Murder

[Ian Doncaster]

Colonia is it's own special beast in means of the BGS, so whatever happens there is something you can't compare to the bubble.

I have seen no evidence that anything in the BGS has special rules for Colonia - do you have any examples?

Certainly the initial conditions are very different to an arbitrary clump of the procedurally-generated Sol bubble - far fewer native factions per system, two adjacent BGS-locked systems with low faction counts, the near omnipresence of Colonia Council, and the universally low system populations - but beyond initial set up everything appears to proceed according to exactly the same rules as normal.

 

[Starwolfe]

I have. Tried tanking an Election through Murder to win, and instead a few grinders pushed the other side and won.

Also have tested it with bounties extensively since, Election is indeed blocking combat actions - but the missions are working fine during it.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Elections are good in that regard - they prevent bounties and Murder from effecting influence while it is live.

Can confirm that. Last Election we've had there was an interesting fellow who increased his bounty in our Systems to over 1.2mil. The effect on our Systems was 0.

 

[Jane Turner]

That's good to know!

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

I have seen no evidence that anything in the BGS has special rules for Colonia - do you have any examples?

Certainly the initial conditions are very different to an arbitrary clump of the procedurally-generated Sol bubble - far fewer native factions per system, two adjacent BGS-locked systems with low faction counts, the near omnipresence of Colonia Council, and the universally low system populations - but beyond initial set up everything appears to proceed according to exactly the same rules as normal.

You delivered the evidence earlier yourself. I've yet to witness in our area that you switch instantly from one type of State into another without a 24h cooldown period between. Never has been witnessed here, yet from my memory I've seen a MF in two Systems having Wars at the same time in the Colonia region.

Aside from that the other things you mentioned are also quite crucial to the difference. The Systems around Colonia are as you stated low in population, therefore easy to manipulate. Very few MF per System, adding to increased % swings. Last but not least the concentration of Players working these MF and you have another factor why Colonia is different then the rest of the bubble.

An abritrary clump of the bubble has probably more Players frequenting it, but due to it's vastly bigger MF count and different population densities the effects are lessened.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

You delivered the evidence earlier yourself. I've yet to witness in our area that you switch instantly from one type of State into another without a 24h cooldown period between.

My understanding is that lower-priority state to higher-priority state should never require a 1-day clear period between (which allows the transition up the priorities to potentially appear to clear some pending states by making them only active for milliseconds) ... higher-priority state to lower-priority state almost always does require a clear period but I wouldn't want to claim that as an absolute rule.

I don't believe this differs for Colonia (and I don't think the example I gave in this thread says anything about that one way or another)

Never has been witnessed here, yet from my memory I've seen a MF in two Systems having Wars at the same time in the Colonia region.

That could theoretically have happened in the bubble (and possibly even did but wasn't noticed, because the bubble is really big and mostly unmonitored) - it was a bug to do with expansion-by-invasion, which requires pretty specific conditions much harder to generate in most of the bubble than in Colonia.

They fixed that (or at least most of it) in 2.4.03: "Implemented a fix to stop factions trying to invade during an expansion when they already had a conflict pending"

(At least, I think they fixed it. Adding that condition has made expansion-by-invasion much harder to get started in the first place, so no-one has managed it since 2.4, so it's hard to tell if the fix actually worked...)

Aside from that the other things you mentioned are also quite crucial to the difference.

Oh, the BGS in Colonia certainly works out quite differently to the BGS in Sol. No doubt about that. However, so far as I can tell that's all to do with applying the same rules to very different initial conditions - which is fascinating, and what really got me in to BGS watching. Things like "what does murder do", "what does a Boom state do", etc. I would be extremely surprised to find any difference in.

 

[Schlack]

I stand corrected!

Preliminary test results indicate that yes indeed it is the murdered faction that takes the hit and not the ruling faction. Were doing some more testing to confirm in a number of scenarios, but OP was right! (a phrase never uttered before on the internet).

Talking it over we are sure we missed this because of our focus on sys authority killing, which only appear in the target factions jurisdiction. This masked the real mechanic.

 

[irongut]

I spotted this thread a few days ago and found myself strangely in disagreement with several people whose BGS knowledge I respect. My previous experience murdering a non-controlling faction had shown that they take the hit and the controller is unaffected (apart from the influence gain all factions get due to the murdered faction's loss). So I decided to run a test to see if anything had changed...

Population = 10k
Controller: KJTC
Target: KI

23/01/2018
KJTC = 55.8% Retreat
KI = 13.6% Expansion (Boom); Kills = 10
No traffic, bounty or crime reports.

