Loving Engineers!

[Bill Clement]

When I started a second Commander I knew right from Day 1 that he needed to gather materials all the time. So he targeted every ship I ran across to gather their Encoded materials; he visited planets with volcanism to collect raw materials; he bought a wake scanner as soon as he could afford it and scanned wakes wherever he went; and when he engaged in combat he always scooped the mats.

The result was that when he started to unlock engineers he always had almost all the mats he needed. He just had to get (or trade for) the missing ones.

At the same time, my experienced Commander wanted to buy, outfit, and engineer two new ships. And since his stores of materials were low by then, he had a terrible time collecting everything.

The thing I saw after doing those things in tandem was that engineering is paced pretty well for a new player. You unlock the engineers one at a time, and you want to engineer just one or two ships: so the challenge is a pretty reasonable one. It's not easy, but it isn't overwhelming either. Where we get into trouble is when we're at the point where we want to engineer entire ships all at once and right now. But it's something that shouldn't be easy - it's a case where we want to do something big in a short time.

So as irritating as it can be, and as tired as I get of trying to accumulate those G5 manufactured materials, I can't really say that it's wrong or imbalanced. We just need to accept that we make trouble for ourselves when we set a mid- or long-term goal and then treat it like a short-term one.

I take your point- gather/salvage everything you can from day one, life will be much easier later on. That's sound advice for anyone playing Elite Dangerous, even, (perhaps especially), those who don't think they'll be carrying out any engineering.

I take exception to the notion that experienced players want engineering 'right now'. I've been playing ED since Beta, I'm in no hurry to progress to some mythical end game and I don't mind taking my time doing things.

But engineering has driven me to utter despair- I've been engineering a Python since November, it's still not complete. That's not 'right now', it's six months of solid grind, broken up by entire weeks when I just couldn't face loading the game.

I started gathering mats when engineering first dropped. I believed I had a huge store when the system was re-vamped. I didn't try engineering until the tail end of last year, when power creep finally overtook my fleet. Without engineering combat had become dreary to the point of misery. I couldn't beat seemingly identical ships to my own- the dumb as a brick AI seemed to have uber weapons and a bullet sponge fitted as standard. Getting away was tricky- my fastest ships can't outrun low level NPCs any more. On the odd occasion I did manage to start winning a fight, the NPCs just waked out.

All of this can be solved with engineering. The trouble is I have a large fleet of now obsolete ships which need considerable engineering upgrades to perform as well as they used to, just relative to the AI, never mind other players. My 'huge store' of mats didn't get me through my first engineer. I'm spending every game session gathering mats. Effectively, I could have uninstalled in Novemebr, because I've hardly played the game at all since, all I've done is grind. And grinding mats isn't fun, involving or even close to entertaining. It's a massive pita.

The 'it shouldn't be easy' quip is fair enough- but by the same token, it shouldn't be necessary, either! If trudging around, salvaging the entire cosmos like some hi tech tinker, isn't your bag, then the game should allow for you to continue playing other ways. That 'blaze your own trail' strapline comes to mind...

#vanillashipsmattertoo

 

[Chris Simon]

But at least the progression system was better working. Now, when you engineer some medium ships or a Clipper, overall rather cheap ships, you cannot die in PvP but due to you own mistakes. If you ships goes past 450m/s, you will outrun every NCP (but Thargoids). If you have 1500 shield with decent resistances, not NPC (but Thargoids) can harm you.

I also think, mixing PvE and PvP brings some fundamental problems, that can't be solved without some fundamental restrictions.

Edit:
Maybe, just maybe, there would be more people interest in PvP if the required grind to Engineers was less off-putting?

I agree with most points.
Except the PvP population. I don't think it's about accessibility. People who don't like or care about PvP (and I honestly believe it's the majority of the demographic, here, thanks to age and gaming preferences) wouldn't care about PvP even if it was easier to get into. It's not about difficulty but a completely different mindset you guys have and what you consider fun.
Yes, I do believe some PvPers who left would return and some new ones would be lured in, but the overall percentage of people who enjoy PvP and who don't wouldn't really change.

