General / Off-Topic London Under Siege

[verminstar]

An interesting little tale, but one that omits the necessary detail that the IRA (and to some extent the loyalist paramilitaries too) only became significant as a result of thumbscrew tactics. At the start of the troubles, the IRA consisted of a couple of dozen old men with rusty rifles buried in their gardens. Not really very effective at all...

Oh I know they were provoked and I certainly dont agree with many the things that happened around that time. A time I wasnt born in...I deal with the here and now, not causes that I had absolutely no hand in. I sympathize with republicans even though I am loyalist...I cant change who I am or where I come from nor have I any desire to.

 

[Moonax IRL]

No doubt, you talk about France

I mean all western demoracies, European in particular .

 

[Patrick_68000]

I mean all western demoracies, European in particular .

Yes but in France we are already for a long time, as what you say (more or less). I think that France is far ahead of other European countries

 

[Patrick_68000]

I was unaware that France was a theocracy.

We are laic, the freedom of religion is a fact in France. But the republic is above everything. Some characteristics of the United Kingdom are unthinkable in France

 

[Marak]

Regardless of my belief that the usual western countries have opened the door for extremism in the ME, Islam in general has some serious questions to face within its own communities. It should be stated by its leaders, particularly in the west, that those that choose to convert from Islam or not practice are free to do so without retribution. The treatment of women should be equal to that of men in relation to all social norms, ie. work, education, rights, dress etc. The seperation of the sexes at events and such, should not be tolerated in western demoracy's for religious reasons. The secular nature of western society should be paramount.
Islam has to enter the modern age in the west, intolerant forms should not be tolerated. If you live in a modern western democracy, then just as the government has a social contract to provide social services, education and safety for its citezens, then that should be reciprocatet by the citezen to obey the laws of the land and equality for all. If the idea of equality for all is unpalatable for such people, then they have no place in a western democracy and should accomadated in their quick return to countries aligned with their thinking.

There should be zero tolerance or accomadation for such thinking.

This raises another issue. We all know that the proportion of terrorists among the Muslim population is extremely small, and the vast majority are peaceful, moderate and hate these attacks as much as we all do.

The problem is - these Islamic fundamentalists are tarnishing the idea that Islam is a religion of peace, and this gives the xenophobic section of society a reason to act against Muslims (which could be one of their aims - wind up enough peaceful Muslims and some may join their cause).

The moderate Muslims should be the people most outraged by these attacks as this is damaging the view of their religion, but most of their complaints are about people demonising their faith because of a few individuals. What they should be doing is condemming these terrorist acts as much as possible, and weeding out these fundamentalists who are living in their own communities. This should be stressed in all Mosques by every Imam, that peaceful Muslims should do all they can to stop these attacks.

I brought this up with a Muslim friend of mine (ironically over a pint) and asked him why this dosen't seem to happen. He said it does happen, but rarely. Some people don't speak up about suspicious individuals through fear, but there is a culture that says 'you don't go after your own kind - Infidels are not as important as Muslims' (He didn't share this view by the way).

I know this may be a contentious post but I'd like to hear what others think.

 

[Patrick_68000]

This raises another issue. We all know that the proportion of terrorists among the Muslim population is extremely small, and the vast majority are peaceful, moderate and hate these attacks as much as we all do.

This can not be disputed. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and well integrated into the Western culture

 

[Patrick_68000]

The moderate Muslims should be the people most outraged by these attacks as this is damaging the view of their religion, but most of their complaints are about people demonising their faith because of a few individuals. What they should be doing is condemming these terrorist acts as much as possible, and weeding out these fundamentalists who are living in their own communities. This should be stressed in all Mosques by every Imam, that peaceful Muslims should do all they can to stop these attacks.

And this is the problem

I brought this up with a Muslim friend of mine (ironically over a pint) and asked him why this dosen't seem to happen. He said it does happen, but rarely. Some people don't speak up about suspicious individuals through fear, but there is a culture that says 'you don't go after your own kind - Infidels are not as important as Muslims' (He didn't share this view by the way)

There are also many "infidels" among the Muslims ..

 

[Marak]

This can not be disputed. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and well integrated into the Western culture

Absolutely - I worked in the NHS and knew a lot of Muslim doctors - I once burst in on one when he was praying (the guy I mentioned above) and said "Oops sorry mate!"

He just replied "No worries - can't find this damn contact lens anywhere!"

(it was the "No worries" that made me laugh )

 

[Patrick_68000]

Absolutely - I worked in the NHS and knew a lot of Muslim doctors - I once burst in on one when he was praying (the guy I mentioned above) and said "Oops sorry mate!"

