New Engineering system - a factual example
- Thread starter sgurr
- Start date
From what I understand;
Each time I want to give myself a G5 FSD for example, I will have to go from G->G5 on each module?
if that's the case, Hello SC
Yes, you will. Which is a good example. Here is what you'll need to get to do this:
You'll be able to get all of the materials you need for the entire G1-G5 upgrade chain in the same time as it takes to get the G5 materials. As an added bonus, you may even need fewer G5 mats, particularly if you would now try 5 rolls (which was my average when attempting to get a good roll). It's possible you may get the best stats (G5 100%) in 3 rolls. Maybe more. Maybe less. Either way, it's no worse than it is now, because G1 to G4 materials will be collected as you get the G5 materials.
There's more to this than the numbers in the OP. Much more.
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It amuses me the the people it helps the most, the people that do hundreds of rolls in an effort to get maxed-out gear (high-end PvP for instance), are the ones the it will help the least. Old modules are grandfathered in and likely superior, and potential for fair and balanced PvP (now everyone has the same top-end gear!) is thrown out the window by said grandfathered, superior, now-unattainable modules.
Not. as. advertised.
Really?
Because the premise of having to run spread sheets just to upgrade my ship, turns me off.
And the premise of all that effort going into doing a contrived, bloated accounting job just to upgrade my ship, instead of that effort instead going into some more involved and interesting gameplay to actually use my upgraded shup in, turns me off.
Think of the level of contrived nonsense we have just to upgrade our thrusters... Now consider how much gameplay is shallow point and click mechanics (3+ years) on.
It's as if FD have the impression convuled mechanics are gameplay well spent? Wouldn't you rather be actually flying your ship around within some interesting mechanics, rather than spending hours farming and juggling materials just to upgrade a module?
When did upgrading a module become more important than what you can then do with it in the game?
They may have increased the matts needed because they added a proportionally easy way to get the mats. You don't have to grind for single matt in many cases. You can trade for them meaning if it proportionally decreases difficulty it's the same as if you have to get more matts to make it time equivalent potentially.. It may be to keep the system in essence the same and this may be the equivalent of the old system. If you can convert multiple other matts into a single matt you need, you save time because you can grind or mine anything you want to trade for it. So time wise it may be the same.
If you don't have to find a rare matt you save time. So, they probably increased the matts so it's the same amount of effort to get the item. But more of your time may feel like it's relevant to your goal. And therefore might feel easier. Or even be easier or quicker depending on your circumstances.
If you can sit at the system of the upgrader and just mine or farm then why not. You can come back and sell or trade stuff for things you want. Depending on how much you can trade then that is a massive time saver. Or if you can to a lawless sector and kill everything and turn it all in for what you need that might be easier.
IE, they may have done this to increase versatility while gaining matts. You can do a wider array of things to get what you want. So you can choose more what you want to do to fit your desired play style to get the upgrades. That fits the whole concept of play as you wish.
If you don't have to find a rare matt you save time. So, they probably increased the matts so it's the same amount of effort to get the item. But more of your time may feel like it's relevant to your goal. And therefore might feel easier. Or even be easier or quicker depending on your circumstances.
If you can sit at the system of the upgrader and just mine or farm then why not. You can come back and sell or trade stuff for things you want. Depending on how much you can trade then that is a massive time saver. Or if you can to a lawless sector and kill everything and turn it all in for what you need that might be easier.
IE, they may have done this to increase versatility while gaining matts. You can do a wider array of things to get what you want. So you can choose more what you want to do to fit your desired play style to get the upgrades. That fits the whole concept of play as you wish.
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From what I understand;
Each time I want to give myself a G5 FSD for example, I will have to go from G->G5 on each module?
if that's the case, Hello SC
You understand correctly... Now do the same for every module on that ship too!
It's almost like FD realise there's so little to actually do in the game itself, they're trying to side track you and keep you as busy as possible on just upgrading instead...
So yes, get your spreadsheets out, and get read to work away collecting all those mats, and working out what you need for G1, G2, G3, G4 and G5, and going to the Material Traders to swap X of Y to Z... Because all that sounds like jolly well spent and fun game time to me!
ED is not an instant reward game. Play it or leave it at your discreccion.
Is this sarcasm?
With the primary ranges increasing, if you didn't care about a good secondary previously, you should be able to get an equivalent module with only G4, then. That'll take quite a bit of time off for some modules because the G5s are usually much more hassle to get than the G4s (e.g. Exquisite Focus Crystals at G5 require getting lucky and finding a high-ranked mission that offers them one at time - they're virtually unavailable if you don't have an Elite or near-Elite rank already ... whereas Refined Focus Crystals at G4 require blowing up one medium/large combat ship to get generally at least 3, maybe 6 if you're lucky)
(On some blueprints that previously had very large overlaps, you might even get equivalent performance off a G3)
Though there is an advantage to the new process when it comes to special effects.
