New Planet Tech is KILLER of Exploration (all terrain is tiling/repeating/not procedural/random)

Ronzer · Jul 5, 2021

I think on some planets there may be similar patterns used, but not identical, because I didnt notice this at all....then I go check it out...

AkenBosch said:
@BlackMaze Kremavi A 3, high detail and ultra Terrain LOD blending, seen from a little distance:

And then....oh hello there:

It got "normal" (the new normal, that is) a second or two after that...so definitely a case of LOD popping far too late.

An honorable mention for Kremavi A 1 and Kremavi A 2 A, which make footballs look less tiled.

Yeah, seems they use a pattern, then rotate it or scale it, some are sunk into the planet more, so you only see the tops. I actually didnt think this was actually happening because I remember years ago someone else accusing SC of the same thing, and I thought they just used the same images, stuck ED on it, and had a chuckle. Anyways, it's not happening, or so apparent, on all planets. My question is if it's possible not to happen on some planets, why is it happening at all on some? Is it planet type thats the reason? Im guessing answers like that are in this thread, so I'll look. I landed on Kremavi A 2...I scanned there, and it looked like no patterns were repeated but I could be wrong, as I didnt go around the whole planet. I noticed lots of invisible rocks down there, though...i.e. SRV crashes into nothing, a lot. Im not so concerned about this, but it seems unnesseccary, so I hope they fix it some time.

hunvagy said:
Technically worse, because the Sith at least made their intentions known, while the Jedi are just trying to keep up the moral high ground, while being just as bad

Well, you know, ..."from a certain point of view"..."A certain point of view?" "Luke, do you like movies about gladiators"?

CMDR Sheehy · Jul 5, 2021

I think rocky planets tend to be the most obvious because of the differences in terrain colouration. It could be happening on ice worlds, but who's gonna know!

Andro · Jul 5, 2021

CMDR Egmont · Jul 6, 2021

anthonycsheehy said:
I wonder if Odyssey is reaching too far.

I mean - going from mathematically created bland/coloured surfaces with predictable rock scatter - to landscape that looks like I could actually be landscape from the bones to the surface. Are they reaching too far and our current devices are just not up to the job. They are culling objects from behind your view now to allow low end devices to cope. You turn around too quickly and they materialise into being once more.

I feels like those early games that try too hard to do fantastic things by stretching the limitations... Photorealism and generation on the fly. You don't mind it in NMS because you know it's just a game, but somehow there is an expectation on ED to be more. It's reaching...

Seems like just the opposite. Tiling a texture over an entire planet? That seems like a retrogressive approach. I hope it’s just a bug.

Erei · Jul 6, 2021

I decided to make a direct comparison for Dav's hope. The settlement was moved to the dark side of the planet, so I had to use coordinates for it.
This is the result, horizon vs odyssey.

I swear, I link that on any game forum for people who don't play, and ask what is the upgrade, I'm fairly certain it will not be the bottom picture.

Helvellyn · Jul 6, 2021

They could try some other pretty effective planet tech:

Crank Larson · Jul 6, 2021

Erei said:
I swear, I link that on any game forum for people who don't play, and ask what is the upgrade, I'm fairly certain it will not be the bottom picture.

While that's true, the bottom picture has no base in it and I think anyone not familiar with it would assume having a base was an upgrade. What does Dav's Hope look like in its new position?

Erei · Jul 6, 2021

Crank Larson said:
While that's true, the bottom picture has no base in it and I think anyone not familiar with it would assume having a base was an upgrade. What does Dav's Hope look like in its new position?

It's in the night side, so dark ?

BlackMaze · Jul 6, 2021

Erei said:
I decided to make a direct comparison for Dav's hope. The settlement was moved to the dark side of the planet, so I had to use coordinates for it.
This is the result, horizon vs odyssey.
View attachment 248035
View attachment 248036
I swear, I link that on any game forum for people who don't play, and ask what is the upgrade, I'm fairly certain it will not be the bottom picture.

What makes it ever more frustrating is the fact that 50% of the Odyssey planets look like that bottom picture

I really hope that Kay and team have some incredible upgrades in store for us!

Crank Larson · Jul 6, 2021

Erei said:
It's in the night side, so dark ?

Night vision.

