Mercs of Mikunn - 3 Year report: The Once Secret BGS mechanics and how to figure out exploits

[rekurzion]

Okay so If I go buy a bicycle at wallmart for $100. Should I pay in a $100 Bill, Or will Paying with $1 at a time lower the price?

In this case, were getting paid per transaction. Instead of what the valued amount is. But its not cash were getting in payment. Its BGS numbers per transaction.

This is dumb.

You should get what you pay for. Not how many times you paid for the same item that was same amount in the end.

i think i see where my disagreement is coming from.

you consider your actions in the BGS as payments that demand 'equal' reward, as you say, like the purchase of a car.

i don't view the transactions as a reward for the player, even though they do reward the player, as much as i see them as fuel for the BGS to move and grow. when i think of a value based BGS in this way i see something that is naturally disproportionate (some percentage of players will always produce more by the nature of the ship they have) and unbalanced. if the players interaction with the BGS is fuel, then it makes sense to provide the BGS with an equal distribution of fuel or else it may not work in all places.

if that metric is instead transactions then each player interaction (read: bgs fuel) can be weighted equally and each faction and player have an equal involvement in the system.

the bgs controls among other things
- the super power affiliation of the system and its corresponding buffs (like getting 15% off your gear)
- government types
- system security
- missions (which is the only you can rank up)
- conflict states
- commoditites
- modules

the entire game.

also transactions are an easy value to modify to control (not prevent) abuse. at the extreme fdev could turn the transaction requirement up higher than any player could reach thereby cutting out player contribution altogether. so they have the means for control. all that's left is finding the right transaction amount. and yes, the more people who learn about the bgs the more systems will be under seige and the more 'tactics' (not: exploits) will be scrutinized to make sure there is an equal counter.

 

[rekurzion]

more for a fun perspective.

this would probably be a mute point if we could see/list/turn in individual bounties or groups of bounties like we can with the exploration data.

 

[Jmanis]

i think i see where my disagreement is coming from.

you consider your actions in the BGS as payments that demand 'equal' reward, as you say, like the purchase of a car.

i don't view the transactions as a reward for the player, even though they do reward the player, as much as i see them as fuel for the BGS to move and grow. when i think of a value based BGS in this way i see something that is naturally disproportionate (some percentage of players will always produce more by the nature of the ship they have) and unbalanced. if the players interaction with the BGS is fuel, then it makes sense to provide the BGS with an equal distribution of fuel or else it may not work in all places.

if that metric is instead transactions then each player interaction (read: bgs fuel) can be weighted equally and each faction and player have an equal involvement in the system.

the bgs controls among other things
- the super power affiliation of the system and its corresponding buffs (like getting 15% off your gear)
- government types
- system security
- missions (which is the only you can rank up)
- conflict states
- commoditites
- modules

the entire game.

also transactions are an easy value to modify to control (not prevent) abuse. at the extreme fdev could turn the transaction requirement up higher than any player could reach thereby cutting out player contribution altogether. so they have the means for control. all that's left is finding the right transaction amount. and yes, the more people who learn about the bgs the more systems will be under seige and the more 'tactics' (not: exploits) will be scrutinized to make sure there is an equal counter.

Exactly why I made this comment:

This is where I'd throw out my usual "However, FD's lack of fixing transactional effects, or rather, intitially designing the BGS to function per-transaction, is just a further reminder that the BGS is *primarily* designed to simulate a living, breathing, malleable galaxy, and a strategy game secondarily, but not at the expense of the primary goal". But that always upsets people

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

i think i see where my disagreement is coming from.

you consider your actions in the BGS as payments that demand 'equal' reward, as you say, like the purchase of a car.

i don't view the transactions as a reward for the player, even though they do reward the player, as much as i see them as fuel for the BGS to move and grow. when i think of a value based BGS in this way i see something that is naturally disproportionate (some percentage of players will always produce more by the nature of the ship they have) and unbalanced. if the players interaction with the BGS is fuel, then it makes sense to provide the BGS with an equal distribution of fuel or else it may not work in all places.

if that metric is instead transactions then each player interaction (read: bgs fuel) can be weighted equally and each faction and player have an equal involvement in the system.

the bgs controls among other things
- the super power affiliation of the system and its corresponding buffs (like getting 15% off your gear)
- government types
- system security
- missions (which is the only you can rank up)
- conflict states
- commoditites
- modules

the entire game.

also transactions are an easy value to modify to control (not prevent) abuse. at the extreme fdev could turn the transaction requirement up higher than any player could reach thereby cutting out player contribution altogether. so they have the means for control. all that's left is finding the right transaction amount. and yes, the more people who learn about the bgs the more systems will be under seige and the more 'tactics' (not: exploits) will be scrutinized to make sure there is an equal counter.

To be honest. Not trying to get a laugh or anything.

This feels like Communism.

Everyone shouldn't be treated equally.

From a roadpath standpoint. If people know this. I could buy a second account, and not have to do any engineering. I wouldnt have to do work towards a bigger ship.

