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Fortunately, the ability to understand that this is not a Facebook game is only beyond a very few...
Murder in Space - How it can be punished.
- Thread starter Snarfbuckle
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Fortunately, the ability to understand that this is not a Facebook game is only beyond a very few...
Isn't there a middle ground to be had here?
The game is sposed to be sort of realistic (verisimilitude is the word tabletop RPGers use).
a PC randomly trying to kill me isn't much different than an NPC randomly trying to kill me. I don't know the NPC's motivations to kill me either.
However, in the real world, there's usually broader consequences for randomly killing people. Like the cops showing up eventually. Or looking for you. And there's no statute of limitations on murder. So bounties shouldn't go away. Additionally, insurance companies want their money back, so they're going to take it from the bad guy as soon as they get him. And the victim gets first dibs on that money before the insurance does.
It seems like those concepts just need to be applied better in ED to attackers.
a) they get a bounty
b) their money assets are taken to pay off loss of life/property claims to their victim
c) the insurance company is sponsoring part of that bounty so they can get their money back
d) the cops should be looking for these guys
Which means, barring faction-centric PvP, just ganking somebody in civilized space should get you trouble coming your way and cost you as much as it cost the victim. If every time you killed somebody your bank account dipped by a lot, you might think twice before initiating combat.
I agree that the "play solo/play mobius" brigade does nothing but cause my eyes to roll. I think the problem stems from a hyperbolic representation of playing in open, as if a psycho is hiding around every corner. I've played the game almost entirely in open and the horror stories over the last 6 months after launch are really few and far between to the point of non-existence. I don't feel like I need to have the "god mode" ship to participate in it but at the same time I deliberately don't go to the flash points in an unshielded trader and complain when I get blown up (believe me, some people do, I've seen them even at community goals in open.... greedy little nutters.)
I'm pretty much happy with the way open stands as is, I rarely encounter trouble and use the right ship and equipment when I expect to. Doing trade community goals in a Type 7 (one of THE most vulnerable ships due to its slow speed) I made sure that I equipped a good shield, thrusters, chaff and SCBs. All that happened was that I got pirated twice, dropped less than 5% of my cargo for both, barely denting my profit margin, let alone the bonus from the CG and carried on. I made about 10-20 trips with only those two occurences of piracy. I even got chatting with a couple of commanders and we winged up jumping between the stations. The Viper I winged with was almost disappointed about the lack of action although he did destroy a rather amibitious Cobra that went for me.
Open as it stands provides a dynamic and entertaining experience that goes beyond what can be experienced in solo or open. The existence of random pking crazies has not dampened the Open population from what I can see and I doubt it will.
As a final note, the whole "traders will move to solo" is pretty much moot as I doubt many people solely do one occupation. In the last few days I've been a smuggler, a bounty hunter, a trader, an explorer (slightly) and a warrior/agitator for my faction. For me this is THE way to experience this game, taste all the flavours of the rainbow, do a bit of everything, if it's there, why not experience it? This is THE evolution of the Frontier Elite that I loved as a teenager and provides so much more than that too. Get involved, hunt the psychos, target the pirates, protect the traders, help your faction. Whatever you do, enjoy it and if you're up for the added dynamism, select open, but go in with eyes wide to all its possibilities.
Careful.. don't use the "c" word! (you almost did)... You literally get an infraction for that here. The irony is palatable.
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From what i am seeing here, no one is complaining about PvP in terms of piracy or bounty hunting , its just from people killing for the hell of it.
now say what you like about if you do not want to die for any and every reason or you should not play in open, but all most here are asking for are the deterrents to be put in place which were ALWAYS said would be in place.
We were told that killing for lolz would be possible, but that players who do it would face serious in game repercussions such that it would act like a deterrent.
All people are asking for here is for those mechanics to be implemented. I would never complain about a pirate demanding I drop some of my cargo, nether would I moan if I had a bounty and was attacked by a bounty hunter AND I wouldnt even moan if I was attacked for no reason at all, so long as I knew the game would hammer them for it.
