My issue with Odyssey Engineering

[Straker]

I know this thread is about not taking the easy route but honestly, the way engineers work in ED, the scarcity of certain materials & data, the repetition, counter intuitive game play, relogging...in short the grind, I'll take any shortcut I can get.

I originally started this thread not because I was looking for an 'easy route' but because I believe the lock-in suite and weapon engineering is a poor design. As I indicated, if they let us overwrite or delete mods then we still need to gather the mats for the new mod, so there is no shortcut or easy route there. However, by not allowing us to experiment by deleting mods, it creates a massive grind wall if you want to experiment or make mistakes, especially on grade 5 suites and weapons.

So, I'm not looking for a 'shortcut', I'm looking for a better design.

 

[Urbanski101]

I originally started this thread not because I was looking for an 'easy route' but because I believe the lock-in suite and weapon engineering is a poor design. As I indicated, if they let us overwrite or delete mods then we still need to gather the mats for the new mod, so there is no shortcut or easy route there. However, by not allowing us to experiment by deleting mods, it creates a massive grind wall if you want to experiment or make mistakes, especially on grade 5 suites and weapons.

So, I'm not looking for a 'shortcut', I'm looking for a better design.

I think you misunderstood. Please re-read my post 'I know this thread is about not taking the easy route'.

I agree with you about the design and your post in general, not being able to remove and replace mods makes the grind much greater. Also the ability to pin a blueprint and engineer remotely as per ship engineers would be a huge benefit.

Honestly I think FD learned next to nothing from ship engineers, it took them a couple of years (Beyond) & several iterations of engineering before they found a (somewhat) acceptable balance. It seems they've forgotten most of that...which is why I'm looking for shortcuts.

Unfortunately Inara is not much help...it's still a brilliant resource.

 

[Straker]

I think you misunderstood. Please re-read my post 'I know this thread is about not taking the easy route'.

I agree with you about the design and your post in general, not being able to remove and replace mods makes the grind much greater. Also the ability to pin a blueprint and engineer remotely as per ship engineers would be a huge benefit.

Honestly I think FD learned next to nothing from ship engineers, it took them a couple of years (Beyond) & several iterations of engineering before they found a (somewhat) acceptable balance. It seems they've forgotten most of that...which is why I'm looking for shortcuts.

Unfortunately Inara is not much help...it's still a brilliant resource.

You're right and yes, it took them so long to fix ship engineering that you'd think they would have learned some lessons along the way.

I've been with this game right from pre-release and some of the design decisions have been rather less than successful. Part of the grind with this game is the waiting time for them to fix things. It's mainly why my contribution to the game these days is more in the negative values you see in Steamcharts.

I'm not one to revel in negativity but there comes a point when you have to face the reality that things haven't turned out as good as they could have. What I mean precisely here is not that they didn't develop idea 'X' but that they failed to either fully realise, finish and debug what they included.

 

[Bantha]

Stupid Forums not letting me properly edit my post. I’ll try below.
This is a lot of hassle just to say I agree…

 

[Bantha]

Did FD learn nothing from Engineers in Horizons? They've made the same mistakes again plus a bunch of new ones...I just...nevermind

Exactly!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Sorry to necro this thread but better that than to start another.

I'm having a nightmare with gathering the materials / data for engineering suits and weapon mods. There are some that are really hard to find, Topographical Surveys, Ballistics data, Chemical Formulae, Mineral surveys, chemical inventory, weapon inventory etc...

I've tried taking missions to corresponding Odyssey settlements like chemical plants, munition sites, mining settlements and finding crash sites, irregular markers, but in all that time I've only gathered a couple of each type.

Now I'm seeing that I can just buy these materials / data?

Is this through FCs and the bartender? If so how does that work and how can I tell if an FC has what I'm looking for?

I know this thread is about not taking the easy route but honestly, the way engineers work in ED, the scarcity of certain materials & data, the repetition, counter intuitive game play, relogging...in short the grind, I'll take any shortcut I can get.

You can put a shout out on the sharing is caring thread here and ask if people have any to give you. Doesn't have to be via bartender, you can just trade directly.

