Message to Frontier - ITS SO DAMN OBVIOUS!!

[Soon(TM)]

This game is the ultimate repetitive grind fest for sure. But 12,000 concurrent players, I think not.

Steam usually sits at about 2.5k, it's been around 6k lately due to the new 3.0 release but it will drop back to "normal" levels in a few months.

Only the hardcore players are propping the stats up most of the time, the rest of us have succumbed to the grind.

 

[Soon(TM)]

I don't care what you think, why should fdev?

Don't like the game, play something else.

(stock whinge thread merits stock response)

Ultimately this dude is right, don't like it don't play it.

It's simple really.

You can always come back in a year or two and see what's happening, that's all I do these days.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

We think very much along the same lines and I agree entirely with your examples also and they are also things on my mind.

At the same time I respectully disagree on the point of complexity, I think you're making a mistake by making complexity synonymous with timesink - it isn't.
It would make a tremendous difference to what your emotional responce is towards game, and it shows time and again in any other games you'd wish to compare.

Consider WOLFENSTEIN 3D vs DEUS EX as polar extremes on every aspect from combat to stealth, maps, gameplay freedom, enemy AI, story-telling, graphics and sound.
The second one is infinitely more complex and creates a much more immersive, emotional, unpredictable and straight interesting experiences, wouldn't you agree? That's no offence meant to wolf3d, it rocked at the time.
You'd get less of an emotional responce from Pacman that you would from say System Shock 2 or Elite Dangerous for that matter, right? Complexity and suspence of disbelief, that's all there is too it.

Take stealth/detection against npcs as an example - since it's something at the very core (and clearly should be much more) of the ED experience as seeing, recognising, tracking others on radar and visually.
Imagine a game where rules of detection are such that you can only detect someone within 90 degree front view cone and/or once their heat goes past 30 degrees, as means of an abstract example. The game experience and outcomes of things will be very binary and rather simple.
Now imagine a different game where there are separate cones of vision for frontal and peripheral vision with consideration given to line of sight (asteroids, mountains) as well as backdrop (bright star/dark space), rules of radar detection are based on a floating point value made considering speed/heat/engines-on-or-off of the target. That's just to start with.
This is a of-the-top-of-my-head example, but you'll agree that suddenly with the second game a much greater variety of things can happen and your game world would suddenly make you think about what and how you do much more - therefore making it much life-like and immersive and easier to suspend disbelief with.
And same applies to anything from the micro (USS etc) to the macro (BGS, PP etc) - something you pointed out yourself.
I think you're more focused on emotional responce as a result of some sort of a story, but I think with a game like ED where there simply cannot be a singular story, the emotional responce comes from the suspence of belief in regards to the actual day ot day gameworld - again - anything from complexity of npc interactions to actually seeing some logical difference in various system states.

We could talk for hours but you see my point I think. I see Elite as having the tools to do all those things right and yet not doing it, for whatever mysterious reason. Hence years of complaints of simplistic gameplay.

Another quick example that blows my mind to end this mild rant:
I will never understand how you could mess up something as fundamentally difficult to mess up as smuggling mechanics for instance (though one would argue there simply is none, hence nothing you could mess up in the first place).
Instead of setting a wake dropout point at 20km distance from of the station, refining npc stealth mechanics properly and populating the space between your dropout point and the station with patrols, so that there actually is GAMEPLAY there in way of evasion and avoiding patrols (even some simplistic version of it, a range game, anything),
FD in their wisdom decided that the better way of doing it is making a dropout point at 10km or so and KEEPING THAT ENTIRE SPACE EMPTY, cramming ALL the security at the very station entry, just turning circles like idiots. That combined with BGS and blackmarkets mechanics... it's just so silly it hurts, making smuggling almost entirely a make-believe gameplay in your head. Again, I believe that by changing and deepening all of the fundamental rules of the game, it would suddenly become a very different experience - emotional responce being a part of it if we were to see more dialogue lines or interaction options with other than just reading the 'tasty cargo' 'wedding barge' and a handful of other tired lines over and over at random.

Hence paradoxically some people are absolutely right in saying that ED is a very niche game for those with imagination only. Sometimes that's where the majority of the game takes place, sadly, and you can only take my word when I say I'm not short in the department of imagination.
The problem is in one of two places depending which way you look, either expectations of players like myself, or game design skills of FD.

