Love and hate

[-VR- Max Factor]

Hello commanders!

In 2019, I installed the Elite Dangerous game. Initially, I was in the mood for active play in PvE and PvP, especially after video fights between live players. At first I was very optimistic and thought that everything would be fine. However, during my short game, I accumulated a lot of negativity towards this game, which ultimately led to its deletion.
Yes, I returned to the game, to those few good things, the moments in the game that could still hold me back, but in the end I gave it up again. Thus, I had a conflicting opinion about the game. On the one hand, I really like her, but on the other, it confuses and angers me, which spoils the gameplay and nullifies all the good things that she has ...

Let's start with the good. The huge scale of the game. You have been allocated a whole galaxy that you can study even for the rest of your life. Beautiful landscapes of star systems with their planets and satellites against the background of a huge starry sky, which changes depending on the current position of your ship on the star map. And the views from the surface of the planets and from the inside of the asteroid rings are also mesmerizing. All this is due to the system of generating stars and planets.
Ships and their control. There are many different ships in the game with the possibility of customization. Each of them is unique in flight control. This is due to the good flight mechanics in the game. This is especially felt in battles, in which the very essence of ship control is revealed. Now imagine the intense battles of spaceships against the backdrop of stars, planets, asteroids and rings of gas giants. You don't even need to imagine it, it's all on YouTube. It is enough to write in search of Elite Dangerous PvP. The conclusion involuntarily suggests itself that Elite Dangerous is a game about controlling a ship in a large and endless space. That's why I bought this game. I will ask you to remember this.

But what did I get? And now about the bad. Yes! It's GRIND!
Grind kills the whole game. Grind I'm tired and can't play anymore. Grind spoils the mood and tires. Why, in a game with well-developed spaceship flight mechanics, should I spend most of my time grinding and farming in order to buy a ship, install modules on it and upgrade it? As an analogy, take the example of open-world racing simulators. Have you ever driven your car around locations to collect materials needed to upgrade your engine or suspension? No! Do you even need materials to improve your car? No! To upgrade a car or buy a new one, you had to participate in races in which you earned money that went to upgrades. The game has rewarded you for being the first in the race, which is the core of the gameplay. As I said above, Elite Dangerous is a game about controlling a spaceship in a large and infinite space, which means that the game should reward you for good control of your spaceship. And where to implement it? To arrange races in planetary canyons, in the rings of gas giants, in asteroid belts and around orbital structures on the principle of overcoming checkpoints and pay credits for this? Perhaps. Hosting combat tournaments with bots or live players with good credit payouts? That would be good. Encourage PvP activity? It would be cool! But where is all this ?! Where is the balance between different types of earnings? Why can't I make a decent living as a bounty hunter, mercenary or pirate? There is more risk here than just transporting goods. Why are you forcing me to constantly collect materials to improve modules? Why can't I just pay for the improvements with credits that I could earn as a mercenary, cop, bounty hunter, pirate, smuggler ?! Okay, the materials can be left for ammunition fusion and module repair. You can also leave it to the engineers for the first access, but then why torture the players. The engineer opened it once, opened the access and stopped. Then you simply upgrade modules for credits. Why not create a chain of small story missions for each engineer, during which materials were obtained, access to new improvements was opened, credits were earned and the player was introduced to the game mechanics? Engineers are key characters. And all this can be combined for the final battle with the thargoid ... Well, then on to free swimming. Why not? It would be more interesting and enjoyable. And when all the engineers are open, you just upgrade your ship for credits. Why is the rescue mechanic dead? You have come up with so many roles, but in essence they are all rudimentary. Grind is not gameplay. Grind is what kills the gameplay.
Games are needed to distract and entertain the user from the routine of everyday work. Elite Dangerous could do well with this, it has enormous potential, which is drowning in the ocean called "GRIND".

Commanders think about it! Like you, I really like this game, but the problems associated with grinding, farming, and imbalance in earnings can no longer be ignored.
With the release of Odyssey, the gameplay issues have grown even more. Eventually, there will be more people who might get bored with all of this, and as a result, online will fall. And this will finally kill the game.

I've been playing since the game was released and haven't done any grind for anything.

Did you buy the game for PvP, when the game is predominantly PvE?

Personally, I think I'm playing the game how it was meant to be played, as a slow burn game. You get stuff as you play, instead of getting stuff to play.

But at the end of the day, it's your choice how you play the game. I've had a huge amount of fun in the time I've been playing with very little to zero unhappy times.

