Mixed feelings and thoughts about the Aquatic DLC.

[Danny_zoo]

Nobody, literally nobody, expects the game to be perfectly true to life, but the game itself is marketed as a realistic zoo simulator. It should strive to be realistic as possible within reason. The people, like me, who are always asking for the ability to make things more realistic are usually the ones who know a lot about zoos - the YouTubers don't, and aren't a good measure of what the game should be like.

"It's just a game" has never, not once, been a good argument for anything discussed in this forum. It's never been "just a game", and that isn't just me waxing poetic about it; that's how it's marketed. Simulation games are supposed to be as realistic as possible - that is their whole appeal.



In this very thread Chante all but confirmed that it was to do with animal welfare. The "technical limitations" mentioned appear to only be some minor clipping, as Rudi discovered, and that only happened in extremely shallow water, not the 2m limit most of us want it reduced to.

At times I wonder if Frontier should have called the game Planet Zoo Tycoon, (only joking of course) since it would seem, there are a few players confused as far as the whole concept of zoo simulation being modeled after zoos. I think there is a general disconnect from a small segment of the players, however, overall I have definitely seen a lot of progress within the community, and their enthusiasm for real life zoos and how they translate into the game. Some of the players and YouTubers have actually visited zoos and started to learn about them because of this game, so for me, that is a plus. But I definitely agree with you that if a player is making his assumptions based on YouTubers, instead of real life zoos, then it can end up like the blind leading the blind.

The one thing that I still do not understand is why would anyone have anything against a feature improvement, that allows for more flexibility within the game without affecting their current preferences. Adding a 2m limit does not take away the ability for players to create a 4m or even 8m tank, so I really do not understand what the issue is. This amazing game is all about creativity and flexibility, and the less restrictive it is, the greater the possibilities. Sure, we can still build realistic zoo exhibits, and just opt out of the new gameplay features and mechanics, but where is the fun in that?

 

[FoxyDee]

After actually building a functioning habitat ready for deep swimming, I think this whole thing even worse with the aquatic animals having only one food enrichment and that is the underwater box feeder. It makes the underwater habitats even more distant from reality, because the feeder wont work even in 4 m deep water. So if you want your animals to be fully happy, you have to have even more unrealistic habitat!

Please Frontier, if the deep swimming is limited by technical reasons, at least give the new animals more food enrichment options, because right now we have to build like 6 m deep water for caimans or otters to be able to use the box feeder, while there is no other option.

 

[Ursidae]

Please Frontier, if the deep swimming is limited by technical reasons, at least give the new animals more food enrichment options, because right now we have to build like 6 m deep water for caimans or otters to be able to use the box feeder, while there is no other option.

What bothers me the most is, this isn't even something you can turn off in sandbox. For instance if you have an issue with minimum space requirements, you can turn it off, but there is no way to make animations play in sandbox in shallower habitats with this diving activation system. I wish the two were separate.

 

[Chante Goodman]

In this very thread Chante all but confirmed that it was to do with animal welfare. The "technical limitations" mentioned appear to only be some minor clipping, as Rudi discovered, and that only happened in extremely shallow water, not the 2m limit most of us want it reduced to.

Hayo, I will clarify further again. The deep swimming system relies on both coding and animation to perform properly. In order for the animals to perform their animations correctly, coding is in place to ensure they have enough room to move around and function as they should. We shared a lot of information about deep swimming in our recent Developer Journal, where we discussed the new system the team created to make it happen. The requirements that have been put in place are there to ensure that you can build a habitat without the animals performing their actions incorrectly or not at all. It is not just to do with animal welfare. We have been passing along all of the deep swimming requirement feedback we have been reading to the team, thanks to all who shared their thoughts on it. The team will be taking another look into the requirements in the New Year, and we will share our findings with you all!