You misunderstood. I am happy for longer more complex interactions as long as they have a good purpose. I don't see it is a time sink at all. A bit like supercruise, it has a purpose and I really enjoy it, even when there is little interaction. While some see supercruise as a time sink, I see it as a superb and immersive way of flying through a solar system.

 

[crushdepth]

The OP is literally about 'reducing the grind', aka making it easier/faster. You want the core of the game to be more interesting and that's of course very valid, but that's clearly not what a lot of people want: they want it faster.

Well then, make it faster and less boring. So long as the boringness gets addressed that's a win for everyone. Except for that one guy that is going to pop up now and say "but I like to shoot rocks".

 

[crushdepth]

Ultimately this dude is right, don't like it don't play it.

It's simple really.

You can always come back in a year or two and see what's happening, that's all I do these days.

That's too defeatest for me. Encourage devs to make it better, I say. Player outrage is often instrumental in getting games back on track.

This one just seems to be a particularly hard case, in that the lessons of Powerplay, CQC and RNGineers do not seem to have sunk in.

 

[M00ka]

That's too defeatest for me. Encourage devs to make it better, I say. Player outrage is often instrumental in getting games back on track.

This one just seems to be a particularly hard case, in that the lessons of Powerplay, CQC and RNGineers do not seem to have sunk in.

Fair enough, but which 'player outrage' group do the devs listen to:

• The group that wants fleet mechanics?
• The group that want more fire buttons?
• The group that wants Engineers removed?
• The group that wants Engineers rolled back to pre-Beyond?
• The group that want player owned stations?
• The group that want Thargoids left in peace?
• The group that want Thargoids to destroy the bubble?
• The group that want SC eliminated from the game?
• The group that want auto-pilot to handle the majority of the game mechanics?
• The group that want any money-making exploit removed?
• The group that want any money-making exploit to remain?
• The group that like the new C&P?
• The group that hates the new C&P?
• The group that wants (nay demands) new content?
• The group that wants the existing faults fixed before anything new is added?

I could go on but I think you get my intent .....

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Fair enough, but which 'player outrage' group do the devs listen to:

• The group that wants fleet mechanics?
• The group that want more fire buttons?
• The group that wants Engineers removed?
• The group that wants Engineers rolled back to pre-Beyond?
• The group that want player owned stations?
• The group that want Thargoids left in peace?
• The group that want Thargoids to destroy the bubble?
• The group that want SC eliminated from the game?
• The group that want auto-pilot to handle the majority of the game mechanics?
• The group that want any money-making exploit removed?
• The group that want any money-making exploit to remain?
• The group that like the new C&P?
• The group that hates the new C&P?
• The group that wants (nay demands) new content?
• The group that wants the existing faults fixed before anything new is added?

I could go on but I think you get my intent .....

You forgot the group that's perfectly happy pootling around and wondering why people get so irate about a computer gane.

 

[crushdepth]

You forgot the group that's perfectly happy pootling around and wondering why people get so irate about a computer gane.

That group? SPLITTERS!!!

 

[n4p0l3on]

No, OP is just another case of gamers who doesn't understand the game genre

Grind? Roflmao, here is an example I was and still playing Kingdom Come Deliverance, an open world first person rpg. Do you know what you can do in that game? Just eating, sleeping, running errands and combat, all while you are practically just moving back and forth around medieval Bohemia setting.

Take out every cutscenes and the written lore/quests from the game and you would find a game that is essentially contain just leveling up grind fest gameplay and has EVEN LESS depth than the what so often accused with an inch deep game that is ED, and KCD is an open world rpg that is a genre that has reputation as deeper games than other game genres.

And yet the people like OP do not complain about the existence of such games.

And even worse, people like OP bring about the stats from other popular but EVEN LESS deep games?

Roflmao.

Dota?
Counter strike?
Pubg?

All you nut jobs do in those games are just shooting or haxing other people, repeatedly in perpetual circle of such monotonous gameplay!

And people dare to complain ED is an inch deep game.

Roflmao again.

No, these people are simply don't understand what is a space sim game about.

 

[Willa Allason]

Let's say there are 500 different things to do, a world of variety. But one of those things happens to have the best credits/ranks/mats to time ratio. So everyone who wants to advance quickly does that one thing repeatedly and complains about the grind.

Oh wait, that's the game we have. It doesn't have a problem with variety at all. Players have a lot of things to do but one thing is always gonna net the most stuff in the shortest time so everyone is gonna do that.

What you're actually missing is a sense of personal narrative, the one most games give you by having a personalized story and an ending. That's never going to be what Elite is, you make that story for yourself. If you assume that the story is one of getting the biggest most engineered ship in the shortest amount of time...well.