All Id have to do is make it to a type 6 and effect anyone I wish. Skipping 99% of the game a lot of us worked for.

Games on sale a crap ton and we now know BGS/Powerplay bots exist as well.

All modes are Equal and All ships are Equal. Kind of makes me feel like I wasted my time. Nor was I rewarded for my time since none of it has been needed.

Im not rewarded for skill. Im not rewarded for tactical decisions inside and outside of the BGS. Im not rewarded for the time I spent creating a ship. You dont need any engineering.

So yeah, there it is.

You should get what you work for. You should use what you worked for. And you should get what you pay for.

And im not seeing any of this.

The only thing we are rewarded for is TIME.

 

[Deareim]

this would probably be a mute point if we could see/list/turn in individual bounties or groups of bounties like we can with the exploration data.

Yes but it is the game. So you could have some fun in it

To be honest. Not trying to get a laugh or anything.

This feels like Communism.

Everyone shouldn't be treated equally.

From a roadpath standpoint. If people know this. I could buy a second account, and not have to do any engineering. I wouldnt have to do work towards a bigger ship.

All Id have to do is make it to a type 6 and effect anyone I wish. Skipping 99% of the game a lot of us worked for.

Games on sale a crap ton and we now know BGS/Powerplay bots exist as well.

All modes are Equal and All ships are Equal. Kind of makes me feel like I wasted my time. Nor was I rewarded for my time since none of it has been needed.

Im not rewarded for skill. Im not rewarded for tactical decisions inside and outside of the BGS. Im not rewarded for the time I spent creating a ship. You dont need any engineering.

So yeah, there it is.

You should get what you work for. You should use what you worked for. And you should get what you pay for.

And im not seeing any of this.

The only thing we are rewarded for is TIME.

Could you please keep the thread on and not making it again an open/solo discussion. There are many of it.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Yes but it is the game. So you could have some fun in it



Could you please keep the thread on and not making it again an open/solo discussion. There are many of it.

Never said a word about it. Im talking about the BGS and how you get paid through it. Either through %'s or influence. You dont need any engineering and you dont need to work towards a larger ship.

Its very much on-topic thank you very much.

Edit: I did mention it but not focused on it here. You arent rewarded for getting better at the game. You can farm NPC's till youre blue in the face and reach Elite status. You arent rewarded for the any of those things. You are only rewarded for the time you spend.

And again, I could get a second account make it to a type 6 and effect someone, At the same rate or even faster than someone with a cutter if I use this method. And effect anyone I see fit. And there is nothing anyone can do about it. Skipping 99% of the game.

This doesnt make sense.

EDIT: And if thats all you got out of my comment above. Is your focus on the modes and not the rest of what I said. You're just poking to poke. There are issues here. And thats one of them. Get over it like you did Alberta.

 

[rekurzion]

Never said a word about it. Im talking about the BGS and how you get paid through it. Either through %'s or influence. You dont need any engineering and you dont need to work towards a larger ship.

Its very much on-topic thank you very much.

Edit: I did mention it but not focused on it here. You arent rewarded for getting better at the game. You can farm NPC's till youre blue in the face and reach Elite status. You arent rewarded for the any of those things. You are only rewarded for the time you spend.

And again, I could get a second account make it to a type 6 and effect someone, At the same rate or even faster than someone with a cutter if I use this method. And effect anyone I see fit. And there is nothing anyone can do about it. Skipping 99% of the game.

This doesnt make sense.

there is something you can do about.

TRANSACTIONS!

 

[Martind Forlon]

I'm interested with BGS for quite some time and it is very likely one from main reasons why I like this game and play it for so long. With this said, I don't think that transactional method is worse as value based. How someone here mentioned already, both can be (or will be) used better by someone with better knowledge & planning and both have strong and weak sides. Like: shieldless trading in solo or afk farming for value based. Transactional method for example allow make moneys from BH/CZ without affecting BGS too much (similar to missions rewards choices) and I think that it is good. Imo in OP is not aimed on problem, problem is the balance between positive versus negative influence and needed time for these actions. When this is balanced, then is imo completely irrelevant if BGS use transactional/value or mixed system. (imo 3.0 helped hugely with BGS matters, maybe it is not enough yet, but I personally like how changes from 3.0 influenced BGS play)

 

[Deareim]

Never said a word about it. Im talking about the BGS and how you get paid through it. Either through %'s or influence. You dont need any engineering and you dont need to work towards a larger ship.

Its very much on-topic thank you very much.

Edit: I did mention it but not focused on it here. You arent rewarded for getting better at the game. You can farm NPC's till youre blue in the face and reach Elite status. You arent rewarded for the any of those things. You are only rewarded for the time you spend.

And again, I could get a second account make it to a type 6 and effect someone, At the same rate or even faster than someone with a cutter if I use this method. And effect anyone I see fit. And there is nothing anyone can do about it. Skipping 99% of the game.

This doesnt make sense.

EDIT: And if thats all you got out of my comment above. Is your focus on the modes and not the rest of what I said. You're just poking to poke. There are issues here. And thats one of them. Get over it like you did Alberta.

