Mercs of Mikunn - 3 Year report: The Once Secret BGS mechanics and how to figure out exploits

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Powerplay was supposed to be the foreground "political" risk game. The BGS cant be "fixed", it would probably require a fundamental redesign and rebuild to make it the game we ultimately want it to be.

Power-Play got added/patched onto the game after the release of 1.0 - looking at it probably as a panic reaction to the way players manipulate the BGS.

FDev would have to decide what they want the BGS to be. Currently it acts as a basic economical system and a political system.
In my opinion this is one of the main problems.
Separating economical and political (system and station ownership) aspects would solve some of the problems. It would require a political-BGS that handles the factions and has better interaction with power play and the overall political development.
As a next step FDev would have to decide what a faction is. Currently a faction is a bizarre chimera of political party and nation.
How the BGS is manipulated - by value or transaction - is, in my opinion, quite a bit down the list of things that need to get fixed.
And btw, that the BGS is influenced by transaction and not by value (or the other way round) isn't that a much of a problem if things get balanced correctly - an other core problem of FDev. Apparently they come up with "cool" ideas without thinking how that would affect other parts of the game (and other players).

Guess you are right that it's probably an impossible task to fix the BGS.

Could be the case but would be a massive oversight on what players would be interested in.

Wouldn't be the only massive oversight in this game.

 

[Patau82]

How the flip was I ever meant to find this out in game???


So by making my ship better at bounty hunting and fighting in warzones and getting better at it myself so I can keep at it longer I have actually been decreasing the effect I have on the factions I support. This is totally counterintuitive!

Like everyone else who was interested did, playing and seeing what the outcome of your actions was and then trying to work out why

If it wasn't a mystery it wouldn't have been so fun to work it out

Wouldn't we end up with 1 faction for each player and with only 20k systems would quickly run out of space if it was easy?

 

[Lana]

Like everyone else who was interested did, playing and seeing what the outcome of your actions was and then trying to work out why

If it wasn't a mystery it wouldn't have been so fun to work it out

Wouldn't we end up with 1 faction for each player and with only 20k systems would quickly run out of space if it was easy?

I wouldn't call that fun or a difficult game mechanic which requires skill or thought to master, just obtuse and counterintuitive. It's set up in a way totally contrary to how anyone coming into the game would naturally believe it to work. There also isn't feedback which would lead you to figuring this out unless you go far out of your way to do so.

If it said how this worked anywhere ingame I would cut this some slack but it doesn't, instead it's uninviting and secretive. Those are not qualities a game should cultivate.

 

[Roybe]

I wouldn't call that fun or a difficult game mechanic which requires skill or thought to master, just obtuse and counterintuitive. It's set up in a way totally contrary to how anyone coming into the game would naturally believe it to work. There also isn't feedback which would lead you to figuring this out unless you go far out of your way to do so.

If it said how this worked anywhere ingame I would cut this some slack but it doesn't, instead it's uninviting and secretive. Those are not qualities a game should cultivate.

The Black Box was always hard to see into....

 

[Chaparral]

The Black Box was always hard to see into....

You are making my point for me concerning the mysterious and devastating impact the BGS has on the casual player. Counter-intuitive mechanics directly screw with available missions. Missions are the primary vehicle for gameplay for the new or casual player.

The BGS crushes introductory gameplay. It's tragic. It's unnecessary. It forces Elite into a perpetual niche role. 6K active steam players should be a mechanic these clever BGS players could work out - but maybe they can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[Schlack]

I wouldn't call that fun or a difficult game mechanic which requires skill or thought to master, just obtuse and counterintuitive. It's set up in a way totally contrary to how anyone coming into the game would naturally believe it to work. There also isn't feedback which would lead you to figuring this out unless you go far out of your way to do so.

If it said how this worked anywhere ingame I would cut this some slack but it doesn't, instead it's uninviting and secretive. Those are not qualities a game should cultivate.

For us peering into the black box is half the fun, especially in the early days where there was 0 documentation and we had to figure everything out from scratch. You kids dont know how lucky you have it these days!!!

But we have been at this since the start so its natural for us and sometimes forget that it is far more difficult for newcomers to jump in.

 

[Schlack]

You are making my point for me concerning the mysterious and devastating impact the BGS has on the casual player. Counter-intuitive mechanics directly screw with available missions. Missions are the primary vehicle for gameplay for the new or casual player.

The BGS crushes introductory gameplay. It's tragic. It's unnecessary. It forces Elite into a perpetual niche role. 6K active steam players should be a mechanic these clever BGS players could work out - but maybe they can't see the forest for the trees.

