Multicrew - Lets Give it some Love Please, Devs

8. MULTICREW AVAILABLE IN SOLO. Open MultiCrew for solo players. There is no risk of ship loss as a MultiCrew crew member. No reason why a solo player aught not to be able to join an open MultiCrew session, and it can also be a nice stepping stone into open play. Open players searching for a crew slot slot can see if its an open/solo and choose "include solo" if they wish. Right now solo players are completely cut off from MultiCrew. One of the big reasons why people play Solo is fear of ship loss, NOT because they dont want to play with others. No good reason/objection why MultiCrew aught not be an option for them. Any opinions on MultiCrew being opened to solo from the solo community @Mad Mike ?
Hi
sorry i missed this.... I wasnt being rude and ignoring you :)

options are always good, allowing a solo player to join MC is not forcing someone to so not sure why anyone would be against this idea......
(mind you i am no spokes person for the solo crowd so am sure there are some who would disagree ;) )

regarding ARX.... hopefully this is just the beginning and FD are still twiddling their nobs in the background for sorting out ARX earning. there is a lot they could do with them, like you say, Multicrew for one... but also CQC... earning 5 ARX per kill in CQC for instance.

I am absolutely not against features which are good for more social MP in ED...... and if i come accross like that i apologise, I just wish they were done in tandem with npc counterparts.
 
I agree with most of the points above. Hopefully, as far as point 1 is concerned, I hope they're going to be working on these on these bug fixes.

I don't think we'll get Multi-crew wings or SRVs because, as Sandro said at Lavecon, there is a technical limitation in the engine which stops that at the moment. Fingers crossed for the 2020 update on that one but not holding my breath too much on that one. Originally, they said there was still going to be a four player limit to a wing, so you could have multi-crewed ships but only if the limit. (i.e. Two Multi-crewed cobra's or a T9/T10 fully crewed with an escort fighter).

The main complaint of the Multi-crew was that the rewards. Crew getting only a fraction of the reward dependant on the pilot's rank. I fell this should be replaced, but it shouldn't be the same as Wing Rewards. If you are in a wing everyone risks their ship, in multi-crew, the crew is safe (unlike any npc crew). So either, the Player crew have to chip in to any rebuy or crew don't get the full reward. It could be a case that they get the full credits but no or limited combat rank. Heck, credits don't seem to matter in this game to much anymore if you can get an anaconda in less that 20 hours these days.

I think the only things I would request are;-
  1. The ability for a Gunnar to target Thargoid hearts. The Multi-crew turrets feel useless without them.
  2. For more than one Gunnar in a single ship. (The pilot being able to assign weapons to each gunner).
The main problem that I've seen though it the trolling Multi-crew where a crew member will get the main ship wanted. Personally, I'd hope that player would get a higher noteriaty and a wanted status than the rest of the ship crew. However, the only way is to make sure is you block that offending player from your crew in the future. I think it's a case of taking the troll hit but then at least you're safe from that player in the future.

Personally, if we get Elite-Feet in 2020, I hope Multicrew will turn out something like Pulsar: Lost Colony.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
I don't think we'll get Multi-crew wings or SRVs because, as Sandro said at Lavecon, there is a technical limitation in the engine which stops that at the moment.

Correct. This is something often forgotten in these discussions. The technical and netcode related limitations in the game will most likely mean bug fixes and improvements there will most likely be very few and appart unless something significant changes in the game architecture.
 
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Deleted member 38366

D
IMHO missing badly :

11) Allow NPCs to fulfill MultiCrew entirely
  • from 3 NPCs manning Turrets and 2x SLF to the CMDR taking any MultiCrew position - that also allows to get all the Controls done and get comfy in how the roles work
  • (currently this requires a live MultiPlayer MC Session, in which a CMDR has to setup everything and learn everything from scratch)
  • cut the "Magic Pips" in half or remove them entirely for NPC MultiCrew
  • and btw. this should fill the empty seats, those have been empty for 5 years now
  • mandatory prerequisite : no NPC Crew Iron Man anymore, this should go entirely. We can eject, so the Crew should do as well; if anything maybe reduce their Combat Rank a tad after each ejection, so there's still some penalty (they're not Pilots Federation Members, so this different mechanic can remain lore-friendly)
Similar to CQC not having NPCs to fill in any blanks (a fatal design flaw), MultiCrew would benefit massively as a feature from having NPCs executing roles
No later than MultiCrew functions are fleshed out and expanded from mere Combat primitives to something that benefits all Professions, CMDRs can take it to the skies with a full crew - be they NPC or Players replacing them temporarily.