 

[space voyager]

problems associated with grinding, farming, and imbalance in earnings can no longer be ignored.

Some really good ideas, I'd love to see Elite reward say flying prowess etc. directly. While I hate the grinding, farming and extreme travelling times, I still come back for more, dammit.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Players complain of the 'grind' in Horizons (guess what, I have never done the 'grind' either) so Odyssey makes the engineering path with very minor buffs, and, behold, "Which is kind of weak but that's what we got."

Yep, Frontier just cannot win when it comes to engineering, can they?

Do you think the EDO engineering loop is better than EDH's?

Mat requirements, how they spawn, not even adding any info about them in-game, which would merely be consistent with EDH mats.

Engineering does require some level of grind at a minimum if you want something in a given timeframe.

I went out to unlock the FSD booster, and as before had to relog twice at the same Guardian site due to the Guardian Tech requirement, because I needed 21 but natural play only spawned half of that. Going to another site felt like wasting my time hence the relog.

Why they made it 21 no idea - Frontier probably don't know either. But it was grind, even if just a very minor one.

Since a lot of goals in Elite are self imposed, such goals will inevitably include an expected time frame when to achieve it. Most players I reckon want to do so sooner than later, but the game arbitrarily extends that by upping numbers thus needing repetition (why X tons of product Y for engineers, one run surely would suffice? But due to how rare goods work it's usually at least 2 or more - repetition). Reason is of course that's Frontiers solution to extend gameplay longevity but it's a minimal effort and cheap way.

With EDO they simply doubled down on the principle, and minimised lore (the why) and QoL (guidance) while they did so.

Weak in my book and could've been easily avoided.

Also I do believe Elite is full of grind opportunities - just because I choose to ignore it (in EDOs case robbing me of a reason to engage in much of its content) doesn't mean it's not there. I just don't think it's worth doing in EDO (especially since the game now dishes out pre-engineered gear) and that's not a great thing to say when the engineering loop is a core gameplay aspect.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

.... The fundamental problem is there's a broken handling conflict between slow burn game mechanics and short term game oriented players.

The idea of grind in elite became squeamish as soon as frontier nerfed the original requirements (2016 era rep and engineering) without changing the experience. The core systems can only be intended so that they happen organically and the results as secondary.. ie. you play then game, and then only notice after the fact that certain upgrades, ranks, ships etc are now available. To deal with the first round of negative steam reviews, frontier responded by nuking all the numbers so that the progress oriented players were still catered for, but never changed the experience to match that new mode of play. So they ended up with a system that serves noone really. Its a still a grind to goal oriented players and not meaningful anymore to the slow burn players (who can just take the grind option as well because its there and would be stupid not to).

I always imagined every time hearing complaints that frontier were going to stick with their guns and create a sort of "dark souls" punishing and be known for that. But i think their marketing won the day so it.. is what it is.

They need to change the gameplay loops fundamentally to support the instant gratification crowd, not just break a completely different system to try anyway. Also water well past the bridge.

EDIT: The reason why this was completely stupid was it was actually possible to bend your head around it. Literally every new player had to face the challenge of elite dangerous meeting zero expectations when it came to gaming norms. Everyone new 100% concludes its rubbish / impossible. But if were to continue, all you had to do was change your expectations, and the resulting experience of playing within the goals rather than the goals themselves was absolutely magical. So when frontier basically turned this off i personally wonder why they did it, all they needed to do was communicate and share insight on what was going on. But they said nothing and just changed it. Worst knee jerk reaction ever. Having said, the space game is so broken now it wouldn't be the same and they couldn't turn it back. With jump ranges so large and mission diversity non existent there's no emergent surprise and delight anymore. It wouldn't work.

 

[Jack Schitt]

I fear it's just a facet of modern gaming that turns everything into a competition, either between players or between an individual player and the game itself. And where there's competition there's always the perception of unfairness because some players always have more free time / money / dedication / enthusiasm / motivation than other players.

Even if ED had been a wholly single-player game with no player able to affect another's environment in any way, there would still be websites and YouTube videos detailing the quickest way to obtain vital ship x, or necessary equipment y, and the comments and forums would be full of people complaining that they too should be able to have x and y and that it's somehow unfair because they can't find the time or inclination to "grind" for them.

I'm not suggesting this is the OP's whole motivation, but it's a constant factor in everyone's relationship with the game and an inevitable part of the frequent "Why should I have to...?" arguments. It's as though we can't enjoy the game -- even as a purely PVE experience -- unless we're somehow "keeping up with" other players, or with the biggest credit generators, or with the latest ship or equipment meta.