 

[BirdWisdom]

So - you make the massive grind in your game... because you think its the way to keep people playin for longer/coming back to play your game.

Lets look at the facts:

You have around 12,000 active players online at a time (might be wrong here but dont think its far off being next to nothing.. compared to some 'highly successful games' out there.. talking 70k active players; up to 500k active players.. you all know of the games im talkin about).

You have Steam review of 'MIXED' (says it all)

Your forums are FULL of people disgruntled with the current state of the game.

ITS SO DAMN OBVIOUS. REDUCE THE GRIND. MORE PLAYERS WILL PLAY YOUR GAME. YOU WILL MAKE MORE MONEY. YOU CAN USE TO THE MONEY DEVELOP THE GAME FROM:
"ITS GOT SO MUCH POTENTIAL BUT BASICALLY NOT VERY GOOD"

TO:
"OMG THIS GAME NOW BLOWS MY MIND BECAUSE I DONT HAVE TO SPEND 3 HOURS DOING THE SAME TASK OVER AND OVER TO EARN 2 MILLION CREDITS AND I CAN DO MORE VARIETY AND NOT GET SO BORED THAT MY EYELIDS GET STUCK OPEN FROM STARING AT THE SAME STUPID MISSION SCREEN FOR 32 HOURS A WEEK"

Sorry... but starting to lose my patience with these braindead and unempathetic devs.

p.s. One thing that I absolutely love about this game.. is the way the ship handles and flies. The way the engines and weapons sound and look. The combat in rez sites is amazing (for example). CAPITALIZE ON THIS. MAKE IT EXCITING/ENJOYABLE/A BUZZ TO PLAY!! (All the things that Elite currently isn't).
p.p.s. SORRY but I dont enjoy flying close to the ground on a planet for more than 30 minutes, or taking a screenshot of a distant planet (dont mind doin it once.. but that isnt gameplay, or going on a 20,000LY trip with some other individuals where I just hit the 'j' key 2,000 times and watch the screen load over and over and over. THATS NOT FUN! its FLUFF!), I DONT WANT FLUFF I WANT A GAME!

Oh ye - and p.s. I personally dont care whether a planet looks 'redder/greener/more beige than it did before'. How many hours did you spend creating those 'new graphics' when you coulda been working on ACTUAL GODAMN GAMEPLAY? GET REAL.

Ok i feel better now

Yes you have right if you play in PVP but I love to play in solo mohahaahaaaaa [alien]

 

[Sebastian Rooks]

You say its harder to get all the mats now yet you say you would get enough mats for 30 (presumably G5) rolls to get something that was just adequate? (and they are the same mats we need now)

Where as at max reputation grade with an engineer g1-3 takes usually 1 maybe 2 rolls and the max I've had to do for one module at G5 is 8 rolls and its maxed out.

Also we now don't have the ridiculousness of going back two grades if we want experimental effects (or didn't get the one we wanted)

Where in any of my text, did I type that it's harder to find mats? I said it requires more time. There's reports and posts from players in the bug section, about the lack of HGEs, even under ideal conditions when followed as directed. And there are new mats we have to collect now, Boron and Lead for example. So, for the sake of argument, the same mats + MORE of them. Furthermore, if you hadn't noticed, former G5 mats like Tellurium and Technetium, have been downgraded to G4. Their surface percentages have not been raised to reflect, "New & Improved lower grade recipe value, now with less search time!" God help us when they decide to fill up that blank column for the future G5 raw mats. If any of them is Sammarcium or Brabenium, I'll quit without notice.

The one thing I agree with you about, is losing Rep with an engineer when "forcing" an effect on a weapon. That was really annoying. Sometimes though, you'd actually roll an effect and only lose 1 grade, or even roll the one you wanted anyway. (rare) But when did you ever lose any Rep after engineering HRPs, an FSD, SBs or thrusters? Many modules never had an effect that could be applied to begin with, so no one lost any rep with some engineers. With the New & Improved system, you have to spend mats/data on engineers to get secondaries we didn't have to pay for previously. I've spent up to five each for 1 effect, after completing G5. So 25-ish sets + 15 extra mats/data for the special. And I'm now required to gather even more to replenish. So, where's the savings here? It still comes down to time sink.