Is it ever going to happen though? Doubt it.
After MultiCrew was initially presented and the most important questions answered - full NPC support was suggested immediately. And ignored.
That leaves the Feature half-baked and rudimentary - and under-utilized as it is. Lots of risks to open up critical Ship functions to utter strangers and hardly any benefits to outweigh that.
 
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<Snip Good Observation>

I have to disagree with the flipping between NPC pilot and Gunnar. It changes the nature of combat too much because everyone will move to 3rd Person Gunnar view. I've got no problem with players swapping the roles and I do wish you could see your crewman in the co-pilot's seat. It's just this will turn Elite: Dangerous into Freelancer and that's not the game I wish to play.
 
They will only develop it, if people use it.
That's like the Department of Transportation saying they'll finish an incomplete and unstable bridge only if people use it in its current state.

iu
 
I agree in many aspects. In more detail:

1. FIX THE HUGE NUMBER OF BUGS! First thing on the list. These are famous and need fixing, I wont go into them here.

Hmm. MC actually is not as bugged as many people claim it to be. (Mind you, i am speaking of BUGS here. Not of bad design decissions. Of those it has plenty. :( ) There are some, but some people here still base their opinion on how terrible it was at launch and never tried it later on.

I used it a lot till about a year ago, when some of my casually playing friends still logged in occasionally. Since start of 2019 i only did two or three MC sessions, though. But during the time we used it a lot, actual bugs were not that rampant. The real problems were in the core design instead.

2. ENCOURAGEMENT FOR CMDRS TO OPEN THEIR SHIP TO MULTICREW. There are few crew slots available, it is very hit-or-miss whether you can join a MultiCrew session at all. Mostly a miss. There needs to be more incentives. Could be extra Arx.

Not only this, but also better rewards for those joining up. And the very first fix would even be an extremely simple one: remove the PUNISHMENT for joining a higher ranked pilot. I am not even speaking of an incentive to go MC here, but only to get rid of active punishment.

It's especially ironic: the game punishes my friends for me continuing to play and increasing my combat rank. The higher my rank, the less they get, despite doing the same thing and performing all the same as before. This is an extreme case of anti-social game mechanics. It's hard to make it any worse. I do not know who on the FD team thought that such negative feedback would be a good idea, but i can say that he really should spend some time to learn the very basics of game design.

Where i disagree is using ARX as reward. Pushing and promoting any game activity and mechanic with ARX is a bad idea. Things have to be made interesting by in-game mechanics and rewards. Anything pushed by an extrinsic reward like ARX will be purely seen as grind. People will do it while not enjoying it and hate it even more than before. A classical negative feedback loop. Nothing positive can come out of that, it should be avoided at all costs.

3. MAKE IT OBVIOUS HOW TO INVITE SOMEONE TO A MULTICREW SESSION. I have seen a lot of CMDRs complaining they could not get people they wanted in their crew and it turns out they were just relying on the automatic instancing to do it.

Hmm. I think you're right there. Once you have figured out how to start a MC session it's not too complicated, but if you never did it yet, you have to look around a bit at the start. Intuitive design is something different...

4. CREW SLOTS TO BE SET AS OPEN BY DEFAULT. One big thing that would massively help make MultiCrew more popular.

Hmm. Never affected me. I normally use MultiCrew with SLFs on board. The gunney role is not enjoyable. We tried that once, it just wasn't fun. It felt like both pilot and gunner had merely half a ship available. For the very reason that this is exactly what we had: half of the ship we would have had in a wing setting. With my friends using my SLFs, things felt very different. Everybody had a complete vehicle available, with sufficient weapons, each able to enjoy the game. It's the one way tht MC actually is fun.

5. WINGS WITH MULTICREW! What a massive oversight. So many people would love to have crew+wings but it just cant be done atm.

Absolutely! So very much this! Unfortunately here FDs lack of foresight shows. Wings were designed without even a second of thought about MultiCrew. So when they a little later started designing MC, they realized that they designed something completely incompatible to what they want to do now.

I so much would like if both things could be combined. But based on how things work in wings and MC, i guess they'd have to rework either ground up to get this done. :(

That being said, one good start would be to improve the handling of wing missions when using MC. One of the things i liked to do with my friends was to grab a wing assassination mission, share it with them, then go for the mission. But due to the incompatibilities of Wings and MC, you have to first wing up, share the mission, split the wing, join for MC, fly the mission. That's extremely cumbersome and no fun.

Merely the small upgrade that the owner of a ship in MC can pick up wing missions and share them with his crew would go for such a long way. And this is something where the implementation should be possible with reasonable effort.