Having said that, the game definitely has its design issues. I've said for a while that in the absence of radical -- maybe even impossible -- changes to the core mechanics, FD should concentrate on tweaking what they already have to be more geared towards players' desires. For example, if players could generate an in-game wishlist of currently desired materials, then instead of trawling the boards hoping to get lucky with random rewards the mission boards and givers could actively approach the player and offer specific missions, giving the player the opportunity to obtain needed items a little more quickly and possibly even the motivation to try different things within the game. "Hey, CMDR, I hear you're looking for suit schematics. It just so happens I have a few going spare, if you're prepared to run a little errand for me..."

This seems more than viable within the general structure of the current mission system, unless the code is so spaghettified that it would need a complete re-write. That's always a worry.

Hoping for fundamental changes to the game is probably futile, especially if the desire is to eliminate "the grind" which is a combination of weak mechanics and human nature. Even the best developer can only do something about the first part. But if FD were to think carefully about what they've already got and what would benefit the players' experience with a few tweaks and polishes, I suspect they'd find a lot of available crossover.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

For example, if players could generate an in-game wishlist of currently desired materials, then instead of trawling the boards hoping to get lucky with random rewards the mission boards and givers could actively approach the player and offer specific missions, giving the player the opportunity to obtain needed items a little more quickly and possibly even the motivation to try different things within the game. "Hey, CMDR, I hear you're looking for suit schematics. It just so happens I have a few going spare, if you're prepared to run a little errand for me..."

This is a great idea actually.

Thing is, I don't even mind grind if it's limited - or even noticeable: I remember playing Battlefield Bad Company 2 MP, weapons and equipment were locked behind a progression system like in many other games of similar ilk; to unlock it you have to play the game over and over, but because it was so much fun I didn't really notice the repetition.

A fair bit of Elite's gameplay involves tasks that aren't all that fun if you isolate the requirement (say travel 300ly for Martuuk, or indeed 400-500ly + return to the Pleiades for Farseer, though at least thanks to FCs you can just buy MA's now locally) - no problem in an engineered DBX but with a vanilla Sidewinder with 2E FSD, not so much, especially if you're a new player who doesn't know that the Hauler with a vanilla 2A FSD makes a good taxi.

You still have to jump dozens of systems though, just to meet the unlock requirements. Most people I reckon don't find this a fun activity unless they just forget about it - but early on in the game the engineers are the one area where the game sort of guides you along a progression path, so players fall into the trap of trying to meet those requirements as soon as possible, resulting in a sense of grind.

Regarding EDO grind in particular - downloading data involving minutes of idle waiting time is just peak Elite - whoever thought that was a good idea (and it must be more than one person at FDev to make it into the 'final' game) shouldn't be anywhere near game design really. It shows though how creatively bankrupt FDev seems to be when it comes to gameplay design.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Engineering does require some level of grind at a minimum if you want something in a given timeframe.

Of course it does... EDH is very easy as the good stuff is available aplenty, bar raws, just by making use of the opportunities the game gives to collect them. EDO has potential for any player to decide they 'need' every engineer unlocked ASAP, then they find themselves 'grinding' for very minor 'upgrades'

Also I do believe Elite is full of grind opportunities

I'm sure the same could be said of other games too. But you used the key word "opportunities" - absolutely correct, the opportunity to grind oneself spitless is presented, the crazy thing, in my opinion, is that some folk take that opportunity,

I went out to unlock the FSD booster, and as before had to relog twice at the same Guardian site due to the Guardian Tech requirement, because I needed 21 but natural play only spawned half of that. Going to another site felt like wasting my time hence the relog

Going to another site, a few minutes of play, is a waste of time? Ok - it takes all sorts, I suppose.

Playing any game is wasting time, doing stuff that is onerous in a game for 'progress' is something I've never understood others electing to do, but they do!

Odyssey, the engineer unlocks are certainly challenging with the data to unlock being unpredictable, the 'value' of the upgrades offered by the, currently, difficult to unlock engineers is minimal, not worth (again, in my opinion) going out of one's way to unlock in a hurry. Odyssey engineering , in its current form (which I hope Frontier will leave as-is) is very optional as there is no massive power gains made by adding engineering. Very sensible.

I do agree: The opportunity to grind exists... But that is all it is, an opportunity.

 

[gooddoc]

Been playing since launch day, nearly 7 years soon!