More to the point is the devastating effect of casual players on the BGS. Woe betide anyone who is trying to work close to a known and widely advertised grinding location. Pity the poor BGSer who has to live with the consequences of a neighbouring community goal. Spare a thought for those who had engineers inserted beside them leading to uncontrollable madness in systems. All we are trying to do is change the galaxy, bend it to our will and here these lads are chasing credits, rep or mats wrecking our game in their ignorance.

Traffic is the curse of the BGSer. Our game goes on entirely underneath the casual gameplayer who isn't even aware of our existence or the griefing their activities do to us. And here you paint the perpetrators as the victims?

Victims of what? getting boom missions instead of oubreak missions? having a station in lockdown for a couple of days ? You might enjoy a static galaxy but there are enough 1984 artifacts in this game without introducing that particular one.

 

[Starwolfe]

Powerplay was supposed to be the foreground "political" risk game. The BGS cant be "fixed", it would probably require a fundamental redesign and rebuild to make it the game we ultimately want it to be.

They introduced and fixed Engineers, they can do the same with BGS if they wanted to.

 

[Schlack]

They introduced and fixed Engineers, they can do the same with BGS if they wanted to.

I'm sure technically they could, however it would require a complete rebuild so they probably wont do too much other than tweaking the parameters and hopefully adding some more new features.

 

[iFred]

They introduced and fixed Engineers, they can do the same with BGS if they wanted to.

Fixed? It´s tuned, but not fixed. Its like the mission system. 100 reworks, but the basis is still the same sh..t.

 

[Chaparral]

More to the point is the devastating effect of casual players on the BGS. Woe betide anyone who is trying to work close to a known and widely advertised grinding location. Pity the poor BGSer who has to live with the consequences of a neighbouring community goal. Spare a thought for those who had engineers inserted beside them leading to uncontrollable madness in systems. All we are trying to do is change the galaxy, bend it to our will and here these lads are chasing credits, rep or mats wrecking our game in their ignorance.

Traffic is the curse of the BGSer. Our game goes on entirely underneath the casual gameplayer who isn't even aware of our existence or the griefing their activities do to us. And here you paint the perpetrators as the victims?

Victims of what? getting boom missions instead of oubreak missions? having a station in lockdown for a couple of days ? You might enjoy a static galaxy but there are enough 1984 artifacts in this game without introducing that particular one.

So we sort of want the same thing.

A split between the BGS and the casual player.

I'f I'm a casual, I pop into a station in my adder or hauler and I see a mission board filled with massacre missions - I'm going to turn off the game. I don't really care what state the system is in I just want something to do. That is not healthy for the game as a whole.

I would support having a separate menu of generic missions at every station that do not effect the BGS, but give the casual an entry point into game play.

Certainly every city has basic needs for data, resources, law enforcement, etc. that exist independent of the system state.

Solely offering missions based on system state mean the casuals unknowingly screw up the bgs for bgs players.

In addition, the bgs produced mission offerings can be inappropriate for or inaccessible to the casual.

If this solution seems unpalatable - would you support informational text relative to the bgs implications of each mission?

 

[Alikat]

How the flip was I ever meant to find this out in game???


So by making my ship better at bounty hunting and fighting in warzones and getting better at it myself so I can keep at it longer I have actually been decreasing the effect I have on the factions I support. This is totally counterintuitive!

This sums it up here for me, I've been playing for 3 years, just started to focus on the bgs side of powerplay and had no idea this worked on a transaction based economy until this week. I thought it would be fun to spend some nights camping a conflict zone in a big warship and only going back to reload when I run out of fighters and ammo.. but nope, not how it works.

You have to game the system, and it makes me not want to participate.

 

[YinYin]

split between the BGS and the casual player.

That's what picking influence over reputation/credits/items does upon completing a mission.

As well as the transactional nature of other activities.

A little noise from non political commanders seems healthy to me. You get to counter it with focused activities they wouldn't employ.


Also logging into a port that doesn't generate the mission type you want really shouldn't be a problem. Galaxy is big enough.

All you need is a little tour guide at every port you can question about where you can find the jobs you're looking for nearby.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

The transactional nature of the BGS has been the cause of almost all the big BGS eploits. Selling comodities one at a time? Transaction. You cannot convince me that selling commodities one at a time is how the game was meant to be played... and Frontier agrees with me simply by patching it with a limit (that can be circumvented). The problem is you have gotten too acclimated to using an exploit to your own advantage. And now that, as you admit it has been well known, you shouldnt care its being discussed, but you do care that its being called an exploit, when by definition that is what it is. Its just that a massive amount of people do it. And the only ones that benefit are those that know, vs those that do not.

The moment the transactional nature of the BGS was told to us we also tried to share the knowledge of how things work with others. I personally tried to help people who were interested in the BGS workings. That went ok for a while, until I came across a few individuals who have no real interest in actually playing the BGS and contribute to it in a meaningful way. They took the knowledge and turned it against others, wrecking their efforts.