6. OPTION TO OPEN 1 SEAT ONLY + other fine-grain control options. In 3 seat ships both seats open up and there is not much control over things. There aught be more fine-grained control over who can sit on your ship, and also what they can do while sat there.

Hmm. Maybe. It's not of any importance for how i use MC, but there might be a use case for it. But i guess when opening your ship for random people, the thing should go the other way: it should display which roles (gunnery yes/no, number of SLFs) would be available.

Would pilots actually open their ship for MC, this info would be useful for others looking for a ship to join.

7. OTHER CMDRS TO CONTROL YOUR SHIP while you go in a fighter. Or go to the loo. Or watch TV on a long voyage you are doing together. For explorers especially I could see how this would be great and am surprised it was not done. Could have been done really nice with expeditions and 2 CMDRs name being on things(as an option for primary CMDR to toggle on). Its a great way for friends to journey together, esp if 1 can control navigation (galaxy map etc) and other flying the ship.

I see the point on the exploration side. I wouldn't give control to my ship to anybody else, though, as i see options of abuse but also the risk of bad misshandling. Mixed feelings here.

8. MULTICREW AVAILABLE IN SOLO. Open MultiCrew for solo players. There is no risk of ship loss as a MultiCrew crew member.

Hmm. From the point of view of joining MC, this sounds like plenty of work for little gain. I mean, if i would want to join some ship it doesn't matter if i have to go to solo, open or a PG first. You log in while your ship is docked, zero risk, then go join a ships crew.

For somebody owning his ship to MC this might be a bit more of a thing. But you bear risk with other players, even if you officially are in solo. As you mentioned yourself at point 10. Not much gained with this, in my eyes.

9. MORE SHIP CONTROLS AVAILABLE TO CREW. This has to tie in with more fine-grained control of what/who is allowed to sit in the crew seat. Right now MultiCrew is useful only for combat, and perhaps(one could argue) mining. It has so much more potential. Exploration was mentioned above, galaxy map access would be needed for a navigator to plot the course, pilot to fly the ship/do the scooping. Srv control by crew member. Fighter to scout planet + Srv. Many things would be great to do with friend.

A first step would be to simply allow the FSS to be used when the ships throttle is not at zero. More of that many people (me included) suggested in FSS connected threads, no need to convert this thread to this topic. But it would really make not only exploration, but also wing missions, a bit more enjoyable.

The mere use-case: i already was successfully interdicted (throttle at zero, so you submit immediately) while using the FSS to find my mark. Luckily the one interdicting me was my mission target, but still: i hate to not know what's going on around me while using the FSS. In a MC setup, the pilot could watch his back, move to a good position, etc. while the crew uses the FSS to spot the mark. A clear improvement.

(And sorry for mentioning the FSS. There's a significant risk now that Burke turns up here and tries to turn it into yet another anti-FSS threads. But it's one of the things which really could be upgraded a lot for MultiCrew use. )

On some other things you mentioned in this point: it would be great to have them. But FD designed themselves into a corner. They built things without planing ahead, then realized that what they build and rolled out is not compatible at all with other things of the game. Getting the things you suggest would be absolutely great, but it would also require a lot of effort to tear down and rebuild a number of things they made for wings and MC. I doubt FD will ever do that. :(


10. PUNISHMENTS FOR 5th COLUMNISTS/TROLLS. Opening ship to someone is an act of trust and deliberate sabotage is not an acceptable form of gameplay. I have no idea how this could be done. But I dont accept MultiCrew treachery as something that is valid gameplay. People know me I am pretty liberal what I find acceptable but this is not.

/sign

Absoultely this. It's why i never open my ship to people i don't know. I mean, with my friends accidents also happened when they started out. They got me wanted and with some notoriety when they were new to the game and piloting my SLFs. But with them, i then just established one rule: the next one to get me wanted pays my beer the next time we go out. (Bad luck for me: from that moment on, they always watched their targets, never got me wanted any more. )

Unfortunately this is nothing i could establish with strangers on the internet which just randomly join my ship. So all the risk would be on me, with exactly one way to control or prevent it: by not using MultiCrew at all.

That's not encouraging to use MC. It's bad and should be changed.
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
That's like the Department of Transportation saying they'll finish an incomplete and unstable bridge only if people use it in its current state.

iu

That would perhaps be a bit too literal interpretation. I think it is more a matter of a team simply having just one shot (or close) at a given project (or part thereof) and that additional resources or funding are contingent to its success level. It is something fairly common in many industries. Some projects (or parts thereof) work out, others not so much.