Im independent & have always done what I want, when I want. I don't do pewpew, however Odyssey has 'required' me to use brute force at times - like when I'm bored of keep getting scanned on Settlements, so some poor NPC gets shot in the face.........then I leg it!

I grind when I want to. Last time I Grind/Ground/Grinded/Grindered was well before FC introduction, Mining Platinum for two weeks, in a double hotspot - that amassed me 18bil credits, for purchase of my Carrier........credits now have no meaning to me anymore!!!

When I think about it, most of the upgrades for my Ships were bought from credits. Only really Engineering a FSD upgrade on all Ships to start with.....not really a grind!

Slowly but surely I gradually installed Engineering upgrades on my most utilized Ships, but never have I done a grind to get every upgrade on every Ship......not even unlocked some Engineers.

Then along comes Odyssey. I managed to aquire G3 Suits with a good mod already installed. Only 1 each of the Maverick & Dominator have been upgraded to G5 & a couple of Plasma's that I'm looking to get to G4.

I don't notice a grind....if one is actually there, as I go off doing a mixture of things & swap & change quite frequently........so still enjoying the game - How I want to play it

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Of course it does... EDH is very easy as the good stuff is available aplenty, bar raws, just by making use of the opportunities the game gives to collect them.

I don't even think that raws are that bad. Especially if you're mining. Data on the other hand... it's a bit of a chore particularly obtaining wake data. The rest depends on your activities.

EDO has potential for any player to decide they 'need' every engineer unlocked ASAP, then they find themselves 'grinding' for very minor 'upgrades'

I'll go further and say that EDO engineers are not needed at all to easily 'win' anything that EDO throws at you. I've been casually winning high ground CZs in gifted pre-engineered gear. I find this quite a damning verdict because EDO engineers merely offer minor sidegrades, the bulk of survivability engineering is done through the Pioneer shop.

I'm sure the same could be said of other games too. But you used the key word "opportunities" - absolutely correct, the opportunity to grind oneself spitless is presented, the crazy thing, in my opinion, is that some folk take that opportunity,

Yes, and that's why I brought up BFBC2. Problem with Elite is it often forces the player into doing stuff they might not enjoy (possibly ever), such as the 5k LY travel requirement for G5 thrusters, which are one of the best/noticeable upgrades to a ship (in terms of performance but also flight model/fun factor).

Going to another site, a few minutes of play, is a waste of time? Ok - it takes all sorts, I suppose.

I had about two hours of time to play that evening, during which I wanted to obtain the module blueprint, sufficient mats, and return to the bubble to buy the relevant commodity, then travel to the nearest Guardian Tech Broker to unlock it, before logging off. I don't think this is an unreasonable goal for an evening of playing a game (I was already in the Guardian system to start with so no travel there involved).

I spent about an hour or so of that on the blueprint/mats. Travelling to another system, 2-5 jumps plus SC commute, would've taken another 10-20 minutes, or rather longer than that even (given I re-logged twice, I'd have to do this twice at least) which I did consider a waste of my time because there was nothing to be gained from going "the long way around" about it. I've done it before and it doesn't really do anything for me, other than getting bored.

Playing any game is wasting time, doing stuff that is onerous in a game for 'progress' is something I've never understood others electing to do, but they do!

Playing a game that is boring is wasting time, if I enjoy a game I don't consider my time wasted, because I had fun. Elite's fun/boredom ratio is much lower than with other games, but because the bits I like I do like a lot, it gets away with it, if gradually less so in recent times (because Frontier added content I don't particularly enjoy so I play those less).

Odyssey, the engineer unlocks are certainly challenging with the data to unlock being unpredictable, the 'value' of the upgrades offered by the, currently, difficult to unlock engineers is minimal, not worth (again, in my opinion) going out of one's way to unlock in a hurry.

I wouldn't necessarily call them challenging, but tedious (others seem to enjoy it, but I can only say how I personally feel about it, and it's the opposite of fun hence why I don't engage anymore after initially trying). Regarding doing things in a hurry - well everyone's different, if a game gives you a goal you want to reach it as quickly as possible unless you really enjoy the underlying activity (is anyone enjoying downloading data for minutes for example?). In my above example I wanted the FSD booster to be able to reduce boring travel times, since I don't have a FC anymore (let's not get into its price tag - I wonder if I ever will own one again). Unlocking it was a chore I had to go through, although some of it was fun (the Guardian site bit, but only the first time).

Odyssey engineering , in its current form (which I hope Frontier will leave as-is) is very optional as there is no massive power gains made by adding engineering. Very sensible.