Old system:
- roll G5 mods for laser 1 until you get a good-looking one
- guess that it's as good as you'll get for now, call in a favour to apply the special
- roll some G3/G4 mods to get back up to max rep
- roll G5 mods for laser 2 until you get a good-looking one
- guess that it's as good as you'll get for now, call in a favour to apply the special
- roll some G3/G4 mods to get back up to max rep
- roll G5 mods for laser 3 until you get a good-looking one
- guess that it's as good as you'll get for now, call in a favour to apply the special
- roll some G3/G4 mods to get back up to max rep
- roll G5 mods for laser 4 until you get a good-looking one (hope you haven't run out of mats trying to get decent rolls on the first three!)
- guess that it's as good as you'll get for now, call in a favour to apply the special
- roll some G3/G4 mods to get back up to max rep
New system:
- roll laser 1 from G1 to G5, pay some extra mats at some point during that for an experimental
- roll laser 2 from G1 to G5, pay some extra mats at some point during that for an experimental
- roll laser 3 from G1 to G5, pay some extra mats at some point during that for an experimental
- roll laser 4 from G1 to G5, pay some extra mats at some point during that for an experimental
It might still require a few more mats - but they'll be the G1/G2 mats (easy) and the experimental payment ones. I'll definitely trade that for being able to reliably get a set of matching weapons for a relatively known material cost.
Conversely, I'm thinking this might be the set of changes that finally gets me to do the 44kLY round trip back to the bubble to engineer up some more ships. It really depends exactly what you're looking for in terms of mods and results, I think, as to whether it's an improvement or not.
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FDev wants players to progress through the grades. Other games, like the NFS series did a similar thing with car tuning. But they had one mayor difference, the player actually had to progress through the game in order to be able to unlock and buy new parts. In ED we potentially have access to all resources from the get go more or less, since money isn't much of an issue anymore. Maybe a tiny of fraction of mats needs us to get Allied with a faction, but that is it. The progress in the new engineering system just seems arbitrary. It can't be considered "progress" if this game forces you to gather another 10 units of scrap, to mod further modules. I think this mechanic does not only feel cheap.
That's fair enough, but forcing contrived, spreadsheet happy, time wasting mechanics on players to pretend non-existent depth is involved, just to upgrade weapons, to me just seems clunky gameplay that actually risks being a chore (it is a chore!), rather than having something players can interact with in a more friendly style, and ultimately have a nicer relationship with.
As I posted earlier, here's my suggestion from year(s) ago to streamline/simplify Engineer right down. And in truth the outcome is exactly what we have with Beyond, just without the unnecessarry tedious micro-managment and tedious contrived Material Brokers - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...axed-not-a-contrived-quot-accounting-job-quot
If that sort of mechanic was in play, I'd probably enjoy my time with The Engineers as it would be more laid back and not be like having to fill in a tax return like it currently (needlessly) is!
NOTE: If they had simply added in something like the above mechanic as an alternative way to pay for Engineering, in parallel with the existing mechanics - ie: You can pay for a Engineering with specific mats (like now) OR from your reputation (yuo've built up by donating any mats their interested in) - I'd be happy with that!
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But the advantage of adding a more realistic system than RNG is that it can slowly be changed to an even more realistic system. Treat any system as a placeholder. If you keep making a better system you can get those realities. It's the correct way to do it if they plan on adding more depth later. Which by the looks of how so much of the game looks like various place holders that is what they may be doing. Plus they don't even have half the content of traditional trade/combat games yet. They may have more specifics planned. And some of those things may be needed for other things. Like a more expansive economy. They might be implementing things step by step in different areas and these changes are needed for the next changes afterwords etc.
That is the impression I'm getting. They are not just implementing this system. But kind of onion layering for the next several changes and planning ahead to some degree as changes in the system permit. These kind of changes sort of indicate a direction they are going for greater addictions as the game is implemented in a more profound way over time as is necessary along the path.
That is the impression I'm getting. They are not just implementing this system. But kind of onion layering for the next several changes and planning ahead to some degree as changes in the system permit. These kind of changes sort of indicate a direction they are going for greater addictions as the game is implemented in a more profound way over time as is necessary along the path.
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Can someone confirm my understanding of the Engineering changes please?
Currently, when I take my shiny new ship off to be Engineered, I'd go through the following steps potentially. Let's assume I'm modifying my Lasers, and it's my first visit to the appropriate Engineer....and that I ample materials of course...