I don't think there's anything to show in comparing Dav's Hope with not Dav's Hope, personally.

Erei · Jul 6, 2021

Crank Larson said:
Night vision. I don't think there's anything to show in comparing Dav's Hope with not Dav's Hope, personally.

We are speaking terrain not settlements. And night vision doesn't show much (color for one are off).

Since they didn't changed Horizon settlement, it will be the same settlement, and the same terrain that anywhere else on the planet, but in the night.

If you want to, feel free to take a screenshot a few hundreds meter away in Horizon. No setllements then.

Agony_Aunt · Jul 6, 2021

SpaceTrash67 said:
At least the surface raw materials got patched: all the lava spouts, fumaroles and vents are now neatly arranged to make surface prospecting easy again: (IX System - Planet 3):

[VR] Merkir · Jul 7, 2021

Ronzer said:
Yeah, seems they use a pattern, then rotate it or scale it, some are sunk into the planet more, so you only see the tops.

Yes, that's what I'm seeing too.

Anyways, it's not happening, or so apparent, on all planets.My question is if it's possible not to happen on some planets, why is it happening at all on some? Is it planet type thats the reason? Im guessing answers like that are in this thread, so I'll look.

I disagree. Every landable planet has repeating terrain. I've seen it on every landable planet I've been to... over a hundred now since I've been looking.
More importantly, FDev have already said their new tech is used on every landable planet. See https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/planetary-tech-with-dr-kay-ross-recap.565755/, particularly her answer to this question:

"Q: What type of planet is this new tech going to be applied to?"
"Every planet you could land on before, and the new ones opening up, will be using this approach. The old surfaces can't be represented in this new approach and you're going to get a larger variety using this new tech."

I landed on Kremavi A 2...I scanned there, and it looked like no patterns were repeated but I could be wrong, as I didnt go around the whole planet.

I just went to Kremavi A 2 and basically the entire planet is riddled with repeating terrain, in every biome. I'll post the screenshots later, after I circle some of the repeats.

Sysmon · Jul 7, 2021

[VR] Merkir said:
Yes, that's what I'm seeing too.

I disagree. Every landable planet has repeating terrain. I've seen it on every landable planet I've been to... over a hundred now since I've been looking.
More importantly, FDev have already said their new tech is used on every landable planet. See https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/planetary-tech-with-dr-kay-ross-recap.565755/, particularly her answer to this question:

"Q: What type of planet is this new tech going to be applied to?"
"Every planet you could land on before, and the new ones opening up, will be using this approach. The old surfaces can't be represented in this new approach and you're going to get a larger variety using this new tech."

I just went to Kremavi A 2 and basically the entire planet is riddled with repeating terrain, in every biome. I'll post the screenshots later, after I circle some of the repeats.

Again, this matters not at all. Let's focus and have FD focus on issues that actual break anything. When that's sorted and things are running relatively smooth, they can sort out cosmetics.

S

[VR] Merkir · Jul 7, 2021

Sysmon said:
Again, this matters not at all. Let's focus and have FD focus on issues that actual break anything. When that's sorted and things are running relatively smooth, they can sort out cosmetics.

S

It matters not at all to you. To others, it's fundamental to what made ED great, and that's now been lost. FDev have taken away true procedural generation and replaced it with procedurally placed tiles.

Sysmon · Jul 7, 2021

[VR] Merkir said:
It matters not at all to you. To others, it's fundamental to what made ED great, and that's now been lost. FDev have taken away true procedural generation and replaced it with procedurally placed tiles.

If you think about it, no it wasn't what made ED great in the past. There was plenty of repetition and more importantly, plenty of wholly unrealistic landscape in the old tech. Why don't you fly around and look for repetition in that as well? For ease, follow the texture tiling in the landscapes.

This crusade of yours seem to miss something: A control group.

S

fourrunes · Jul 7, 2021

tbh did not expect that from fdev. to take a game that is somewhat of a success and then essentially takes a dump on it...

Sic Mundus · Jul 7, 2021

Sysmon said:
If you think about it, no it wasn't what made ED great in the past. There was plenty of repetition and more importantly, plenty of wholly unrealistic landscape in the old tech. Why don't you fly around and look for repetition in that as well? For ease, follow the texture tiling in the landscapes.

