that of the highest mass Type-9. None of the thrusters on the Type-9 will allow it to ever get to the surface (if it's airtight and loaded in a normal atmosphere).

A ship like a Type-9, a ship that is built to carry as much cargo as possible, should be able to carry a LOT more cargo than it currently does. The idea that we're 1,300 years in the future but has somehow failed to figure out how to move cargo in an efficient way.

Of course, fixing that kind of problem raises another - making money becomes much, much easier, because we'll be carrying a lot more goods from the start. Don't get me started on income and prices in the game, because that's also horrendibly broken/illogical.

its a game.

cue magic wand 🪄

/thread
 
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