The hypocrisy of those attackers who claim traders or explorers getting blown up for no reason at all loosing hrs - potentially months in the case of explorers - are carebears when all they themselves face losing is a few million on a vulture just blows my mind - esp when some openly boast that all they do is go in a sidewinder and let someone blow them up to clear their bounty.
IF you want to roll play a psycho lunatic who just wants to see the world burn then RP said lunatic, but it boggles me that you some how think that you should not get the stick to go with it.
PS I wonder how many in this thread here saying just go and play in solo are the same people who are in the open vs solo thread demanding that solo needs to be gotten rid of?.
now say what you like about if you do not want to die for any and every reason or you should not play in open, but all most here are asking for are the deterrents to be put in place which were ALWAYS said would be in place.
We were told that killing for lolz would be possible, but that players who do it would face serious in game repercussions such that it would act like a deterrent.
All people are asking for here is for those mechanics to be implemented. I would never complain about a pirate demanding I drop some of my cargo, nether would I moan if I had a bounty and was attacked by a bounty hunter AND I wouldnt even moan if I was attacked for no reason at all, so long as I knew the game would hammer them for it.
The hypocrisy of those attackers who claim traders or explorers getting blown up for no reason at all loosing hrs - potentially months in the case of explorers - are carebears when all they themselves face losing is a few million on a vulture just blows my mind - esp when some openly boast that all they do is go in a sidewinder and let someone blow them up to clear their bounty.
IF you want to roll play a psycho lunatic who just wants to see the world burn then RP said lunatic, but it boggles me that you some how think that you should not get the stick to go with it.
PS I wonder how many in this thread here saying just go and play in solo are the same people who are in the open vs solo thread demanding that solo needs to be gotten rid of?.
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I think I can agree with most of this, certainly from the explorers perspective as I know just how much time and effort goes in to it and thus can be lost. I'm all for giving the psychos more to deal with but the only suggestion so far that is even vaguely reasonable came from goemon about player bounties. The rest seem to lie in the realm of insanity.
Easy fix for this.
The bounty just make it adjustable. Depending on the target. If they are lower ranked skill then the attacker you get higher bounty. Plus if the target had cargo you should get say 10% of the bought value of the cargo in fines. Also i think if the cmdr is lower ranked then your ranking should also drop.
There has to be a fix to the problem of loosers buying a sidewinder and going out and getting killed to get bounty taken away. Whats the point of having a bounty if you can just wipe it all off easy like that. I dont understand how the Devs havnt fixed that MAJOR flaw in the game.
How about this the bounty comes out of the players credit account they are paying retribution for their actions. There i think i fixed the buying cheap based sidewinder to wipe huge bounties.
The bounty just make it adjustable. Depending on the target. If they are lower ranked skill then the attacker you get higher bounty. Plus if the target had cargo you should get say 10% of the bought value of the cargo in fines. Also i think if the cmdr is lower ranked then your ranking should also drop.
There has to be a fix to the problem of loosers buying a sidewinder and going out and getting killed to get bounty taken away. Whats the point of having a bounty if you can just wipe it all off easy like that. I dont understand how the Devs havnt fixed that MAJOR flaw in the game.
How about this the bounty comes out of the players credit account they are paying retribution for their actions. There i think i fixed the buying cheap based sidewinder to wipe huge bounties.
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Two-step process to fix murder:
1. Make the bounty assigned for murder the same amount as the murder victim's rebuy cost.
2. Pay bounties out of the destroyed criminal's assets instead of having the local government pay the bounty from its own pocket.
Would also cause an interesting counter-bounty playstyle. After all, if you get killed for your bounty by Bob the bounty hunter, you are gonna wanna haul butt to find him and kill him before he cashes in your bounty, because if you do not, all the murder you have done in this system is gonna come out of your pocket when he cashes the bounty for this system.
Oh! Or, maybe....