But yes, I agree with you that the system as it works now is not thought-out well.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

While engineering a new ship to the max can seem daunting, it can be done in two days of really dedicated play, if you know where to best look for materials.

 

[Chris Simon]

While engineering a new ship to the max can seem daunting, it can be done in two days of really dedicated play, if you know where to best look for materials.

Personally I enjoy the gradual process. Sometimes it takes me weeks to engineer one ship to my liking, but it's similar to buying an E-rated ship and slowly upgrade it as you make money with it rather than A-rating it outright.
One simply gets to know the ship. Grows to like it.

But yes, it's not that long a process if you put some work into it.

 

[Retropolitan]

I take your point- gather/salvage everything you can from day one, life will be much easier later on. That's sound advice for anyone playing Elite Dangerous, even, (perhaps especially), those who don't think they'll be carrying out any engineering.
...
But engineering has driven me to utter despair- I've been engineering a Python since November, it's still not complete. That's not 'right now', it's six months of solid grind, broken up by entire weeks when I just couldn't face loading the game.
#vanillashipsmattertoo

This really is my point, though. If we treat engineering as as side job we'll accumulate materials (slowly!) while if we make gathering materials our primary job we're going to burn out, get frustrated, and start to hate the game that we have chosen to turn into a grind. There are plenty of things to do in an unengineered or a lightly-engineered ship. It's better for our sanity when we do those things, picking up materials as we go. It probably doesn't take any longer - but turning it into a grind makes it feel longer, for sure.

It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. You have to pace yourself.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that this new Commander of mine started on Dec 23rd, and he's engineered six ships now, with enough materials on hand to do at least two more (though Hull Rinforcements might be a problem.) The old commander has spent his time in the bubble treating material gathering as his side job and he's doing pretty well now, too.

 

[B1rdy]

This really is my point, though. If we treat engineering as as side job we'll accumulate materials (slowly!) while if we make gathering materials our primary job we're going to burn out, get frustrated, and start to hate the game that we have chosen to turn into a grind. There are plenty of things to do in an unengineered or a lightly-engineered ship. It's better for our sanity when we do those things, picking up materials as we go. It probably doesn't take any longer - but turning it into a grind makes it feel longer, for sure.

It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. You have to pace yourself.

I disagree on the "doesn't take any longer" part, because coresponding to your ingame activities, you might never come across certain mats or data. Also ship progression is pretty much the only meaningful progression we have. (Of course there is the BGS, but who actually cares if random faction YX or AB is actually controlling.) That is why I can understand people focussing on building their ships and despairing of RNGesus.

 

[Retropolitan]

I disagree on the "doesn't take any longer" part, because coresponding to your ingame activities, you might never come across certain mats or data.

I didn't say it would happen by itself . But if you ever wonder "what next?" you can always hop into your material-gathering ship, if you have one, and spend an hour shooting geysers or trawling Emission sources.

My new guy's problem is raw mats: since the old guy spends so much time exploring he's always maxed on all of them, but I just never feel like taking the new guy planetside to do the same thing.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I take your point- gather/salvage everything you can from day one, life will be much easier later on. That's sound advice for anyone playing Elite Dangerous, even, (perhaps especially), those who don't think they'll be carrying out any engineering.

I take exception to the notion that experienced players want engineering 'right now'. I've been playing ED since Beta, I'm in no hurry to progress to some mythical end game and I don't mind taking my time doing things.

But engineering has driven me to utter despair- I've been engineering a Python since November, it's still not complete. That's not 'right now', it's six months of solid grind, broken up by entire weeks when I just couldn't face loading the game.

I started gathering mats when engineering first dropped. I believed I had a huge store when the system was re-vamped. I didn't try engineering until the tail end of last year, when power creep finally overtook my fleet. Without engineering combat had become dreary to the point of misery. I couldn't beat seemingly identical ships to my own- the dumb as a brick AI seemed to have uber weapons and a bullet sponge fitted as standard. Getting away was tricky- my fastest ships can't outrun low level NPCs any more. On the odd occasion I did manage to start winning a fight, the NPCs just waked out.