This crusade of yours seem to miss something: A control group.

S

Gotta disagree bud. A major draw of this game over say No Man's Sky and other space games is that you get a sense of realism. It isn't entirely perfect, but for the most part, a procedurally generated planet is supposed to be standalone and unique. It's a bit immersion breaking when you see copy and pasted patterns spread across a planet's surface. Frontier has already stated that the new planet tech isn't working as intended and this weird repetition might fall under this issue along with graphical flaws.

So yes, it does matter. Especially as an explorer. There is already little offered to explorers besides some biological sites to scan. So at the bare minimum, having a working planetary tech is a must.

What makes ED great is definitely subjective to every individual commander, but at its root fundamentals, this is its strongest selling points along with ship physics. This 'crusade' as you so called it is just a means to provide evidence of a flawed technology which Frontier themselves have stated isn't entirely working. So let us put the work in to draw attention to those flaws and maybe they help Frontier to identify issues.

[VR] Merkir · Jul 7, 2021

Sysmon said:
If you think about it, no it wasn't what made ED great in the past.

Perhaps you should tell David Braben then. He seems to have made a decent career out of it. I vaguely remember he may have mentioned procedural generation once or twice in the past.

There was plenty of repetition and more importantly, plenty of wholly unrealistic landscape in the old tech.

There was no repetition at all, until very close to ground level (at which time there has to be some repetition, which everyone accepts). And while you and others perpetuate the "repetition in Horizons" lie, I suspect there will be people like me who correct it.

This "crusade" of mine is a few posts on a thread pointing out that the issue is on every landable planet, when many people still think it's rare.

I'm more curious as to why you have a crusade to shut down talk on the issue? Do tell.

Ronzer · Jul 7, 2021

[VR] Merkir said:
Yes, that's what I'm seeing too.

I disagree. Every landable planet has repeating terrain. I've seen it on every landable planet I've been to... over a hundred now since I've been looking.
More importantly, FDev have already said their new tech is used on every landable planet. See https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/planetary-tech-with-dr-kay-ross-recap.565755/, particularly her answer to this question:

"Q: What type of planet is this new tech going to be applied to?"
"Every planet you could land on before, and the new ones opening up, will be using this approach. The old surfaces can't be represented in this new approach and you're going to get a larger variety using this new tech."

I just went to Kremavi A 2 and basically the entire planet is riddled with repeating terrain, in every biome. I'll post the screenshots later, after I circle some of the repeats.

Oh, is it so dense or maybe due to terrain textures that I didnt notice it? I had every intention of flying to those places, to have proof it wasn't happening...but there it was lol.

[VR] Merkir said:
It matters not at all to you. To others, it's fundamental to what made ED great, and that's now been lost. FDev have taken away true procedural generation and replaced it with procedurally placed tiles.

I wouldnt say it matters a great deal to me, but I recall years ago when someone pointed out the planet tech in SC used a similar tiling system (maybe they hired that person away from CIG?) thinking that FDev would never do the same thing.

Sysmon said:
If you think about it, no it wasn't what made ED great in the past. There was plenty of repetition and more importantly, plenty of wholly unrealistic landscape in the old tech. Why don't you fly around and look for repetition in that as well? For ease, follow the texture tiling in the landscapes.

This crusade of yours seem to miss something: A control group.

S

But yeah, why wouldnt they since there are 450 billion stars, plus 6 planets per star, etc. How soon was it, in EDO, when you realized every social hub is identical other than colours of textures? You move on, but uhm how about 2 social hubs, per starport? Let me blow your mind. How about 3? Woah.

I wonder who makes those decisions, and why there only has to be one...is it a technical limitation? I wish they'd actually explain this. Maybe we dont have a second SRV, because it breaks the game, etc. Just tell us, or else we'll be asking for more till the end of time.

Anyways, I dont mind the repeated thing, and didnt really notice it till seeing these posts, but if you have a thing that generates the heightmaps, etc, why not just have it do that fully, instead of having to repeat/modify 4 images per planet. Hmm ok, lets say 4 images per planet, but instead of only stretching, rotating and scaling them, how about splitting them up, so now 4 images, each divided into 16, now you have 64 small images to rotate, scale and stretch.