Hmmm. I personally hate it and find it very low effort - the fact it's optional wouldn't be a big deal if EDO had more meat on its bone gameplay wise. But the entire gameplay loops in EDO seem to be designed with engineering suits/weapons in mind and nothing else (cynical me would go further and state that EDO was designed first and foremost with Arx purchases in mind i.e. suit/weapon tat). If you want to work the BGS or earn credits, ship activities are better options.

And from an immersion standpoint EDO content doesn't work well for me as very little makes sense design/lore wise (why can I trade commodities and get landing clearance with an abandoned settlement? Why are the same NPCs standing in corners offering illegal contracts in public view? Why can't I scan plants from my SRV? Why can't I pick up a raw mat while on-foot? etc. etc. etc.), and the bugs of course.

 

[Rat Catcher]

EDO engineers merely offer minor sidegrades

Quite ironic, really...

So many posts about EDH engineering over the years, all complaining how OP the ships become, and why didn't the engineers offer sidegrades instead?

Odyssey does just that, so Frontier got that wrong too?

Good debate, but grind has been done to death so many times already. We each choose our playstyle, be it for good or bad. Likewise view what the game, overall, offers as recreation.

Bugs? Yeah, ED in general likes to keep its bugs safe and happy, EDO as an expansion is no different, some will get squashed over time, but the minor ones might expect a long and rewarding life.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Quite ironic, really...

So many posts about EDH engineering over the years, all complaining how OP the ships become, and why didn't the engineers offer sidegrades instead?

Odyssey does just that, so Frontier got that wrong too?

Good debate, but grind has been done to death so many times already. We each choose our playstyle, be it for good or bad. Likewise view what the game, overall, offers as recreation.

Bugs? Yeah, ED in general likes to keep its bugs safe and happy, EDO as an expansion is no different, some will get squashed over time, but the minor ones might expect a long and rewarding life.

What I find ironic is that Frontier decided to lock standard ship/SRV functionality (night vision) behind a substantial grind wall. And functionality you take for granted in other games (equivalent of silencers). To me it's a combination of the nature of there being only so much you can do with on-foot engineering, and a distinct lack of ideas on Frontier's part. Maybe they should've focused less on engineering and more on unlocking more varied weapons and equipment - but I guess that requires work and some number tweaks are easier to implement.

For example, there's not really any reason at all to engineer your Artemis suit. Even though improving the scanner would've been an obvious option (allow for concurrent sample collection, reduce distance between samples, or iterations needed).

The lack of creativity was also evident in them simply removing the scan mini game, instead of replacing it or at least keeping the last version of it until they have a replacement ready.

Yes bugs will always be part of Elite life, though the seemingly out of control number of regression bugs seems to indicate an increased amount of chaos in FD towers which I find disheartening. The more they spend on bug whackamole the less time is spent on firming up the game itself.

As for the grind - I kind of hoped the game would move away from low level unlock progression mechanics, but Frontier doubled down on the worst aspects of it instead, which is what I imagine the thread is about.

 

[drivblack]

Thanks for the reveal no one had thought of it before!

 

[Rat Catcher]

Yes bugs will always be part of Elite life, though the seemingly out of control number of regression bugs seems to indicate an increased amount of chaos in FD towers which I find disheartening. The more they spend on bug whackamole the less time is spent on firming up the game itself.

Is it chaos, or a tiny team that are not as experienced with the engine as others?

Odyssey certainly cost £millions to develop over the last 2+ years, it is unlikely to have sold in sufficient quantity to pay that debt, is equally unlikely to raise it when the 'fixing' is finished as another 6 months or more will still need to be paid for, and if they are determined to port to last-gen consoles too, goodness knows how much the expansion would have cost overall, but a not insignificant sum for an expansion.

All we, as players, can do is hope that at least some of the hinted at content that ties the expansion into the game comes to pass... and hope that, when the work is done, that sufficient sales of the DLC are made that the financiers (the investors / shareholders) permit more money to be thrown at the game development.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Do you think the EDO engineering loop is better than EDH's?

In some ways, yes:

1) No randomness.
2) The basic grades can be done in every single station
3) Pre-engineered stuff can be regularly bought

Of course, they completely blew it in true FD style withL
1) Abhorrent unlock grind
2) Bloated loot tables with predominantly useless filler to extend the grind
3) Inability to trade for essential stuff

This stuff would take an afternoon to fix and would instantly improve the fun bit of EDO tenfold. But I guess having plants in concourses is cool, too.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Is it chaos, or a tiny team that are not as experienced with the engine as others?