Make it so that any bounties against you in a system are added to YOUR rebuy cost in that system. So if you kill ten people in Lave, and then die to a bounty hunter or system security and try to rebuy in Lave, then you would need to pay both your bounty AND your rebuy cost to get your ship. If you cannot afford to, well... sucks that you died in a system where you were wanted.
1. Make the bounty assigned for murder the same amount as the murder victim's rebuy cost.
2. Pay bounties out of the destroyed criminal's assets instead of having the local government pay the bounty from its own pocket.
Would also cause an interesting counter-bounty playstyle. After all, if you get killed for your bounty by Bob the bounty hunter, you are gonna wanna haul butt to find him and kill him before he cashes in your bounty, because if you do not, all the murder you have done in this system is gonna come out of your pocket when he cashes the bounty for this system.
Oh! Or, maybe....
Make it so that any bounties against you in a system are added to YOUR rebuy cost in that system. So if you kill ten people in Lave, and then die to a bounty hunter or system security and try to rebuy in Lave, then you would need to pay both your bounty AND your rebuy cost to get your ship. If you cannot afford to, well... sucks that you died in a system where you were wanted.
Don't like getting killed by other players? I believe what you are looking for is SOLO MODE...... and it is ------> that way.
Now go have fun!
It is so funny to me that the players that dont like pvp are the ones that want to play in open the most.... the solution is already incorporated in game for carebears.... it is solo mode
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Whilst that's an interesting solution I still see this as a way of punishing pirates. If a trader knows that a pirate isn't going to want to swallow such an additional cost, in addition to the risk of bounty hunters that they already face, then the trader will run every time because they know that the pirate can't take the hit of a Type 9 rebuy. Considering that piracy isn't the best of money earners this idea, whilst noble, would end up killing piracy which is something many open players wouldn't want to see.
Speaking as a pirate I don't think your idea will do much to deter me, (or any pirate) from killing uncooperative traders. I also don't see many psycho killers being deterred either.
The worst part is the elite status rep loss. Even then, as long as it's not too high I wouldn't even care.
Being hostile with a faction isn't that much of a difference. As a pirate you're wanted anyway so it's the difference between, being shot at immediately or after a 5 second scan.
The worst part is the elite status rep loss. Even then, as long as it's not too high I wouldn't even care.
Being hostile with a faction isn't that much of a difference. As a pirate you're wanted anyway so it's the difference between, being shot at immediately or after a 5 second scan.
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Piracy is like a mugging. If you kill someone while mugging them, the consequences if caught are life-changing (and likely ending). But if you just take their wallet by force and leave them alive, the legal trouble is far less.
If someone refuses to give you (the pirate) a cut of their cargo, then blast their FSD and limpet-hack the cargo hold. Although.... you would need some way to discourage combat-logging. Removing the ability to combat-log and leaving the ships of hard-disconnected players in space for a minute or two, perhaps. In any case, you might still get a bounty, but it would be for less than a murder, and you would not have their rebuy to be held against you.
But yeah, I feel super bad for pirates. Piracy SHOULD be a viable play style, but it is really hard to make laws that are fair both IC and OOC.
The problem with this is that all it takes is one point defence turret to make limpets unusable. Take this from someone who tried to get hold of an unknown artifact. Even if you blow the cargo hatch you get very little... again, that darn unknown artifact refused to drop. So as it stands the pirate's best option is the "stand and deliver" tactic. If the trader realises that the cost for the pirate is potentially going to bankrupt them then they're potentially more likely to just run and leave the pirate without any option.
The thing is, the whole idea of giving the pirate the rebuy cost could bankrupt them back into a Sidewinder in one evening's worth of play. Heck, just tonight I've killed several ships to stop them delivering to a powerplay faction (mostly npcs) to then get my ship destroyed and find my Vulture rebuy has entered the millions is crazy.
To cut potential "oh boo poor pirates" replies off at the pass from other posters. You kill player piracy, you kill player bounty hunting. Two of the most fascinating unique aspects of open play.
What's your problem? FD already made a game mode for players like you. It is called SOLO MODE. Let me spell that. S O L O mode. And if you don't want to be hurt by other players, G R O U P mode. Open mode is for the hardcore players that like real consequences and challenge.