I dock and start rolling basic upgrades on my first weapon. I unlock level 2 and continue the grind - basically wasting materials for rep - until I've unlocked the Engineers max level. I can then proceed to apply successive maximum grade mods to my other lasers. Basically, I've unlocked the best grade by Engineering one weapon and now I can engineer all my remaining lasers at this grade for likely decent results first go (vs. vanilla) if RNG is even remotely kind.
With the new system, once I've unlocked say G5 Efficient for my Beam lasers by grinding a little, can I then apply G5 to all my Beam Lasers, or do I need to apply Grade 1 through 5 on every Beam Laser I have fitted? I guess I'm asking if the forces G1 -G5 progression is per item modified - so every single Laser - or if I can do the G1 - G5 once for a given mod. If I need to go through each grade for every Laser on my ship, it's going to use MASSIVELY more materials for me. Generally, if I get a decent roll I go with it, it's rare I reject one and re-roll once I've unlocked the higher-grade stuff in the current system. I've never been particularly material-rich, nor have I really put much effort into being rich. I just play the game and, whatever mods I apply, it usually makes a significant difference vs. vanilla, then I stick with that for the most part. Only if by luck I've obtained excess materials for the given mod, will I re-roll. However, my usual stance is if it's at leas 50% of the max possible, with no nasty penalties that totally nerf it, I'll stick with it.
Is my understanding correct?
Scoob.
Currently, when I take my shiny new ship off to be Engineered, I'd go through the following steps potentially. Let's assume I'm modifying my Lasers, and it's my first visit to the appropriate Engineer....and that I ample materials of course...
I dock and start rolling basic upgrades on my first weapon. I unlock level 2 and continue the grind - basically wasting materials for rep - until I've unlocked the Engineers max level. I can then proceed to apply successive maximum grade mods to my other lasers. Basically, I've unlocked the best grade by Engineering one weapon and now I can engineer all my remaining lasers at this grade for likely decent results first go (vs. vanilla) if RNG is even remotely kind.
With the new system, once I've unlocked say G5 Efficient for my Beam lasers by grinding a little, can I then apply G5 to all my Beam Lasers, or do I need to apply Grade 1 through 5 on every Beam Laser I have fitted? I guess I'm asking if the forces G1 -G5 progression is per item modified - so every single Laser - or if I can do the G1 - G5 once for a given mod. If I need to go through each grade for every Laser on my ship, it's going to use MASSIVELY more materials for me. Generally, if I get a decent roll I go with it, it's rare I reject one and re-roll once I've unlocked the higher-grade stuff in the current system. I've never been particularly material-rich, nor have I really put much effort into being rich. I just play the game and, whatever mods I apply, it usually makes a significant difference vs. vanilla, then I stick with that for the most part. Only if by luck I've obtained excess materials for the given mod, will I re-roll. However, my usual stance is if it's at leas 50% of the max possible, with no nasty penalties that totally nerf it, I'll stick with it.
Is my understanding correct?
Scoob.
Nope, Sandro himself have said the engineers are supposed to take time.
Put a countdown on grades. Problem solved? If you have a mechanical simple process, bloated by lots of similar sub processes, multiplying them in order to take longer*, is not actual engaging.
*For what reason actually?
The latter. The new system is definitely more clicking, even though the material "grinding" may end up being reduced by the existence of the materials trader and the need to travel to an engineer station to apply a blueprint is also removed.
Absolutely opposed to the idea of any kind of "one upgrade a week" mechanic but that is the only thing that's going to stop people maxing out their upgrades in one go.
Hell, this beta has only just gone live and people have already realised that it's just going to be a case of collecting up some extra high-tier mat's and trading them for all the intermediate mat's you're going to need - assuming you don't already have them already.
The whole "progression" thing is just a flat-out bad idea, I'm afraid.
If people know something is possible, that's what they want.
They don't want quarter of it, then half of it, then three quarters of it.
That being the case, the whole "level-up mod's" thing is a comple waste of the dev's time and effort.
For all the good it'll do, they might as well have implemented a system where you just provide the required mat's (as we already do) and hand over a couple of random G5 mat's as "payment".
I really do not feel convinced about the new system being any better than the old one.
So since I'm currently sitting on a pile of mats enough for 60 DD5 rolls, I think it's time to visit Palin again before it's too late.
The last time it took 27 rolls to get a 140% optimal multiplier module with fairly lucky thermal load and power consumption figures, so who knows...
So since I'm currently sitting on a pile of mats enough for 60 DD5 rolls, I think it's time to visit Palin again before it's too late.
The last time it took 27 rolls to get a 140% optimal multiplier module with fairly lucky thermal load and power consumption figures, so who knows...
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Current time needed for a single G5 roll is fine, I don't agree with the idea of getting a G1, G2... roll before G5.