All of this can be solved with engineering. The trouble is I have a large fleet of now obsolete ships which need considerable engineering upgrades to perform as well as they used to, just relative to the AI, never mind other players. My 'huge store' of mats didn't get me through my first engineer. I'm spending every game session gathering mats. Effectively, I could have uninstalled in Novemebr, because I've hardly played the game at all since, all I've done is grind. And grinding mats isn't fun, involving or even close to entertaining. It's a massive pita.

The 'it shouldn't be easy' quip is fair enough- but by the same token, it shouldn't be necessary, either! If trudging around, salvaging the entire cosmos like some hi tech tinker, isn't your bag, then the game should allow for you to continue playing other ways. That 'blaze your own trail' strapline comes to mind...

#vanillashipsmattertoo

Exactly my experience. It was like progress getting reset and getting nowhere with the RNG drops. And yes, many games rely on grindy mechanics. But at least you can pick your damn difficulty setting without getting lolstomped or bulletsponged all the way.

 

[CMDR Harada]

The ONLY reason I bought into Engineering was for the FSD improvements. At the time I had a Cutter and the stock jump range ( loaded ) was awful.

After that, I kind of fell into the "Well, it could be better" trap. Now I have a fleet of fully engineered ( Human and Guardian tech ) ships.

It's like bacon, once you do it, you can never go back.

 

[Banger_uk]

Stock T9 . since I started engineer I'm getting too like it, still relative new to this, unlock 3 in 800 hrs play :haha.getting use to getting mats, never really bothered before it was dioe pirate, bye pirate , land repair and give me cr and relaunch

all moded to lv1-2
sheilds,fsd,multi cannon

 

[Majic-12]

I love the Engineers too, but I would never say that in the forums.

 

[Chris Simon]

I love the Engineers too, but I would never say that in the forums.

Too late I'm screengrabbing this and will sell it for profit to be used against you at later date..

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The ONLY reason I bought into Engineering was for the FSD improvements. At the time I had a Cutter and the stock jump range ( loaded ) was awful.

After that, I kind of fell into the "Well, it could be better" trap. Now I have a fleet of fully engineered ( Human and Guardian tech ) ships.

It's like bacon, once you do it, you can never go back.

Well, I think bacon is overrated anyway...

 

[Chris Simon]

Well, I think bacon is overrated anyway...

How do you overrate something that is the best thing in the universe?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

How do you overrate something that is the best thing in the universe?

By putting it on everything and their dog.

 

[Chris Simon]

By putting it on everything and their dog.

That's not overrating it. That's just a waste of good bacon!

 

[PaxtonNewt]

I'm on my way to meet felicity and I'm excited to get started, I'm just feeling a huge sense of devastation that I can't continue it tonight. I left a folder at work I need for a course a few hundred miles away and I'm off out to get it grrrrrr 3 hours of elite time lost

 

[Bill Clement]

This really is my point, though. If we treat engineering as as side job we'll accumulate materials (slowly!) while if we make gathering materials our primary job we're going to burn out, get frustrated, and start to hate the game that we have chosen to turn into a grind. There are plenty of things to do in an unengineered or a lightly-engineered ship. It's better for our sanity when we do those things, picking up materials as we go. It probably doesn't take any longer - but turning it into a grind makes it feel longer, for sure.

It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. You have to pace yourself.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that this new Commander of mine started on Dec 23rd, and he's engineered six ships now, with enough materials on hand to do at least two more (though Hull Rinforcements might be a problem.) The old commander has spent his time in the bubble treating material gathering as his side job and he's doing pretty well now, too.

Again, I'm going to have to disagree. Milage varies. I'm devouring 'how to' threads, videos and even 'engineering sucks/is the best eva' ones like this, just trying to figure out a way to engineer one ship. Lots of people on this board claim to be able to blitz through engineering, setting up whole fleets in minutes through their sheer awesomeness. See below for an example.

It's entirely possible that I may be missing something, but I've taken just about every suggestion I've read or viewed and I'm still wallowing around with a couple of part engineered ships and an almost irresistible urge to bang my head through the nearest wall.