24/01/2018
KJTC = 64.0% None
KI = 1.0% Expansion (Boom / CU / Lockdown / Retreat)
Only me on reports.

My test agreed with my previous experience, if you kill clean ships belonging to a faction they will lose influence and get Civil Unrest and Lockdown pending. It does not harm the system's controlling faction.

 

[CMDR Endincite]

Cool, guys.
I had my own test running but it was botched by some darned randoms showing up on the traffic report (shaky fist).

Hopefully we can do some more collaborative testing during & after beta.

Cheers.

Edit: @Schlack if you do conclude the test do please post and I'll link yours alongside Irongut's to the OP, as an easy "Resolved" reference.

 

[Schlack]

We are continuing to test to confirm. I am sure that at one point it was jurisdiction that mattered as we did a lot of testing waaay back when

 

[CMDR Endincite]

We are continuing to test to confirm. I am sure that at one point it was jurisdiction that mattered as we did a lot of testing waaay back when

Indeed that may have been the source of the "hunch" that led us to test this in the first place. No matter; onward and forward.

 

[Starwolfe]

Wish I kept better records (and didn't lean so heavily on anonymity for BGS success) I'd share what I have... but I do this frequently.

So.. I told you so. (In a good way)

 

[_trent_]

I spotted this thread a few days ago and found myself strangely in disagreement with several people whose BGS knowledge I respect. My previous experience murdering a non-controlling faction had shown that they take the hit and the controller is unaffected (apart from the influence gain all factions get due to the murdered faction's loss). So I decided to run a test to see if anything had changed...

Population = 10k
Controller: KJTC
Target: KI

23/01/2018
KJTC = 55.8% Retreat
KI = 13.6% Expansion (Boom); Kills = 10
No traffic, bounty or crime reports.

24/01/2018
KJTC = 64.0% None
KI = 1.0% Expansion (Boom / CU / Lockdown / Retreat)
Only me on reports.

My test agreed with my previous experience, if you kill clean ships belonging to a faction they will lose influence and get Civil Unrest and Lockdown pending. It does not harm the system's controlling faction.

Well, I learned something new today. [up]

Did you pull the clean ships out of supercruise or attack them at a nav beacon?

 

[MottiKhan]

I spotted this thread a few days ago and found myself strangely in disagreement with several people whose BGS knowledge I respect. My previous experience murdering a non-controlling faction had shown that they take the hit and the controller is unaffected (apart from the influence gain all factions get due to the murdered faction's loss). So I decided to run a test to see if anything had changed...

Population = 10k
Controller: KJTC
Target: KI

23/01/2018
KJTC = 55.8% Retreat
KI = 13.6% Expansion (Boom); Kills = 10
No traffic, bounty or crime reports.

24/01/2018
KJTC = 64.0% None
KI = 1.0% Expansion (Boom / CU / Lockdown / Retreat)
Only me on reports.

My test agreed with my previous experience, if you kill clean ships belonging to a faction they will lose influence and get Civil Unrest and Lockdown pending. It does not harm the system's controlling faction.

Nice test. I stand corrected. Thanks for testing and publishing this.

 

[Jane Turner]

We are continuing to test to confirm. I am sure that at one point it was jurisdiction that mattered as we did a lot of testing waaay back when

Its one of the joys of the BGS that you can never assume its "static".

In our defence we've never really used murder as a thing apart from against one irksome player group.... and thanks Irongut!

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Its one of the joys of the BGS that you can never assume its "static".

In our defence we've never really used murder as a thing apart from against one irksome player group.... and thanks Irongut!

I'd also like to extend my thanks for testing and confirming. Though, with 3.0 approaching we might need to ask for a retest once it's implemented.

For if we know one thing it's that changes to the BGS never come publicly but subtle and silent. Like this guy...

 

[Schlack]

I'd also like to extend my thanks for testing and confirming. Though, with 3.0 approaching we might need to ask for a retest once it's implemented.

For if we know one thing it's that changes to the BGS never come publicly but subtle and silent. Like this guy...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...yitmann.png/revision/latest?cb=20140618173452

Theyre not always subtle or quiet if you recall the bounty effect overhaul. Absolute shipstorm

 

[_trent_]

There was a time that I suspected that FD made changes to the BGS just to throw the BGS players a curveball.

Now, however, I am certain of it.

 

[Schlack]

Oh they most definately do. Thats why hamsters feature large in bgs discussions. The server is powered by a hamster in a wheel and were hamsters running through fds maze.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Just been around in the Beta a bit, and...folks, if they keep the ATR and the way things are handled all the way to the regular game, Murder is a thing of the past. Unless naturally you have a buckload of cash to pay off all those destroyed ships of yours.