 

[macronecu]

Hayo, I will clarify further again. The deep swimming system relies on both coding and animation to perform properly. In order for the animals to perform their animations correctly, coding is in place to ensure they have enough room to move around and function as they should. We shared a lot of information about deep swimming in our recent Developer Journal, where we discussed the new system the team created to make it happen. The requirements that have been put in place are there to ensure that you can build a habitat without the animals performing their actions incorrectly or not at all. It is not just to do with animal welfare. We have been passing along all of the deep swimming requirement feedback we have been reading to the team, thanks to all who shared their thoughts on it. The team will be taking another look into the requirements in the New Year, and we will share our findings with you all!

It is understandable that animals can't show off all their animations in shallow water, which are honestly all AMAZING animations to be honest, I'm glad the deep diving is so detailed. But on the other hand, they should be able to submerge in water that allows each animal's hitbox to be submerged. What I think is, in order to avoid these two conflicting issues, diving can be allowed in shallow water with some sort of compromise, like animals only performing basic horizontal swims underwater when it is too shallow and doing their full array of animations when it is deep enough. Or in other words it being separate from the welfare requirements like Ursidae suggested. This way different types of players can build different habitats of their liking. Ones who want the whole show, can build habitats with very deep areas, others who want a simple shallow caiman exhibit for instance, can build one that way, with basic underwater swimming. This way, with some compromise, all parties will be happy. I also understand the developers wanting to limit this so everyone can see all the animations at the launch of the DLC, but as you suggested, in the upcoming months when people have all experienced those animations, the limitation can be removed I think.

 

[fraser11]

Hayo, I will clarify further again. The deep swimming system relies on both coding and animation to perform properly. In order for the animals to perform their animations correctly, coding is in place to ensure they have enough room to move around and function as they should. We shared a lot of information about deep swimming in our recent Developer Journal, where we discussed the new system the team created to make it happen. The requirements that have been put in place are there to ensure that you can build a habitat without the animals performing their actions incorrectly or not at all. It is not just to do with animal welfare. We have been passing along all of the deep swimming requirement feedback we have been reading to the team, thanks to all who shared their thoughts on it. The team will be taking another look into the requirements in the New Year, and we will share our findings with you all!

With the Penguins the swimming is beyond what I expected. The actual mechanic for me is beyond what I thought possible. I am not sure what is causing the animals to glitch out of barriers but I have no experience that.

 

[NZFanatic]

Hayo, I will clarify further again. The deep swimming system relies on both coding and animation to perform properly. In order for the animals to perform their animations correctly, coding is in place to ensure they have enough room to move around and function as they should. We shared a lot of information about deep swimming in our recent Developer Journal, where we discussed the new system the team created to make it happen. The requirements that have been put in place are there to ensure that you can build a habitat without the animals performing their actions incorrectly or not at all. It is not just to do with animal welfare. We have been passing along all of the deep swimming requirement feedback we have been reading to the team, thanks to all who shared their thoughts on it. The team will be taking another look into the requirements in the New Year, and we will share our findings with you all!

Thanks again Chante. Fingers crossed a solution can be found. As magical as it would be, I don't think anyone's seriously asking for what Rudi managed to somewhat accomplish (diving in less than 1m of water) but a 2m depth at least for the otters and caimans seems within the realm of possibility. That said, the developers doubtless know a lot more than I do (well...it's easy to know more than almost nothing ) and I'll trust their judgement on the matter of coding and animating.

In any case, I don't see any need to change anything with the penguins or seals. The depth is near-perfect and watching them do their thing really makes the zoo feel far more alive than ever before. I think the only lingering issue there is around the underwater feeder but I see that this has been brought up already in the 1.4.2 thread.

I appreciate the response.

 

[Jeminyne]

Hayo, I will clarify further again. The deep swimming system relies on both coding and animation to perform properly. In order for the animals to perform their animations correctly, coding is in place to ensure they have enough room to move around and function as they should. We shared a lot of information about deep swimming in our recent Developer Journal, where we discussed the new system the team created to make it happen. The requirements that have been put in place are there to ensure that you can build a habitat without the animals performing their actions incorrectly or not at all. It is not just to do with animal welfare. We have been passing along all of the deep swimming requirement feedback we have been reading to the team, thanks to all who shared their thoughts on it. The team will be taking another look into the requirements in the New Year, and we will share our findings with you all!