Don't get me started on the traders. They're sharks. Sure, you can trade down IF you can acquire the appropriate G5s. (again, HGEs an issue here) 6 to 1 is a 600% mark up. Anything above 15 to 1 is criminal. I'd be much happier if I could just shoot the traders, steal all their mats/data and take my chances with interstellar authorities.

Adequacy is subjective and exclusive to the user. I considered 139.8% on just ONE C6 legacy thruster adequate, wouldn't you? Why bother spending 24 more mats/data for 2/10ths of a percent.

All they did was decrease the number of rolls needed to max a module. Except now you have to roll every upgrade for each module. You have to buy every secondary effect. You still have to spend countless hours gathering up junk to do the rolls, especially G5 mats/data. That = time sink and that's been the primary complaint about engineering since it began 2 years ago. "It doesn't matter how hard you try, you can't paint a wall without paint." As long as the new engineering system blows, I'm going to pick the fly $#!^ out of sugar with it. And again your opinion won't change mine.

Rooks (and you don't deserve a salute)

 

[BirdWisdom]

Where in any of my text, did I type that it's harder to find mats? I said it requires more time. There's reports and posts from players in the bug section, about the lack of HGEs, even under ideal conditions when followed as directed. And there are new mats we have to collect now, Boron and Lead for example. So, for the sake of argument, the same mats + MORE of them. Furthermore, if you hadn't noticed, former G5 mats like Tellurium and Technetium, have been downgraded to G4. Their surface percentages have not been raised to reflect, "New & Improved lower grade recipe value, now with less search time!" God help us when they decide to fill up that blank column for the future G5 raw mats. If any of them is Sammarcium or Brabenium, I'll quit without notice.

The one thing I agree with you about, is losing Rep with an engineer when "forcing" an effect on a weapon. That was really annoying. Sometimes though, you'd actually roll an effect and only lose 1 grade, or even roll the one you wanted anyway. (rare) But when did you ever lose any Rep after engineering HRPs, an FSD, SBs or thrusters? Many modules never had an effect that could be applied to begin with, so no one lost any rep with some engineers. With the New & Improved system, you have to spend mats/data on engineers to get secondaries we didn't have to pay for previously. I've spent up to five each for 1 effect, after completing G5. So 25-ish sets + 15 extra mats/data for the special. And I'm now required to gather even more to replenish. So, where's the savings here? It still comes down to time sink.

Don't get me started on the traders. They're sharks. Sure, you can trade down IF you can acquire the appropriate G5s. (again, HGEs an issue here) 6 to 1 is a 600% mark up. Anything above 15 to 1 is criminal. I'd be much happier if I could just shoot the traders, steal all their mats/data and take my chances with interstellar authorities.

Adequacy is subjective and exclusive to the user. I considered 139.8% on just ONE C6 legacy thruster adequate, wouldn't you? Why bother spending 24 more mats/data for 2/10ths of a percent.

All they did was decrease the number of rolls needed to max a module. Except now you have to roll every upgrade for each module. You have to buy every secondary effect. You still have to spend countless hours gathering up junk to do the rolls, especially G5 mats/data. That = time sink and that's been the primary complaint about engineering since it began 2 years ago. "It doesn't matter how hard you try, you can't paint a wall without paint." As long as the new engineering system blows, I'm going to pick the fly $#!^ out of sugar with it. And again your opinion won't change mine.

Rooks (and you don't deserve a salute)

This math is scary so i just stay in solo lol!

 

[Cosmo]

Seconded. The grind is not fun content. They have to reduce it and make it enjoyable, rather than stale repetitive missions. It needs a lot more variety with random encounters, scenarios, story-driven missions etc.

 

[Hexcaliber]

Any content in Elite is only a grind if you approach it as such, the mission terms are simply one way of making credits and acquiring mats, they are not intended to be the sole focus of a players time in game. If a player is intent on repeating the same activity endlessly, that's their choice, but it is also on them and they shouldn't be surprised if it eventually becomes boring.

Want random encounters, scenarios, an enjoyable game, stop approaching ED as if it were single player, leave solo, engage your imaginations and social skills. If you want story driven missions find yourself a theme park mmo or a game designed around a single player. They are a dime a dozen, and work because the focus of the narrative is pre determined, the player takes the role of the hero coming to save the day.

Players drive their own narrative in Elite, we are all little cogs in a big machine until our efforts and personalities push us to the fore. Much of the story comes from the unique experiences to be had when other players are involved. That's the essence of a sandbox game, crate a game world, throw in some toys and let players make of it what they will. Folks are only ever going to get out of Elite what they are prepared to put in, and if you don't like it you are playing the wrong game.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Lets look at the facts:

Let's look at some facts presented how you want them to be and then with your own subjective opinion on top In return, i shall add my subjective opinion.