We still inform others about how the BGS works but have become a lot more selective in the process. Now with the BGS forum live there's a lot of information to be gained by anyone who wishes to use it to create positive or negative outcomes on others.

Exploit or not, it is how the BGS currently works. And unless a majority of the playerbase stands up and demands changes you won't see them happening. Which is doubtful to put it mildly.

 

[Roybe]

You are making my point for me concerning the mysterious and devastating impact the BGS has on the casual player. Counter-intuitive mechanics directly screw with available missions. Missions are the primary vehicle for gameplay for the new or casual player.

The BGS crushes introductory gameplay. It's tragic. It's unnecessary. It forces Elite into a perpetual niche role. 6K active steam players should be a mechanic these clever BGS players could work out - but maybe they can't see the forest for the trees.

It was definitely my point.

To be on topic, this issue, like any other issue on the BGS is complicated, as people have pointed out...whether between the idea of its counterintuitive nature, or the simplicity of the idea, or the misuse of the fact to take time away from others.

There are modifications that have been put in place to limit the players power (there are caps on individual input), there are changes that have been made to the game to decrease the effect (missions vs. regular turn in). The devs also have anti-cheat programming to ban players if this system is being abused.

Whether the BGS crushes introductory gameplay? Probably overstating the effect, since most introductory players aren't interested in the BGS, nor is the casual player...and for those starting their foray into the BGS...many do receive this information when they reach out to older player groups...as this has not been a secret, and was reported within the thread of the OP's opus magnum (still couldn't find the original post in the threadnaught...but the original finding was posted there, and has never been quieted on that thread, or any other)... I know I have publicly posted this in these forums in the past, along with many others. I do feel badly for new BGS players who are trying to learn this system on their own, like many of the BGS groups of days past. Once it is figured out, it does reveal the devs design idea, very simple actions create the illusion of a far more complex design.

For most long time BGS folks, people messing in their systems is not a problem...and does not matter to them. Let the damage occur, or fight against the damagers via PVE trophy collection until the interlopers, or the defenders, grind themselves down. Once it stops...repair the damage...and all is right within the galaxy. Nothing is irreparable, and a players group has more gameplay from the emergent content created by the attack, that's what the PVP folks say..so since this is PVP...it must be true.

I am also not saying never or do not change the rules of the BGS. Every update since the beginning of the game has brought some type of change to the BGS....now that the devs have smoothed out the way they expect it to work, I would be expecting some changes by the end of the year. And they probably won't tell us...so we can all enjoy the shock of that if/when it should occur.

As I stated above, it would be nice to see the devs add some real PVP buckets to the game along with PVP missions.

 

[rekurzion]

Once it is figured out, it does reveal the devs design idea, very simple actions create the illusion of a far more complex design.

well said

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I'm sure technically they could, however it would require a complete rebuild so they probably wont do too much other than tweaking the parameters and hopefully adding some more new features.

Rebuild sounds good to me. Same game. Aint nothing wrong with remaking the core systems to reflect the current features and gameplay.

100% for this. Rebuild the hell out of it.

 

[Starwolfe]

I'm not so convinced it needs a complete rebuild.

If it as simple as allowing each transaction to have a larger value modifier to convert it so the effort is rewarded more evenly, then that could be a simple solution.

Bit heavy on that IF tho, but it shouldn't be too difficult if that's the case.

 

[Walt Kerman]

If they put the time in IMO they need a complete rebuild. The current design is far to exploitable. Simply by knowing its transactional, you can come up with ways to game the system. Simply by knowing its value based doesn't bring ways to game the system to mind, beyond getting bigger or better or tougher or more organized.

The BGS needs a redesign. The core concept is fine, but it needs to go through the entire development cycle at least once and be rexamined. No band-aids. We've had three years of band-aids. The BGS is infected with a design flaw at its core band-aids aren't going to help.

 

[Roybe]

Rebuild sounds good to me. Same game. Aint nothing wrong with remaking the core systems to reflect the current features and gameplay.

100% for this. Rebuild the hell out of it.

If they put the time in IMO they need a complete rebuild. The current design is far to exploitable. Simply by knowing its transactional, you can come up with ways to game the system. Simply by knowing its value based doesn't bring ways to game the system to mind, beyond getting bigger or better or tougher or more organized.

The BGS needs a redesign. The core concept is fine, but it needs to go through the entire development cycle at least once and be rexamined. No band-aids. We've had three years of band-aids. The BGS is infected with a design flaw at its core band-aids aren't going to help.

8 months left...and 2 minor updates and 1 major update to core gameplay expected. I wouldn't bet on a rewrite...and, personally am not expecting one. I do expect changes, but I think the heart of the game is now set in stone. I do know that there will be more than a few people leaving the game if there isn't one...so, we all wait with baited breath to see the outcome.