He just replied "No worries - can't find this damn contact lens anywhere!"

(it was the "No worries" that made me laugh )

For my part, I frequently go to the hammam with Muslim men but also with Muslim women who are in bikini

 

[Moonax IRL]

Ye wanna beat them? Same tactics as were used against republicans and loyalists here...dont go after them specifically, go after their support base...the fringe elements tolerated by society. turn the thumbscrews on them to give up information...sweeten the deal with bribes.

Thats how terrorism was beaten in ulster. In the end the IRA were so heavily infiltrated and compromised that they had no choice but to call a ceasefire. Same with loyalism after they cut off the cash supply and brought an end to the backroom deals done with politicians to starve them of cashflow. In the end, neither side could fart without both governments knowing about it.

Its not pretty and its certainly not very politically correct...but it is effective. Its a war of attrition...fought over decades not days and months ^

Apples and oranges. The IRA ability was never degraded by the security forces to any great extent and infiltration is overplayed as evidenced by the Docklands in 96. The British government were in a stalemate situation with the IRA, with neither side having the ability to defeat the other. Consequently a deal had to be struck with the GFA in 1998 to deal with what was a political problem. Republicans just moved fully into the political arena with the same objective.

What's happening in the UK today is a different ball game. A lot of these guys have little or no structure. It's low tech, little to no planning. Just walk into a shop, buy a few knifes and hire a van, then mow down people and jump out and stab people till the police arrive. The objective is to kill as many people as possible There is little to nothing to inflatrate as from genesis to commission it could be done in an hour or two.

 

[Stinja]

Just so everyone is clear, London is not actually under siege at the moment. 100% of Londoners will wake up, see the news, go to work, have a pint or cocktail or two after work, say balls to terrorists as they ALWAYS do, and carry on being citizens of the Greatest City in the World (fact). Nothing to see here.

Londoner here. I do not feel under siege :S Tomorrow i'm going to get up, see the news (to check the weather and commute issues), and go to work. My biggest worry will be if they've closed off London Bridge for forensic investigations, and how to divert around it...

Yes terrorism exists. Yes it's often Muslims (apparently, the ones at work all seem decent, apart from never buying a round ). But you're statistically still more likely to be killed by a lightning strike, or even more probably by a regular traffic accident (like some arrogant cabbie pulling over to get a punter ).

I certainly do not agree with selling all our civil rights and privacy, just for some unsubstantiated extra security the government says we'll get, and May has been pushing for a while. Stiff upper lip; keep calm etc [up]

 

[Patrick_68000]

Londoner here. I do not feel under siege :S Tomorrow i'm going to get up, see the news (to check the weather and commute issues), and go to work. My biggest worry will be if they've closed off London Bridge for forensic investigations, and how to divert around it...

Yes terrorism exists. Yes it's often Muslims (apparently, the ones at work all seem decent, apart from never buying a round ). But you're statistically still more likely to be killed by a lightning strike, or even more probably by a regular traffic accident (like some arrogant cabbie pulling over to get a punter ).

I certainly do not agree with selling all our civil rights and privacy, just for some unsubstantiated extra security the government says we'll get, and May has been pushing for a while. Stiff upper lip; keep calm etc [up]

However, you must not trivialize the terrorism, integrate it into your daily life

 

[Adept]

They are not breaking any basic tenet. Muhammad himself sanctioned the killing of people based solely on their disbelief (in the raid of Nakhla for example, AH 2) - the terrorists are absolutely coherent and are not "distorting" or "perverting" it in any way.

Islam has a dominant political element that does not recognize the authority of anything else; you are deluding yourself if you think that those that take this ideology seriously are not a constant potential threat.

Ooh, we have an expert on Islam, no doubt holding a degree in comparative religion. No wait, it's you garden variety internet "expert", who just thinks he knows stuff by sheer awesomeness. Fail.

 

[Adept]

Haha my daughter says they wont try and gain entry to our house anyway...all we need to do is wrap the door handles with bacon. Waste of good bacon imo but she got a laugh out of it anyway.

That's honestly sad to hear, especially coming from one so young.

It's not even accurate. Pork is not not like cryptonite to Muslims.

 

[Adept]

. . .

 

[Moonax IRL]

This raises another issue. We all know that the proportion of terrorists among the Muslim population is extremely small, and the vast majority are peaceful, moderate and hate these attacks as much as we all do.

The problem is - these Islamic fundamentalists are tarnishing the idea that Islam is a religion of peace, and this gives the xenophobic section of society a reason to act against Muslims (which could be one of their aims - wind up enough peaceful Muslims and some may join their cause).

