Mark, when will the "meta" nerfing stop?

[ShadowWolf Kell]

There's really no way to get around a "meta" without homogenizing the game to the point of only needing one weapon, one shield and one armor. Even then, ship size will become the "meta" simply due to larger ships having more than smaller ones.

 

[DragoonKnight]

Balance will never stop, and that's a good thing. Stagnation for stagnation's sake is inferior to proper, consistent and thoughtful balance

This is not balancing. This is FD making drastic game altering changes every patch which result in players having to spend dozens of hours to re-engineer their builds. This is a fundamentally wrong approach and most other games give you the ability to reroll your stats / abilities with no penalty as compensation. Elite does not allow this.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

This is not balancing. This is FD making drastic game altering changes every patch which result in players having to spend dozens of hours to re-engineer their builds. This is a fundamentally wrong approach and most other games give you the ability to reroll your stats / abilities with no penalty as compensation. Elite does not allow this.

Quite a few do it the same way ED is doing it with this upcoming batch of changes. Things simply rescale to the new metric. At least it's not like STO where when they revamped skills, you had to buy respec tokens with real cash.

 

[xondk]

Yes, the problem is shown with the examples in my OP: Hull then Shield Tanking, I don't think FD will get it right ever. It'll just be another meta that'll get busted in 6 months time for.... another meta.

So because it is difficult (as balance in any game is?) they should stop trying?

 

[Dbrn47]

This is not balancing. This is FD making drastic game altering changes every patch which result in players having to spend dozens of hours to re-engineer their builds. This is a fundamentally wrong approach and most other games give you the ability to reroll your stats / abilities with no penalty as compensation. Elite does not allow this.

Literally every patch. It's literally unplayable. Literally.

I don't find the changes that drastic and I won't be spending dozens of hours re-engineering a thing. If anything, the changes are aimed at making more things viable and rewarding without shifting you from what you already like using. He even said that if your mod is affected it will be adjusted accordingly to fit whatever scale it ends up on.

Good news though guys, they are going to *gasp* have a beta test so these things can be adjusted if needed, before going live. Give it a chance.

- - - Updated - - -

So because it is difficult (as balance in any game is?) they should stop trying?

Yep, let's give them a participation trophy and call it a day. [hehe]

 

[xondk]

This is not balancing. This is FD making drastic game altering changes every patch which result in players having to spend dozens of hours to re-engineer their builds. This is a fundamentally wrong approach and most other games give you the ability to reroll your stats / abilities with no penalty as compensation. Elite does not allow this.

So I'm guessing you aren't a fan of most games then, especially those with expansions, World of warcraft or any other mmo, that gets such changes regularly? where things can change a lot?

 

[Ca$hback]

There's really no way to get around a "meta" without homogenizing the game to the point of only needing one weapon, one shield and one armor. Even then, ship size will become the "meta" simply due to larger ships having more than smaller ones.

If the "best" is only 10% more effective, other options are viable. When the "best" is 250% more effective, alternatives are pointless.

 

[VR Murgle]

This is not balancing. This is FD making drastic game altering changes every patch which result in players having to spend dozens of hours to re-engineer their builds. This is a fundamentally wrong approach and most other games give you the ability to reroll your stats / abilities with no penalty as compensation. Elite does not allow this.

Thing is FD introduced the RNGineers to add more diversity but but went a little overboard with the randomness. MMO's also use some randomness in their crafting system but that's mostly to determine success or fail the stat differences aren't huge and added special effects are never game changing and unless you have a crafting failure you always end up with an item to sell unlike in E: D where you drop mats in a bottomless pit untill you get the result you want.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

All of the changes suggested in the stickied thread derive from the ancillary conversation that erupted over the taming of the hated heat Meta. The PvP Cadre saw FD asking for input and went nuts. They delivered an avalanche of proposals to foster the use of more varied ships in PvP, and to negate the effectiveness of the 'Reverski' maneuver. Continuing the connection that brought down the Heat Meta has put the PvP Block firmly in control of the games' combat mechanics. Without a counter this game will devolve into the Nerf/Buff cycle seen in so many other games.

Agreed

And thanks to engineers there will be ALWAYS a sort of meta. This is going to be a never ending story like in many other games. Each season a new meta, a new grind, etc bla bla
Just with the difference, that Elite is WAY TOO GRINDY to change things all of a sudden. It takes too much time to optimise a ship. Than you see it getting nerfed right in the moment you have finished it.

 

[Truesilver]

I think we all have to take on board quite how much 2.1 Engineers overturned the game's prior, carefully developed, combat mechanics.

Prior to that, debate around balance revolved around (with hindsight) trivial arguments about SCB's and hull tanking. Nobody was suggesting the game was broken as such, there were debates, but by comparison very muted ones.

From a PvP perspective, 2.1 all but deleted the original Elite Dangerous and replaced it with another version.

It's in these circumstances that for the last six months everything (for those concerned) has really revolved around trying to deal with the ensuing chaos.