A data trader like with have with Horizons engineering would be a boon, or just let the bartender trade data and goods.

But for data, i run missions. All engineering data can be got via mission rewards. Always worth building up your rep with factions at a station then every time you dock check out the NPCs on the concourse. You can double the amount of goods/assets/data they are offering.

For example, i was doing engineering to a bunch of weapons not long ago. In total the upgrades required 80 MIs. That would have taken forever to get through scanning random data ports or taking missions to crashed satellites and relogging, as well as being boring.

So i just checked the NPCs and mission boards, taking missions for MIs. Sometimes its a simple delivery, where you get 1 or 2 MIs. Other times its 5 MIs for a high risk mission. But if you get an NPC offering MIs for a high risk mission and bargain them up, then its 10 MIs.

Without the NPCs it might have taken me about 20 missions to gather all the MIs i needed. (By the way, wasn't just looking for MIs, do stuff in parallel so you offset the vagaries of RNGesus - no MIs on offer? Fine, take a mission for something else i need!). Instead it took me about 10 missions, a couple at 10 MIs per mission, the rest at 5 or an occasional one for 1 or 2, plus the odd MI i picked up from a data port while doing other missions.

When it comes to data, and if you want to actually enjoy the game rather than grinding, missions, missions, missions.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I originally started this thread not because I was looking for an 'easy route' but because I believe the lock-in suite and weapon engineering is a poor design. As I indicated, if they let us overwrite or delete mods then we still need to gather the mats for the new mod, so there is no shortcut or easy route there. However, by not allowing us to experiment by deleting mods, it creates a massive grind wall if you want to experiment or make mistakes, especially on grade 5 suites and weapons.

So, I'm not looking for a 'shortcut', I'm looking for a better design.

I'd also like the ability to overwrite engineering mods.

But since this is FD, they will likely change it in about 5 years time.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Honestly I think FD learned next to nothing from ship engineers,

Of course they learned something. That people will complain but then do it anyway

 

[Urbanski101]

You can put a shout out on the sharing is caring thread here and ask if people have any to give you. Doesn't have to be via bartender, you can just trade directly.

A data trader like with have with Horizons engineering would be a boon, or just let the bartender trade data and goods.

But for data, i run missions. All engineering data can be got via mission rewards. Always worth building up your rep with factions at a station then every time you dock check out the NPCs on the concourse. You can double the amount of goods/assets/data they are offering.

For example, i was doing engineering to a bunch of weapons not long ago. In total the upgrades required 80 MIs. That would have taken forever to get through scanning random data ports or taking missions to crashed satellites and relogging, as well as being boring.

So i just checked the NPCs and mission boards, taking missions for MIs. Sometimes its a simple delivery, where you get 1 or 2 MIs. Other times its 5 MIs for a high risk mission. But if you get an NPC offering MIs for a high risk mission and bargain them up, then its 10 MIs.

Without the NPCs it might have taken me about 20 missions to gather all the MIs i needed. (By the way, wasn't just looking for MIs, do stuff in parallel so you offset the vagaries of RNGesus - no MIs on offer? Fine, take a mission for something else i need!). Instead it took me about 10 missions, a couple at 10 MIs per mission, the rest at 5 or an occasional one for 1 or 2, plus the odd MI i picked up from a data port while doing other missions.

When it comes to data, and if you want to actually enjoy the game rather than grinding, missions, missions, missions.

Thanks for the reply....living up to your name!

I think you are right, missions are the way especially for data...it'll still be a long old slog. I did find an FC selling lots of useful stuff yesterday which probably reduced the grind by many hours.

Out of interest have you noticed any pattern with mission material offers and the type of economy or BGS state? i.e. an extraction economy offer more mineral survey / mining analytics data, a military economy offer more ballistics data and combatant performance or that an economy in boom offers more of X material?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Thanks for the reply....living up to your name!

I think you are right, missions are the way especially for data...it'll still be a long old slog. I did find an FC selling lots of useful stuff yesterday which probably reduced the grind by many hours.