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a player playing in the universe built for me.
No, you're not gonna like this--wait, you'll love this! The biggest mistake FD ever made was catering to the folks who were upset when they made it open only, by including a solo mode. It should have been open from the get go and stayed that way. Then we wouldn't have issues like this. Everyone would understand what the modes are because there would be only one mode. Open mode. And open mode is self explanatory.
However, since we have three modes, the lines are confusing, I suppose.
Whatever. Play in your solo or group mode. Leave open mode for the rest of us to play how open mode is played--and if you're curious how it is played... it is played... however you want! (as long as you don't cheat and do stupidly lame stuff like cargo bombing/server crashing).
I'm a pirate. I didn't kill traders out of spite and despite my tough guy attitude, still don't, because I feel FD will rectify the 20 ton cargo limit situation so my career choice is viable again. What I DO kill is players in armed ships that can fight back. I'll murder them all night long until I can go back to my usual business of tax collecting.
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Murdering is not griefing. Murdering is a valid gameplay mechanic. You are using the word griefing... WRONG.
Like I said earlier--you want real consequences for murderers, then you need real consequences pertinent to the daily grind for being good. That means minimal pay, maximum effort, overtime and little reward. If you want realism, we can go full realism. But... if we did... it'd be a game nobody wants to play.
Just what do you think those hardpoints on your ship are for? Sparklers? Flower pots? Tribbles?
I'd be quite happy if traders ships were forced to stay in an instance for a few minutes so I could pillage their hold. IF a few things happened:
1. Their ships stopped moving when I blew out their drives.
2. When I shoot out the hatch completely, all the cargo spills out.
3. When I shoot out the hatch completely, I can limpet as much as I want to grab cargo.
4. The cops don't show up for an extended period of time so I can pick up that cargo.
Make those happen and it'll be great. I won't kill any of the traders. I try to kill as few as possible as is. I don't like killing plants that might continue to bear fruit.
But as it is right now, traders run, traders die... until they stop running. And if they stop soon enough, they pay the tax and get to live.
Lol your double standards are laughable. THIS is what players are asking for and what was promised. How in your world can it be that it is the player in a type 6 who looses hrs of play who is the one who is not hardcore but the killer in the combat ship is?. The ONLY risk for a ganker right now is the in game consequences and these are what are laughable and currently not working as advertised.
You say you want no police responds for extended time when you attack someone? Well attack them in anarchy then!.
You want hardcore? That is fine but it should be fair and equitable hardcore not just hardcore to the trader.
For real pirates that may not be far off..... Pirate 10 people costing them each maybe 20 mins gameplay in profits then get blown up then you "owe" about 200 mins in inconvenience.
But the idiot who blows everything up for lols HE is not hardcore, he is causing days or more of pain and getting barely any back in return.
You said to me to make it realistic trading needs to be made unviable with 100 credit profits max? I call . I was not asking gankers have their accounts terminated to simulate a life in prison which is the equivalent you are calling for.
Action > consequence that is all most of us want
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I don't understand what you are getting at. The "Ganker" in Open can also loose and have his ship destroyed, thus loosing hours of gameplay. And if loosing hours of gameplay is an issue for the T6 owner, then he could play in Solo or group.
Plus, the bounty system is working more or less as it always has, I don't understand how that could be misleading. Why do you think it has fundamentally changes from your Elite or Frontier-Elite2 experience?
And I still don't get the whole discussion. It revolves only around telling other people how they should play the game (you should not blow up other ships like the NPCs do), when other PC pilots are only affected when they actively choose to do so.
That's ridiculous. Murder is supposed to be a part of the game. The goal is to keep it in check, not eradicate it.
Imo the problem is that it's too easy to avoid paying your legacy fines: just don't dock where you commit crimes, and you'll never have to pay a dime. I think the solution is to either force you to pay your legacy fines everytime you die, or just make the bounties bigger, easier to detect, and faction-wide. In other words, let the bounty hunters do the work.
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