I don't envy FDev the task of balancing combat post-2.1 ... but ultimately it is a job that they made for themselves.

I'll say now, I think we're only halfway there. I think that balancing 2.1 will in fact take a good year.

I welcome none of this. I am fan of the game but a critic of 2.1.

But we are just trying to the make the best of it. The only way to understand everything that has happened since 2.1 is to understand quite how far 2.1 threw the apple cart over.

If you want to understand what I mean, take a look at my (recently updated) all weapon damage tables ...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/246086-Official-FDev-Damage-Stats-for-Every-Weapon

... and consider quite how finely balanced those weapons are, one to the other, like a watchmaker's mechanism. This was one of the things I truly loved about the game - it's why I wrote the tables and painstakingly crunched the numbers for all the extrapolations, using a method I first employed in January to reveal the first figures for hull (as opposed to shield) damage at a time when hardly anyone realised that backwards calculation from resistances and other testing was possible.

Now look at those tables afresh after looking at inara.cz and all the Engineer blueprints. And all the specials. And not just for weapons but for modules - like base shield health going up 400%.

We all know now that it's possible to mod a pulse laser to the extent that the 'difference' between a pulse and a beam as a stock purchase is all but illusion. It's like the difference between two pieces of wet clay.

It's in these circumstances that a most extensive period of re-balancing after 2.1 was not just optional. It really followed - as night follows day - from the extent that FDev were willing to take pliers and a blowtorch to the watchmaker's mechanism.

We are still picking up the pieces - unwelcome though all this may be - and we will be, I warrant, for at least another six months.

So don't bewail the rebalances. Bewail 2.1 Engineers if you must. But the rebalances are emergency medicine for a patient greatly in need.

 

[jasonbarron]

Interesting thoughts and philosophies being expressed here. I can see the point from both sides, and I can certainly understand a certain amount of the frustration from the pilot's who are the "negative" side of the fence with these upcoming changes.

I happen to be on the "positive" side of the fence, and here are a couple reasons why: first off, I don't mind change as I've played this game for almost 2000 hours and feel like change can be refreshing. Also, I recognize that I've used certain loadouts and weapon types (gimbaled for instance) as a crutch of sorts, and don't mind admitting that I still have a lot to learn and a long way to go to "git gud," and I don't mind the work involved with learning new skills, such as aiming with fixed.

Also, as a player who embraced the engineers right away and has spent hundreds of hours focusing almost exclusively on setting up supply routes for various materials, I look at having to change my mods out with G5 specs and special effects on everything as insignificant in terms of the labor involved; I can easily adapt to any new mod meta if it becomes necessary, probably in less than an hour from start to finish.

All in all I recognize that the balance of this game is going to be ongoing for a number of years and that I have no choice but to adapt, and also, I think the proposed changes actually sound healthy for the game, once you remove the entrenched attitude of negativity from the equation.

I fully recognize I'm probably in a minority, but those are two of my cents anyhow.

@Truesilver--ack, you're using logic and reason again! Ack!

 

[Dbrn47]

I think we all have to take on board quite how much 2.1 Engineers overturned the game's prior, carefully developed, combat mechanics.

Prior to that, debate around balance revolved around (with hindsight) trivial arguments about SCB's and hull tanking. Nobody was suggesting the game was broken as such, there were debates, but by comparison very muted ones.

From a PvP perspective, 2.1 all but deleted the original Elite Dangerous and replaced it with another version.

It's in these circumstances that for the last six months everything (for those concerned) has really revolved around trying to deal with the ensuing chaos.

I don't envy FDev the task of balancing combat post-2.1 ... but ultimately it is a job that they made for themselves.

I'll say now, I think we're only halfway there. I think that balancing 2.1 will in fact take a good year.

I welcome none of this. I am fan of the game but a critic of 2.1.

But we are just trying to the make the best of it. The only way to understand everything that has happened since 2.1 is to understand quite how far 2.1 threw the apple cart over.

If you want to understand what I mean, take a look at my (recently updated) all weapon damage tables ...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/246086-Official-FDev-Damage-Stats-for-Every-Weapon

... and consider quite how finely balanced those weapons are, one to the other, like a watchmaker's mechanism. This was one of the things I truly loved about the game - it's why I wrote the tables and painstakingly crunched the numbers for all the extrapolations, using a method I first employed in January to reveal the first figures for hull (as opposed to shield) damage at a time when hardly anyone realised that backwards calculation from resistances and other testing was possible.

Now look at those tables afresh after looking at inara.cz and all the Engineer blueprints. And all the specials. And not just for weapons but for modules - like base shield health going up 400%.

We all know now that it's possible to mod a pulse laser to the extent that the 'difference' between a pulse and a beam as a stock purchase is all but illusion. It's like the difference between two pieces of wet clay.

It's in these circumstances that a most extensive period of re-balancing after 2.1 was not just optional. It really followed - as night follows day - from the extent that FDev were willing to take pliers and a blowtorch to the watchmaker's mechanism.