Out of interest have you noticed any pattern with mission material offers and the type of economy or BGS state? i.e. an extraction economy offer more mineral survey / mining analytics data, a military economy offer more ballistics data and combatant performance or that an economy in boom offers more of X material?

I don't have anything conclusive to offer regarding system economies and BGS states, a lot of what I'm thinking may just be observer bias. For example, i suspect military systems might be more likely to offer missions for Weapon Test Data, because i found a lot in a system like that, but maybe it was just coincidence.

You're better asking @Factabulous since he has done a lot of systematic data gathering on the topic.

One thing i strongly suspect though is when generating the mission board you're more likely to get more valuable/rarer materials if you are allied to them.

I think this is because how the reward generation system works. The mission is generated, then a value is assigned to it (with a dab of RNG), which takes into consideration your REP with the issuing faction. Now, imagine you're looking for Data X and its a rare data type. So in the system it has a value of 100,000. You are offered a mission for 50k, so it can't offer you Data X or any similar rare data. But if you are allied, maybe that mission is worth 100,000, so now it can be added to the possible rewards offered.

What this means if you will rarely see a data type you want if its rare and if you don't have good rep with the faction.

The downside to this is if you are allied but are looking for less rare data types, they are then competing in the loot tables with the higher rarity data types which are now spawning more.

I base this off my experience working in a system where i was neutral with everyone, doing lots of missions, and slowly as i increased in reputation with all the factions I stopped getting so many offers for certain data types and started getting more offers for things i was still needing and hadn't seen many missions for.

Maybe this is just RNG coming into play. Maybe its BGS states having an effect. Or maybe its really how it works.

 

[Factabulous]

You're better asking @Factabulous since he has done a lot of systematic data gathering on the topic.

Sadly not so much on missions - I did start trying to look at the NPC mission drops, but quickly realised the journal entries are broken for those missions - and I'm not a fan of doing things manually. Good advice to get allied - bigger rewards = more mats. Also maybe pick places with more factions as they will have more missions, otherwise

 

[Urbanski101]

I don't have anything conclusive to offer regarding system economies and BGS states, a lot of what I'm thinking may just be observer bias. For example, i suspect military systems might be more likely to offer missions for Weapon Test Data, because i found a lot in a system like that, but maybe it was just coincidence.

You're better asking @Factabulous since he has done a lot of systematic data gathering on the topic.

One thing i strongly suspect though is when generating the mission board you're more likely to get more valuable/rarer materials if you are allied to them.

I think this is because how the reward generation system works. The mission is generated, then a value is assigned to it (with a dab of RNG), which takes into consideration your REP with the issuing faction. Now, imagine you're looking for Data X and its a rare data type. So in the system it has a value of 100,000. You are offered a mission for 50k, so it can't offer you Data X or any similar rare data. But if you are allied, maybe that mission is worth 100,000, so now it can be added to the possible rewards offered.

What this means if you will rarely see a data type you want if its rare and if you don't have good rep with the faction.

The downside to this is if you are allied but are looking for less rare data types, they are then competing in the loot tables with the higher rarity data types which are now spawning more.

I base this off my experience working in a system where i was neutral with everyone, doing lots of missions, and slowly as i increased in reputation with all the factions I stopped getting so many offers for certain data types and started getting more offers for things i was still needing and hadn't seen many missions for.

Maybe this is just RNG coming into play. Maybe its BGS states having an effect. Or maybe its really how it works.

Interesting...thanks

In my quest for Odyssey materials I've turned into something of a wanderer, cherry picking systems based on BGS state for re-activation missions or CZs etc...

Data is really the stuff I'm missing now so perhaps I'll move back to the areas where I've built solid rep with local factions, see how that pans out.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Most of my weapons only have the engineering bought with them, suits not a lot more, although the extra carrying capacity is a 'must' for me.
Been playing since EDO launched and will no doubt take a while longer before I bother engineering weapons in particular, getting them 'upgraded' is pretty painless, and very effective. Maybe at some point in the future I'll find engineering that is useful to me, but, in the mean time, I'll just enjoy doing the missions & stuff that interest me, no rush!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Interesting...thanks

In my quest for Odyssey materials I've turned into something of a wanderer, cherry picking systems based on BGS state for re-activation missions or CZs etc...