You have around 12,000 active players online at a time (might be wrong here but dont think its far off being next to nothing.. compared to some 'highly successful games' out there.. talking 70k active players; up to 500k active players.. you all know of the games im talkin about).

As i recall, ED usually tops space games on Steam in terms of active players per week. Sounds like FD might be doing something right. Its highly unlikely ED can compete with more mainstream genre games. There is no guarantee that reducing the grind will increase the number of active players over the long term. It might increase it short term. It might also be bad for the game in general if it becomes swamped with more casual players looking for a quick fix rather than sticking with the game long term (depending on what you want from the game).

You have Steam review of 'MIXED' (says it all)

Ok, so you are saying GTA5 is a bad game? You are saying Ark is a bad game? Those also have mixed reviews. Mixed reviews happen when you have a large % of those who bought it not happy about something. ED has gone through many rounds of waves of negative reviews. Often brought on by bugs or game design choices that don't please a vocal part of the playbase. Often those reviews are never changed even after FD change things again. Give it time, recent reviews will probably go mostly positive again, once the current round of negative reviews have passed, and then FD will release another patch, and for sure there will be something that some people don't like, so they will rush off to Steam to write negative reviews, and so the cycle will continue.

Your forums are FULL of people disgruntled with the current state of the game.

No, they are not. They are full of people with a wide range of opinions on the game. So is reddit, steam discussions, Facebook, twiiter, and other forums. The problem is the digruntled are often more vocal. I mean, you kind of feel a bit silly making a thread praising the devs for their efforts, but someone makes a negative thread and it gets jumped on by many people (like this thread) making it appear as though lots of people are complaining. If the digruntled actually moved on and played something different instead of complaining, we would see quite a different forum. I'm all for those who still enjoy the game offering constructive criticism. Those who stick around whining non-stop though, ugh...

ITS SO DAMN OBVIOUS. REDUCE THE GRIND. MORE PLAYERS WILL PLAY YOUR GAME. YOU WILL MAKE MORE MONEY. YOU CAN USE TO THE MONEY DEVELOP THE GAME FROM:
"ITS GOT SO MUCH POTENTIAL BUT BASICALLY NOT VERY GOOD"

Ah, the old "the game has so much potential" card. Yes, it does, and FD are working on that. However, that potential might not be what you are wanting. And your statement about bringing more players is speculation, especially over the long term. There are plenty of arguments as to why it would be bad for the long term survival of the game.

Ultimately, it is up to you whether you want to grind or not. The game offers plenty of ways to grind. Just don't choose to grind and then complain about the grind. Forget about maxing things out ASAP. Chill out, play the game, and enjoy it, if you can find something enjoyable in it. If not, then don't. Simple.

 

[fozz33]

Any content in Elite is only a grind if you approach it as such

This is key for me.
Some players will never see it as a 'grind' because they are simply playing the game...running a MF, exploring, shooting stuff up..whatever.
It's the WHY they are doing it that causes the mentality of a grind.

"I must have a Corvette so I must go betwen these two stations over and over for days to get the rank" - that's a grind alright. Instead just play the game, work for Fed powers whilst doing that and rank will come in time.
I often wonder what is next for the players who 'grind' for a thing...what do they see themsleves doing then?
They are missing the point of the game in my view. It is not a rush to get to X or Y...the journey is the game.

Same with credit-hunters...credits are easy to come by by just playing the game..no need to rush off and do a task over and over and over for hours for credits.
Way I see it, such play styles are undermining the player and cause the complaints in the first place, as opposed to the the game making you play that way.

Also funny I never heard the term 'grind' before - how come shooting thousands af lads in Battlefield to get a new scope isn't a grind? Or building resources in any RTS to beat the opponent over and over isn't a grind?
The grind is in yer head

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

For me depth is all about the emotional feeling it stirs inside of me. I can live with basic mechanics as long as I get an emotional response from them. A lot of the mechanics in ED lacks that for a number of reasons.

Its probably one of the reasons I am very picky in what I do when playing ED. I would really like to see variations of the Repair/Evacuate type of gameplay added to the BGS for Famine, plagues, wars, civil wars, the aftermath of wars (a rebuilding time) etc. Give these BGS states a sense of meaning. Have the missions and USS's tie into these states. Give more meaning to the USS's. A USS should be a mini mission in of itself. Have reasons why these ships are there instead of just waiting to die.