Thank you so much!

 

[MissySanchez]

Thanks again Chante. Fingers crossed a solution can be found. As magical as it would be, I don't think anyone's seriously asking for what Rudi managed to somewhat accomplish (diving in less than 1m of water) but a 2m depth at least for the otters and caimans seems within the realm of possibility. That said, the developers doubtless know a lot more than I do (well...it's easy to know more than almost nothing ) and I'll trust their judgement on the matter of coding and animating.

In any case, I don't see any need to change anything with the penguins or seals. The depth is near-perfect and watching them do their thing really makes the zoo feel far more alive than ever before. I think the only lingering issue there is around the underwater feeder but I see that this has been brought up already in the 1.4.2 thread.

I appreciate the response.

Honestly, the caiman is so tiny that its hitbox should easily fit in less than half a meter of water. I've even seen saltwater crocodiles and gray seals dive in less than 1.5 meter of water. Considering the caimans are much smaller than even just the head of a croc, it should be possible. Their animations aren't that complicated like the other additions either.

 

[ReptoMin]

A bit late to the party!

Still downloading the DLC, gotta see this for myself but based on what I read here it sounds a bit strange small animals have to have 4 meters of water to dive?

Honestly, the caiman is so tiny that its hitbox should easily fit in less than half a meter of water. I've even seen saltwater crocodiles and gray seals dive in less than 1.5 meter of water. Considering the caimans are much smaller than even just the head of a croc, it should be possible. Their animations aren't that complicated like the other additions either.

This would be even more so with hatchlings of crocodilians. They are even smaller. We are talking about juveniles less than 10 centimetres thick. It should literally take 0 depth for them to be able to swim underwater.

 

[random goat]

Hayo, I will clarify further again. The deep swimming system relies on both coding and animation to perform properly. In order for the animals to perform their animations correctly, coding is in place to ensure they have enough room to move around and function as they should. We shared a lot of information about deep swimming in our recent Developer Journal, where we discussed the new system the team created to make it happen. The requirements that have been put in place are there to ensure that you can build a habitat without the animals performing their actions incorrectly or not at all. It is not just to do with animal welfare. We have been passing along all of the deep swimming requirement feedback we have been reading to the team, thanks to all who shared their thoughts on it. The team will be taking another look into the requirements in the New Year, and we will share our findings with you all!

Hey! I know Chanté is no longer a CM but I still think it's worth bringing this back. Is there any news regarding this? Has there been an attempt to circumvent these deep swimming technical limitations coupled with animal requirements? Deep water requirements needed to prompt diving animations in dwarf caimans and otters are still unrealistic.

 

[Firestar97]

Hey! I know Chanté is no longer a CM but I still think it's worth bringing this back. Is there any news regarding this? Has there been an attempt to circumvent these deep swimming technical limitations coupled with animal requirements? Deep water requirements needed to prompt diving animations in dwarf caimans and otters are still unrealistic.

I would really like it if they can do something. They should also change it so that Giant Otters aren't absolutely unhappy when the Water isn't 4m deep. It's just not realistic for a Giant Otter Enclosure

 

[podna86]

The seals and penguins are a matter up for debate, and definitely comes down to preference. A tank/habitat for seals that has a maximum height of 10 feet is definitely not unusual. The minimum depth in the game for the animations to activate is 13.1 feet, not a big difference. The king penguin is a whole different matter, you would not find anything with this depth anywhere, is just not realistic, but again not the animal that I'm having the biggest problem with.

The giant otters and caimans at 13.1 feet of depth is definitely a problem, 6 feet for the otter would be ideal, even 8 feet I could live with if it was completely necessary, but 13.1 is just fantasy, might as well built a floating island zoo. The caiman should be at around 4 to 5 feet maximum, anything else is ridiculously exaggerated.