Data is really the stuff I'm missing now so perhaps I'll move back to the areas where I've built solid rep with local factions, see how that pans out.

Yeah, you totally want good rep for higher rewards. It really cuts down the amount of effort needed.

 

[Gordon Freeman IV]

While I continue to play this game, I can't help but notice what I regard, in my own opinion (ie not pretending everyone thinks this way), is a serious design issue with Odyssey engineering.

On one hand you have a major fault with Odyssey engineering where you are not allowed to remove or re-apply different engineering mods to suits and weapons; and on the other hand you have a system that now allows people to gather Odyssey engineering mats by simply purchasing them. I propose that both of these systems devalue the associated Odyssey engineering game-play because the primary problem is with the inability to alter suit and weapon engineering mods and now the purchasing of Odyssey materials appears to be a quick fix for the issue that does not address the core problem but instead undermines the whole relationship between engineering and materials.

If we look back at the launch of Horizons ship engineering, the major problem with the initial implementation was the randomised outcomes of blueprints, however a lot of people reported initially that the issue was with the difficulty gathering mats (just like they are now doing with Odyssey). While Frontier did implement ways to make it somewhat easier to gather these Horizons mats, they eventually realised that the main issue was in fact the result of randomised outcomes for engineering blueprints, not necessarily the material gathering. They fixed this by making Horizons blueprints deterministic instead of semi-random. I propose that this initial same issue is present within Odyssey engineering but in a slightly different way. What I essentially mean is that it is the 'destination' that is the problem, not the 'journey'.

Just like Horizons initially, I propose that the real problem with Odyssey is not material gathering but instead the process of applying engineering because not being able to replace suit and weapon mods leads to an exponential grind for materials as well as making experimentation difficult on a grade 5 item. Now, instead of fixing this, they have essentially devalued the material gathering game-loop by allowing commanders (and especially new commanders) to simply bypass the whole process and purchase them. Due to money being easily made very quickly, along with the application of INARA, this is concerning.

While no one is forcing me to purchase mats instead of gathering them traditionally, I still point out that instead of correctly analysing the actual problem, Frontier have simply created a bigger one and in the process devalued Odyssey engineering.

I would also add that the ability to purchase pre-upgraded suits and weapons (with potential random mods) does in itself recognise that the issue is the non-removability of engineering mods by trying to apply a 'fix' while not addressing the key problem. Meaning that they try to make it easier for you to bypass the actual problem without addressing the actual problem.

In my opinion the combination of the above two issues undermines Odyssey in a serious way and my response to this is not to engage with Odyssey engineering, other than to upgrade my suits and weapons to Grade 5. I will engage with Odyssey engineering when I have the full ability to experiment with the application of a combination of mods in my grade 5 suits and weapons. This will then allow me to build and mod other Grade 5 suits for different purposes with confidence.

I am completely refusing to even upgrade my stuff. The thing i like about horizons engineering is that you can spend an hour or 2 filling your G5 materials and then trade with the material trader to get what you need. With odyssey you need to find each thing separately and in crazy quantities. Combine that with that every material is just 1 as opposed to 3 in horizons and getting 10 suit schematics turns into much more of a pain than getting 10 core dynanics composites. And on top of that odyssey high value material drops are totally dependent on RNG. There is no Dav's hope, Bug Killer, Jameson crash site or Shard forests for odysey mats. Its just jump to settlement types in certain BGS states and hope something is there. After killing everyone and getting notoriety, you go to look for your stuff and nope, nothing good, you committed crime for no reason. These are my major issues.

 

[Urbanski101]

I am completely refusing to even upgrade my stuff. The thing i like about horizons engineering is that you can spend an hour or 2 filling your G5 materials and then trade with the material trader to get what you need. With odyssey you need to find each thing separately and in crazy quantities. Combine that with that every material is just 1 as opposed to 3 in horizons and getting 10 suit schematics turns into much more of a pain than getting 10 core dynanics composites. And on top of that odyssey high value material drops are totally dependent on RNG. There is no Dav's hope, Bug Killer, Jameson crash site or Shard forests for odysey mats. Its just jump to settlement types in certain BGS states and hope something is there. After killing everyone and getting notoriety, you go to look for your stuff and nope, nothing good, you committed crime for no reason. These are my major issues.