Also the Department of Transportation is a tax payer funded service of required and public interest whereas Elite is just a game, and being funded primarily by its developer (at least post vanilla).
 
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I think I've figured it out. They didn't cancel the engineer MC role, they merged it with the gunner. That PIP is what the engineer would have done. :D

I agree with Frontier's decision that that alone would have been too boring.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw it.

They didn't have time to finish designing the engineer role (with things like directional shields etc) so just... did that.
 
I don't think we'll get Multi-crew wings or SRVs because, as Sandro said at Lavecon, there is a technical limitation in the engine which stops that at the moment.

Key being at the moment.
And really, we already have fighters - SRV -shouldn't- be much different.

Evidently it is, probably because SRV's were made during the first release of Horizons, way before they started figuring out how multi-crew would even work.
Pretty huge shame they didn't take that into account back then. They did need to release it in time though.
 
All I can say on "more multicrew love" - is "bring it on" (or +1 or me too) - as part of an active player group, it would be fantastic to be able to do more with it!
Plus of course multicrew SRV. Imagine how fun that base assault with Frontier the other week would have been if we'd got multicrew SRV's - one driving and one on turrets.
 

Deleted member 38366

D
I have to disagree with the flipping between NPC pilot and Gunnar. It changes the nature of combat too much because everyone will move to 3rd Person Gunnar view. I've got no problem with players swapping the roles and I do wish you could see your crewman in the co-pilot's seat. It's just this will turn Elite: Dangerous into Freelancer and that's not the game I wish to play.

The key being - you wouldn't have to. It's Optional, remember?

Plus, even an ELITE NPC will fly the Ship drastically different than a Player, reacts differently to various Threats - and even blissfully ignores Engineering/Weapon loadout of Threats.
They don't even have any Egress mechanics (whereas some regular NPCs even have that).
Point being, I doubt CMDRs would all flock to the Turrets while letting the NPC fly their precious Ship all the time.

(alot of folks btw. dislike that "Debug Cam Turret Control" - including me. Never got warm with MC Turrets, alongside all their limitations such as Targeting issues or the poor Situational Awareness they offer especially in a busy Multi-Bogey environment)
 
Also, gunner mode needs to be able to select subtargets. This is especially important for missiles - and makes me unable to really invite a gunner to help me with piracy. You have to be super careful with piracy not to destroy your mark, and being able to target thrusters etc is 100% necessary.
 
MC should be a base game feature, then it might get used more in this so called multiplayer game as i'm not really seeing the selling point of it being behind a dlc. About half the people i play with don't have the dlc so i cant even attempt to use the feature half of the time.
 
The key being - you wouldn't have to. It's Optional, remember?

Not if it gave you a massive tactical advantage, you would be forced to use it. (Oh My Immersion!!!) The Gun camera idea gives you third person combat and that is a massive leg up, especially in PVP. Everyone would be forced into that mode, just to have a chance at defending themselves. Remember they limited the Gunnary Mode so you couldn't sub target because that was OP, that's how much of an advantage you get. (Although I do wish they'd allow thargoid hearts to be target, it makes manned anti-thargoid weapons useless)

Ironically, I probably wouldn't have a problem with a 'Crew' Pilot if the Gunnary Station was more like X-wing Alliance, where you feel you're in a turret covering an arc. There the view is restricted and offsets the advantage.
 
About half the people i play with don't have the dlc so i cant even attempt to use the feature half of the time.
There are people playing that don't own Horizons? It gets so cheap on sale and adds so much; I would've thought it'd be shoe-in for actively-playing CMDRs.
 
There are people playing that don't own Horizons? It gets so cheap on sale and adds so much; I would've thought it'd be shoe-in for actively-playing CMDRs.
I thought that too but of the 3 million who've bought the main game, I think it's only 1.7 million that bought horizon's on top. If the Main game doesn't grab you, people don't add Horisons. It would be interesting to know if there are long time people who are playing the game without Horizons.
 
Multicrew is fun when it works.

It can be for sure - but it could be so much more fun.

The when it works thing hasn't been a big problem for me, oddly, it's seemed to be really solid whenever I've used it. It's like many things in the game, very connection strength dependent.

I especially enjoyed making a multicrew thargoid hunter and getting people in as both gunner and fighter pilot, fighting scouts like that was great, managed to take out an interceptor a couple of times too.

I feel like Multicrew should have been more focussed design wise, on adding things that the ship can ONLY do with crew though, feels like that's why it falls down a bit. Wghy have a crew when you can do it all without one.
 
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