Just to be clear, before I continue that you are saying that having a 4m deep king penguin habitat is unrealistic? If not just ignore what I say after this. If you are saying that having a 4m habitat is unrealistic I would have to disagree. I used to dive my aquarium's king penguin habitat weekly and it was 20 ft deep, so was our seal exhibit. I am not 100% but I do believe SeaWorlds penguin exhibit is also at least that deep. A lot of penguin exhibits are very shallow but I do think you miss a lot of behaviors with shallower exhibits vs deeper exhibits.

 

[Bearcat9948]

Just to be clear, before I continue that you are saying that having a 4m deep king penguin habitat is unrealistic? If not just ignore what I say after this. If you are saying that having a 4m habitat is unrealistic I would have to disagree. I used to dive my aquarium's king penguin habitat weekly and it was 20 ft deep, so was our seal exhibit. I am not 100% but I do believe SeaWorlds penguin exhibit is also at least that deep. A lot of penguin exhibits are very shallow but I do think you miss a lot of behaviors with shallower exhibits vs deeper exhibits.

I've always been fine with the requirements being that deep for seals and penguins, because to me there are multiple factors at play

• Size of the animal in question
• Size of the group of animals in question
• How the animal moves

Obviously, animals like caimans and otters which live in rivers and also spend a decent amount of time on land shouldn't need their depth requirement to be so restrictive. But an animal that spends it's time in the water in the ocean is biologically used to more open and deeper areas.

That's why it makes more to me for the requirement for the caiman and otter to be reduced to at minimum 2m.

 

[SalamAnders]

I really don't get why this debate is so much about whatever this is a fair minimum for the animals' needs or not. It should only be about whatever it is a technical limitation or not.

Imagine if you build a climbing structure that was just a meter from fulfilling your animal's need for climbing. Would it then make sense if your animal would never climb at all, just because it isn't reaching the bare minimum for its welfare?

Or what about if you build a shelter that is just a tiny bit too small to fullfil your animal's need for sheltering. Would it then makes sense, if it would never go into this shelter?

Then why should the animals' diving depth needs be the criteria for the animation to be activated? Why not just allow them to dive, whenever it is technical possible?

 

[ReptoMin]

Hey! I know Chanté is no longer a CM but I still think it's worth bringing this back. Is there any news regarding this? Has there been an attempt to circumvent these deep swimming technical limitations coupled with animal requirements? Deep water requirements needed to prompt diving animations in dwarf caimans and otters are still unrealistic.

It wouldn't even take a quarter of a meter for a dwarf caiman to submerge, due to its tiny hitbox, so I agree this requirement should be changed. Perhaps best to disconnect depth requirements from animations altogether. They should be separate things.

 

[random goat]

 

[Firestar97]

Great, can I have them for my North American Zoo?

 

[FoxyDee]

I dont expect many answers regarding anything than some general bug answers about posting it to the issue tracker until we will get a new CM dedicated to PZ I guess. I am sure Jens was specialized in JWE, Jay in PlanCo and Chanté in PZ and Tim their community lead. So right now it feels they are kind of "borrowed" from other games.

 

[Cocolori]

I dont expect many answers regarding anything than some general bug answers about posting it to the issue tracker until we will get a new CM dedicated to PZ I guess. I am sure Jens was specialized in JWE, Jay in PlanCo and Chanté in PZ and Tim their community lead. So right now it feels they are kind of "borrowed" from other games.

Also unless and until a dev confirms that a) it's technically possible and b) they have a timeline to release it you are unlikely to get any answer. They will only say they are working on it if they think it is possible and they usually don't even say that unless they are pretty sure it is. People get weirdly upset about silence on these threads but silence is actually a good thing because if they have determined something isn't possible or they don't want to do it they are usually very up front about it (see waterparks and weather in Planet Coaster, hitboxes and lion remodel in PZ). They said they are looking into it - they probably won't update again unless they have something concrete to announce either way.