Odyssey certainly cost £millions to develop over the last 2+ years, it is unlikely to have sold in sufficient quantity to pay that debt, is equally unlikely to raise it when the 'fixing' is finished as another 6 months or more will still need to be paid for, and if they are determined to port to last-gen consoles too, goodness knows how much the expansion would have cost overall, but a not insignificant sum for an expansion.

All we, as players, can do is hope that at least some of the hinted at content that ties the expansion into the game comes to pass... and hope that, when the work is done, that sufficient sales of the DLC are made that the financiers (the investors / shareholders) permit more money to be thrown at the game development.

Who knows right. It's been poorly managed, and whether the lack of polish is also due to a lack of experience or skill on the worker bee level is hard to tell. The more inexperienced your staff the more tightly managed it needs to be. Where it ultimately fell apart we'll never know unless a reliable inside source spills the beans. I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall though during the design phase in particular.

As for sales, well they got my money and then some... I'm very curious about post release sales figures though, including for Arx. We'll find out next year I guess.

 

[Rat Catcher]

This stuff would take an afternoon to fix and would instantly improve the fun bit of EDO tenfold. But I guess having plants in concourses is cool, too.

It does seem that little consideration had been given to the ongoing complaints about engineering over the last few years, and deciding to make the DLC (and eventually the core?) less random & bloated!

I donated 10 MI to a squad member last night as he'd been having little 'luck' in finding them himself... Just a little too random for some playstyles it would seem! I'll get those back in time, and probably help out once more if needed.

 

[Ian Skippy]

It does seem that little consideration had been given to the ongoing complaints about engineering over the last few years, and deciding to make the DLC (and eventually the core?) less random & bloated!

I think it is even worse: they don't have any clue how their game plays for their actual consumers. They have no concept which random thingy takes longer to get, and how much longer. They don't know if 30, 20, 10 or 1 is a reasonably quantity to ask for. All they have is metrics. If their consumers all spend an afternoon logging at some POI to get some thingy, their metrics will say "plenty of folks get all of it in just one afternoon, its all fine!".

Wouldnt be surprised if it turns out that SDPs are supposed to be found in settlements in 'war' or 'civil war' states, without them realizing all those settlements become CZs, for example. I am willing to bet that literally none of the community managers or designers at FD unlocked the engineers themselves without dev console. They simply do not understand the perspective of their consumers, dont know their experience and cant parse the feedback.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

In some ways, yes:

1) No randomness.
2) The basic grades can be done in every single station
3) Pre-engineered stuff can be regularly bought

Of course, they completely blew it in true FD style withL
1) Abhorrent unlock grind
2) Bloated loot tables with predominantly useless filler to extend the grind
3) Inability to trade for essential stuff

This stuff would take an afternoon to fix and would instantly improve the fun bit of EDO tenfold. But I guess having plants in concourses is cool, too.

That's the thing and am glad you bring this up, there are ways out of the worst aspects of it, but 3 months in they're still fiddling (and struggling) with tweaking numbers. Why did they not add some hints to mats which are needed for engineering, and where they're likely found? Is writing a few paragraphs and putting that into the UI really that much work, or difficult?

 

[Rat Catcher]

As for sales, well they got my money and then some... I'm very curious about post release sales figures though, including for Arx. We'll find out next year I guess.

I bought both active accounts Odyssey, but only alpha access on this one. (and topped up with £12 ARX on both accounts for suits) Assuming many others also bought suits, then cosmetic sales were probably quite healthy.

The half-year report may give some indication of how EDO / ARX sales fared.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I bought both active accounts Odyssey, but only alpha access on this one. (and topped up with £12 ARX on both accounts for suits) Assuming many others also bought suits, then cosmetic sales were probably quite healthy.

The half-year report may give some indication of how EDO / ARX sales fared.

Ah, didn't think about half year, only expected year end results are published.

I'm kind of expecting a pre order heavy curve that's sloping downhill, though I'm interested how the last number of patches may have softened that somewhat. If I was in the market still and checked out Steam reviews (which I usually do when I buy a new game, as well as watching YT reviews) I'd stay well clear tbh. The patches so far haven't been fundamental enough even though they improved things on a more incremental level. Whether enough to sway people in their purchasing decision ... We'll see.

I'm also interested in the sales of Arx, given the absolutely ridiculous price points of suit and particularly weapon skins compared to what stuff cost before.