Engineering will not somehow happen by a process akin to osmosis. Just bimbling around hoping mats will drop into my lap isn't going to achieve anything. At the same time, I very much want to be one of those '99 ships before breakfast' engineering demigods. Sprint, jog or gentle stroll, I want the process to be over, finished, done with once and for all! I just want my ships to be engineered back to the way they were prior to engineering- I want my fast ships to be fast, relative to other ships, my combat ships to be effective against something slightly tougher than a novice Sidewinder and I want to go back to playing the game that I used to love.

I feel like Frontier have forced an involuntary reset on me. I didn't ask for all this crud- I spent years building a fleet of vessels that suited me just fine. But they rather depended on their design being balanced against similarly equipped ships. What's the point of my building a lightweight, stealthy smuggler if a battleship gets to be faster, more agile and able to spot me before my lightweight sensors have even seen them? What's the point of stripping down a ship to the point it can outrun just about anything if a quick trip to an engineer will allow a much larger increase in speed and boost?

FD won't go back on engineering, it's here to stay, but ye Gods, it sucks hard!

While engineering a new ship to the max can seem daunting, it can be done in two days of really dedicated play, if you know where to best look for materials.

 

[Jaggid Edje]

@Bill Clement, I posit that part of your problem is you spend more time in the forums typing very long posts about your issues instead of in game getting things done. I have fully engineered two more ships since the last thread I responded to you in about this ~2 weeks ago.

I still think what you aren't doing right is one of these: You aren't focusing on getting G5 materials over other materials and/or you aren't taking proper advantage of the material traders and/or you are focusing way too much on getting exactly the right materials instead of just what is easiest (and then tradeable).

 

[MoonRacer]

The problem with engineering, IMHO, is not the process itself, and not the unlocking, even if unlocking can be a PITA for several engineers.
The real problem is the uneven distribution of materials! With uneven I mean materials, that should be not very rare (Classes 'Very Common' to 'Standard') cannot be found, and materials which are in the 'Rare' or 'Very Rare' category are sometimes not rare, and sometimes even abundant.

I am not searching for one specific material, and I am not waiting anxiously to engineer something. I only have 3 Engineers unlocked, and will progress slow, since everything else is a game destroying grind - for me at least.

At this point I have 816 data materials and 4110 manufactured and raw materials. There are several 'Very Common' and 'Common' materials I have never seen. I am using USS including HGE, and planets. For example Arsenic - a 'Common' material: I have 12. And 105 Tellurium (Very Rare). 102 Chromium ('Common'). And so on.

The same goes for all other types of materials. I have 36 Imperial Shielding and 81 Core Dynamics Composites, but never saw Heat Exchangers (0, Standard) or Conductive Ceramics (0, Standard). And so on. The best distribution based on rarity is for data materials, but also not very good.

I really makes no sense this way. I have found at least 30 or 40 HGEs in different system states, but they all give the same materials. The same goes for Encoded Emissions (I found and looted at least 150-200), which even do not have data materials in many cases, and always the same manufactured materials.

As it clearly shows: Distributing by RNG does work from the point of view as a developer. It does not work from the point of view as a single player. What I cannot find another finds in abundance, and vice versa.

Reading comments on the forums this seems to have worked at some times before today. Now it does not work. And visiting USS for hours it not interesting game play. The only thing which does help, but only with raw materials are several sites (around 2000 ly from the bubble), where you can find rare and very rare materials in abundance. Since this compliments my explorer playing style, it is a solution. For the rest no good solution exists. Landing at locations like Davs Hope, and similar and playing the log on / log off game is not acceptable.

They tried to solve this problem by introducing the rip off material traders. I refuse to use them. All the different 'categories' where you end up with 1:6 trade rates at best are also not acceptable. So - no engineering for me, at least not the things I would like. The most important engineering I have done. That's it for me. And yes, I clearly cannot compete. But I will not jump through hoops for this. I play for relaxation and fun, not for such nonsense.

By the way: Data materials gained but 'scanning combat ships'. Does no longer work in my experience. I scan a lot of combat ships, always get results, but no data materials. The drop of data materials by boring wake scanning is also much worse now. I do not know to which sort of players this should appeal. I am not one of them.

But since the FSS catastrophe I have decided, that exploration is no fun until this is fixed, so I am pausing at this time anyway...