We are still picking up the pieces - unwelcome though all this may be - and we will be, I warrant, for at least another six months.

So don't bewail the rebalances. Bewail 2.1 Engineers if you must. But the rebalances are emergency medicine for a patient greatly in need.

I agree. Engineers really created a monster. It's interesting in that people really only wanted Overcharged variants back... They were having a balance problem with them I believe? We received this instead. I do like the IDEA of crafting and modding weapons, but unfortunately it's created a lot of trouble that I really don't care for anymore, but here we are and here we will continue.

 

[Iskariot]

Mostly this and his other post seem to be about changing the current game meta.

I have no idea what the current game meta is supposed to be.
I do not acknowledge such a meta.

when will this meta-fiddling stop

Personally I like the meta-fiddling, because I don't even know what you really mean.
You put a label on the tweaking of the game that is part of it's development process and then you want that to stop.

Get rid of the label and it has stopped.
Come back in 10 years and you will most likely find a game that has been completed and will be fiddled with no more.
I have said many times that a lot of people who bought this game did not realize that they bought in to a project in the midst of development (although you state otherwise, you still profess the opposite).
If you can not cope with that then I'd advise not playing the game for a few years.

I don't mind the changes at all. It is exciting and entertaining to me... and I am an old(er) player too.

 

[Soopyyy]

My biggest gripe with the changes is the adjustments to gimballed weapons. PVE combat isn't hard, its tedious. These changes are just going to compound this problem.

 

[Dbrn47]

I have no idea what the current game meta is supposed to be.
I do not acknowledge such a meta.




Personally I like the meta-fiddling, because I don't even know what you really mean.
You put a label on the tweaking of the game that is part of it's development process and then you want that to stop.

Get rid of the label and it has stopped.
Come back in 10 years and you will most likely find a game that has been completed and will be fiddled with no more.
I have said many times that a lot of people who bought this game did not realize that they bought in to a project in the midst of development (although you state otherwise, you still profess the opposite).
If you can not cope with that then I'd advise not playing the game for a few years.

I don't mind the changes at all. It is exciting and entertaining to me... and I am an old(er) player too.

I sure didn't realize I bought into a project. I thought I was buying into a complete idea that would be expanded upon by other complete ideas. My brain was sore for a bit but I got over it.. mostly. Frontier's development process can still be a tough pill to swallow at times, but I love the idea of what they are creating, I love space games and I generally like their passion for the game.

"Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."

An example of that is when heat weapons were introduced. It became THE way to PvP. You could go against that, but heat was so strong that you would likely lose if you did not follow the same strategy. It doesn't always have to be because of something so out of balance. It could just be things that are better, all purpose, or simply more efficient in most situations. The word Meta typically applies to PvP, but it can apply to PvE if there are strategies to engage in PvE that most consider to be the best. For example: If there were hard encounters in Elite that required a wing, the meta would likely involve a ship with healing beams and a ship with massive shields to tank the NPCs. There could be strategies outside of that, but generally the Tank/Healer Meta transcends other strategies when the same skill level is applied.

 

[CptXabaras]

FD is entirely focused on PVP players. I don't like at all the direction taken by the devs. I really hope that ED will have competition soon.

 

[Dbrn47]

FD is entirely focused on PVP players. I don't like at all the direction taken by the devs. I really hope that ED will have competition soon.

I don't find that to be true. I do think they want to have a fun and balanced game for people to PvP in if they so choose though. If you look backward, I don't think they realized there would be people so serious about it. Though feel free to provide evidence that their focus is entirely on PvP players.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

My biggest gripe with the changes is the adjustments to gimballed weapons. PVE combat isn't hard, its tedious. These changes are just going to compound this problem.

Gimbles will be the least of everyone's worry in that regard. Once they load up NPC ships with the Defense modules, TTK is going to go up dramatically. My guess is that against NPCs, it may not even be worth targetting subsystems anymore and just focusing on chewing through hull. Which also means MCs will likely lag behind.

Right now the reaction is not unlike what happened over the AI tweaks and people fighting against them in 2.1b1 in unmodded ships and dying quickly. It started a deluge of misinformation and fear mongering over nothing.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I guess we all aspire to an armoury of Lvl5 upgrades of most items if you want the options.

 

[Soopyyy]

Gimbles will be the least of everyone's worry in that regard. Once they load up NPC ships with the Defense modules, TTK is going to go up dramatically. My guess is that against NPCs, it may not even be worth targetting subsystems anymore and just focusing on chewing through hull. Which also means MCs will likely lag behind.

Right now the reaction is not unlike what happened over the AI tweaks and people fighting against them in 2.1b1 in unmodded ships and dying quickly. It started a deluge of misinformation and fear mongering over nothing.

I use a corvette for PVE and chasing small ships is just an absolute pain right now. I don't even bother targetting sub-systems either. The only one worth targetting/only one the gimballs will hit is the power plant and the Hull of an Ananconda will die before the system in 99/100 encounters.