I largely agree with you.

You can do things like relogging at certain mission crash sites to gather data, similar to Jameson CS but it's not how FD want you to play the game.

I'm still astounded that they implemented Odyssey engineering this way and seemingly abandoned the lessons learned from Horizons and Beyond.

There are some good things in there, buying upgraded / modded suits and weapons which cuts down the grind somewhat, buying mats from the FC bartenders that I've just discovered, although it's very hit and miss...mainly miss.

Some key things are missing IMO, pinned blueprints for remote engineering, the ability to remove / replace mods on suits and weapons, full material trading (although I think they saw FC bartenders as filling that role but without anyway to know what is sold at which FC it pretty useless).

 

[babelfisch]

Regarding the inability to remove modifications; there was a time when a number of players (me included), bemoaned the lack of "consequence" in Elite Dangerous. I like the idea that our Cmdrs have to live with the consequences of our choices. Its hardly a huge consequence to live with either - personally, I don't think we should be simultaneous rank in Federation and Empire, but that's a whole other story.

In that case they chose the most stupid consequence they could come up with...

Just imagine ships would work that way. Everytime you want to switch a module you need to buy and engineer a new ship.

 

[Urbanski101]

Most of my weapons only have the engineering bought with them, suits not a lot more, although the extra carrying capacity is a 'must' for me.
Been playing since EDO launched and will no doubt take a while longer before I bother engineering weapons in particular, getting them 'upgraded' is pretty painless, and very effective. Maybe at some point in the future I'll find engineering that is useful to me, but, in the mean time, I'll just enjoy doing the missions & stuff that interest me, no rush!

Well, I've managed to upgrade one suit and one weapon, that is the sum of my upgrading efforts.

I've engineered zero mods but I'd quite like a couple of the suit mods, extra backpack capacity, improved battery etc... I'm not rushing but gathering through casual gameplay isn't going to get me the required materials, it will require some focused effort, which I don't mind as long as it's not too mind numbing.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Well, I've managed to upgrade one suit and one weapon, that is the sum of my upgrading efforts.

I've engineered zero mods but I'd quite like a couple of the suit mods, extra backpack capacity, improved battery etc... I'm not rushing but gathering through casual gameplay isn't going to get me the required materials, it will require some focused effort, which I don't mind as long as it's not too mind numbing.

I've played a lot with 2 or 3 other players - either missions or just 'visitng with guns' (but not anarchy controlled settlements) so we've picked up plenty of mats just doing the things we find fun.

When playing on one of my bubble alts, I just pick missions that look possible and offer mats I'd like. But, I do quite enjoy the 'difference' that EDO offers in gameplay, so just poodle along without any real focus - although Power Regs and Manufacturing Instructions are always welcome.

 

[Frop]

Well, I've managed to upgrade one suit and one weapon, that is the sum of my upgrading efforts.

I've engineered zero mods but I'd quite like a couple of the suit mods, extra backpack capacity, improved battery etc... I'm not rushing but gathering through casual gameplay isn't going to get me the required materials, it will require some focused effort, which I don't mind as long as it's not too mind numbing.

Casual gameplay will get you the required materials, it's just that the game doesn't do a sufficient job in explaining where to get them. Firstly, use a tool like Materials Helper (https://github.com/jixxed/ed-odyssey-materials-helper/releases/tag/1.79) or a site like Inara to set up crafting wishlists so you can focus exclusively on the materials and data you need for an upgrade or modification. Secondly, grab on-foot missions with material rewards which fill those requirements and then just loot the settlements as best you can. Grab all the materials and download all the useful data you can find. Check CMD and PWR buildings for schematics, IND-buildings for gases and the like and EXT-buildings for raw materials.

Just go for one upgrade or modification at a time and with a bit of mission board luck it shouldn't take that long. As ever, the biggest hurdles are the engineer unlocks.