The moderate Muslims should be the people most outraged by these attacks as this is damaging the view of their religion, but most of their complaints are about people demonising their faith because of a few individuals. What they should be doing is condemming these terrorist acts as much as possible, and weeding out these fundamentalists who are living in their own communities. This should be stressed in all Mosques by every Imam, that peaceful Muslims should do all they can to stop these attacks.

I brought this up with a Muslim friend of mine (ironically over a pint) and asked him why this dosen't seem to happen. He said it does happen, but rarely. Some people don't speak up about suspicious individuals through fear, but there is a culture that says 'you don't go after your own kind - Infidels are not as important as Muslims' (He didn't share this view by the way).

I know this may be a contentious post but I'd like to hear what others think.

I don't have any issue with anyone's faith or none, but I believe all should be held to the same standard without exception. If people want to mix it up and move from faith to faith I think it should be made clear by all that it shouldn't be a death sentence. A person's rights or ability to better themselves should not be infringed on by any religion or none.

 

[ArchEmperor]

Frontier servers may come under attack?

 

[FuzzySpider]

The control freak in No 10 has already announced her intention to exploit this.

May said internet companies must not allow extremism a place to exist, but added that there was also a need to tackle “safe spaces in the real world”, which would require “difficult” conversations.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-may-says-enough-is-enough-after-seven-killed

They're going to use this as an excuse to deprive you of your rights and freedoms.

If one is to believe the ludicrous claim that terrorists "hate freedom" then this will be a victory for the terrorists.

If one is to believe the more reasonable claim that terrorists do these attacks to get noticed, effect change, and scare the population then this is still a victory for the terrorists.

In any case, I will watch with continuing horror how Theresa May and those baying for blood try to turn what was barely noticeable tension into full blown civil war, although I doubt any of those down that particular rabbit hole can see it that way.

Yes I didn't say it didn't happen, I just pointed out that a lot of it was directed at other than Islamic peoples. Islamic terror attacks in the UK pre-date Brexit, to assume Brexit is the source of Islamic fundamentalism is naive. It wouldn't help, I suppose - so maybe I should have written "I wouldn't say that Brexit has much relevance".

I have presented evidence that some people voted for Brexit because of anti-Muslim bigotry. I have also presented evidence that Muslims were targeted in hate crimes since the vote. Now take a look at this;

There were five Islamic terrorist attacks in the UK from 1986 until 2016, two of them not really very serious. An average of one every 6 years.

Since Brexit, less than a year ago, have been three more. An average of 3 per year. What sort of an increase is that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain

 

[Marak]

Since Brexit, less than a year ago, have been three more. An average of 3 per year. What sort of an increase is that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain

Terrorist attacks have increased all over Europe since 2014. This has nothing to do with Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe_(2014–present)

 

[FuzzySpider]

Terrorist attacks have increased all over Europe since 2014. This has nothing to do with Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe_(2014–present)

Yes, they have.

But then so has right-wing reactionary politics, racism, intolerance, and outspoken Islamophobia. Look at the way the French election was fought for example. Brexit was also, to some extent, the result of this. I'm not saying that Brexit is the direct cause, but that it is a part of the jigsaw.

The Syrian and Libyan civil wars resulted in a serious refugee crisis which Europe was too slow to respond to adequately. Worse, the influx of refugees led to a lot of hostility from the local populations, which has resulted in segregation and isolationism between the two groups of peoples.

Most of these terrorist attacks, in the UK at least, are not immigrants or refugees. They're committed by British citizens and are committed by young men who are not "good Muslims". The guy behind the Manchester attack was a boozy, weed-smoking drop out the Imams wanted nothing at all do with. The straight laced Muslim communities don't want to know them. In some cases their own families don't want to know them.

But then again the British people don't want to know them, the other kids at their schools or young people living locally don't want to know them, and so they don't have any community or "people" to identify as.

They're effectively young, angry citizens without a country. The likes of ISIS not only give their lives a purpose, but they give them an opportunity to strike back at everything they feel is making their lives as miserable as they are. The chance to become a famous hero, and make everyone who has hurt you pay, is a pretty potent lure to an angry yet incompetent kid who feels he has nothing to live for.

The intelligent response to this effect is to stop dividing people and give everyone a decent life chance and a way to make them feel hope for their own future. A way to make people feel valued by the country they live in, not feel like they're only there on the sufferance of white people.

Spoiler

[video=youtube;qlbirlSA-dc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlbirlSA-dc[/video]