The same goes for Res sites and Combat zones. We have these nice megaship pirate interactions. Expand them to Combat zones around installations and so on. I want to defend something, not just sit in space attacking endless waves of ships.

Despite enjoying ED with what we have i do agree with all this...... there is no "feeling" about the states of a system, and further more i could be outside Abraham lincoln in sol or Baker terminal in Achenar or sharon lee in Orrere and apart from a different internal graphic - which is very nice but again not unique - there is no way to tell what kind of system i am in, what state it is in or how many people populate it.

it would be nice if stations were in various states of (dis)repair etc. the damaged ones after thargoid attack are great and at 1st seemed like the start of something great... but the fact that it just "happens" on server shut down spoils the effect imo. maybe it is on me expecting too much, but back in the dev diary days i was fully expecting real time construction / repair / of these stations..

and even the rescue of people from the stations........ there is no progress.. those stations house an unlimited number of people until FD decide enough is enough and switch it off. Far better imo if FD put - for arguments sake - 30,000 people in the station and once it was empty it was empty then with just a tiny dribdrab of security and investigation people who want to get off AND on the station. - however also it would mean the attacks of different stations would have to be at different times, not just on thursday server down time so that all timezones get a fair crack at a few of them.

simple stuff (conceptually) which will add a lot imo.

 

[crushdepth]

This is key for me.
Some players will never see it as a 'grind' because they are simply playing the game...running a MF, exploring, shooting stuff up..whatever.
It's the WHY they are doing it that causes the mentality of a grind.

"I must have a Corvette so I must go betwen these two stations over and over for days to get the rank" - that's a grind alright. Instead just play the game, work for Fed powers whilst doing that and rank will come in time.
I often wonder what is next for the players who 'grind' for a thing...what do they see themsleves doing then?
They are missing the point of the game in my view. It is not a rush to get to X or Y...the journey is the game.

Same with credit-hunters...credits are easy to come by by just playing the game..no need to rush off and do a task over and over and over for hours for credits.
Way I see it, such play styles are undermining the player and cause the complaints in the first place, as opposed to the the game making you play that way.

Also funny I never heard the term 'grind' before - how come shooting thousands af lads in Battlefield to get a new scope isn't a grind? Or building resources in any RTS to beat the opponent over and over isn't a grind?
The grind is in yer head

Shooting thousands of lads in BF or Planetside or whatever isn't a grind because it is *fun*. It is *fun* that makes an activity *not* a grind. Yes, you fight over the same maps or bases hundreds of times, but each battle is unique and different because you're playing humans. You might get away with a clever tactic once or twice and then your opponent will adapt and use their rat-cunning to devise a trap for you.

How long can you honestly spend shooting rocks in your SRV without wanting to neck yourself? For me boredom has set in after 5 minutes. I don't understand why people feel the need to defend boring mechanics. Shooting rocks as the main thing to do on planetary surfaces is TERRIBLE.

I checked out the Steam ratings on Elite today. I am not surprised to see it got a mediocre 3 stars, because mediocre is what it is, which is sad for a game with 5 star potential. And no, it's not 3 stars because it's a "niche game", it's 3 stars because its full of boring.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Shooting thousands of lads in BF or Planetside or whatever isn't a grind because it is *fun*. It is *fun* that makes an activity *not* a grind. Yes, you fight over the same maps or bases hundreds of times, but each battle is unique and different because you're playing humans. You might get away with a clever tactic once or twice and then your opponent will adapt and use their rat-cunning to devise a trap for you.

How long can you honestly spend shooting rocks in your SRV without wanting to neck yourself? For me boredom has set in after 5 minutes. I don't understand why people feel the need to defend boring mechanics. Shooting rocks as the main thing to do on planetary surfaces is TERRIBLE.

I checked out the Steam ratings on Elite today. I am not surprised to see it got a mediocre 3 stars, because mediocre is what it is, which is sad for a game with 5 star potential. And no, it's not 3 stars because it's a "niche game", it's 3 stars because its full of boring.

When I need to do some surface propecting I do it in conjuntion with a mission. Get's rid of the grind. Or do surface prospecting when you want to explore a certain place on the ground, also helps with getting rid of the feeling of grind. If you go to the surface with only the idea of getting rocks, then yes it will feel like a grind.

Mix it up a bit, do other stuff at the same time. It can really help.