Mate, you lost. Just get over it and mature.

back to the subject, even if FD would change it, please imagine the amount QAs that has to be done.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

there is something you can do about.

TRANSACTIONS!

Thats the thing. I know about it. you know about it. But does the average person know about this? You could tank someones system over night.

Remember the Engineers Exploit? That was around for a long time. Way before they fixed it. Almost a year.

It was reported and reported and reported. Until finally people just started making blatant videos about it. People tried to keep it quite. Words spread, everyone and their mother uses it. No different than some credit exploits or material farming places.

There are Meta's that are discovered and used. But the people that dont look for them. The information is not widely communicated with its audience.

And that shouldn't be the players fault. Because; for balance reasons. All info should be up front for all parties involved with a clear understanding on how this game is played.

We all have read the rules for monopoly. A multiplayer game. While I understand this is a sandbox. There are still things that need to be defined within them. There are multiple games happening at once within this game. Its actually pretty neat.

But those different outlets need hardset rule-sets where everyone can obtain those rules.

We need to have clear transparent information for what action in the game does, everything from Trading, to smuggling, to TRANSACTIONS, to Bulk loadouts, Even PVP whats that for?

We need clear cut rules and instructions. Then we can play the sandbox game doing whatever we want. There are still parameters that need to be followed here.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Also, I'd like to see Hazres being able to deplete once ppl put enough effort in it. As in: No more pirates. They got the message. They dead. Sector secure. Probably horrible to balance so we don't gobble up all the mobs like in Ultima back then.

 

[Deareim]

Also, I'd like to see Hazres being able to deplete once ppl put enough effort in it. As in: No more pirates. They got the message. They dead. Sector secure. Probably horrible to balance so we don't gobble up all the mobs like in Ultima back then.

it is a little bit the case already nowdays with a wing of full g5 ships. You have to wait for respawn and quite a lot of idke time ino.

 

[znôrt]

I don’t know for sure, but before we call anyone stupid for a horrible implementation, my guess is that the purpose was to allow anyone, be they in a sidewinder or an anaconda, to have an effect on the game and “blaze their own trail”. Problem is, as we discover the thresholds and frontier patches them higher and higher, the threshold will become out of range of the sidewinder, but still provide an exploitative spamable transaction giving the worst of both worlds.

- first, this is very old news dude. even i knew about it and i don't bother with bgs at all.

- second, you can't split bounty cashing like trade commodity delivery, so your fears are actually unfounded or exaggerated, plus ...

- third, the system seems just fine to me in that it values 'activity' above 'numbers'. so, even if only by coincidence, frontier got that right.

have fun influencing!

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

...
This feels like Communism.
..

This was a triumph!
I'm making a note here:
Huge success!

It's hard to overstate
my satisfaction.

 

[Rob At Work]

IMO - if the system were to change, it should change to an supply/demand/reward based on the % of tonnage you delivered for that day (calculated at the tick - ish)

For example system X requires 2million tonnes of stuff, of which 20K tonnes is water, you deliver 10% of all the water required, if you are the only one delivering water then proportionally you get to influence more for your chosen faction. this could then be reset daily. the price of the transaction should then reflect this rising and falling demand. I don't think using financial transaction is the answer TBH, it's not how it works in reality.

The system is not broken at the moment in my opinion, but it could do with a freshen up.

 

[Lana]

How the flip was I ever meant to find this out in game???


So by making my ship better at bounty hunting and fighting in warzones and getting better at it myself so I can keep at it longer I have actually been decreasing the effect I have on the factions I support. This is totally counterintuitive!

 

[Walt Kerman]

How the flip was I ever meant to find this out in game???


So by making my ship better at bounty hunting and fighting in warzones and getting better at it myself so I can keep at it longer I have actually been decreasing the effect I have on the factions I support. This is totally counterintuitive!

Yup. A big part of the problem.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Yup. A big part of the problem.

I think the main problem is that FDev has/(had?) absolutely no clue what players want to do and do in a multiplayer game and how they would use the game systems available.
I think it's quite obvious that the BGS never was meant to be the game of "Risk" like it is used now. The foundation of the BGS simply isn't made for intentionally pushing the influence of factions in one or the other direction.

And like with other parts of the game FDev simply patches specific problems instead of fixing the system.

 

[Schlack]

And like with other parts of the game FDev simply patches specific problems instead of fixing the system.

Powerplay was supposed to be the foreground "political" risk game. The BGS cant be "fixed", it would probably require a fundamental redesign and rebuild to make it the game we ultimately want it to be.

 

[Walt Kerman]

I think the main problem is that FDev has/(had?) absolutely no clue what players want to do and do in a multiplayer game and how they would use the game systems available.
I think it's quite obvious that the BGS never was meant to be the game of "Risk" like it is used now. The foundation of the BGS simply isn't made for intentionally pushing the influence of factions in one or the other direction.

And like with other parts of the game FDev simply patches specific problems instead of fixing the system.

Could be the case but would be a massive oversight on what players would be interested in.