New player experience: Tutorial "Harmless" combat is rage-quit difficult.

[Deleted member 182079]

I strongly feel that equipping starter ships with gimbals or encouraging new players to switch to gimbals is doing them a disservice. If someone is finding fixed weapons difficult, all the more reason they should be using them until they aren't difficult any more.

Once one has a handle on fixed weapons, then they should be encouraged to experiment with the extra options gimbals provide.

I think it really depends on what fixed weaponry we're talking about, and what controller the player uses (ship also plays a role).

I tried fixed weapons before, and while the concept is fine, it's just really really unpleasant and frustrating to use on a twitchy joypad set up (no idea to what extent HOTAS's are easier, although I can see M&K being almost point & click once you get used to it - never really tried it and won't be either as I prefer the comfort and added immersion of the pad).

I quite enjoy PA's and am reasonably accurate with them (in PvE at least), but trying to use fixed kinetic weapons on an agile (read - twitchy) ship is just a major PITA - maybe it's my inability to perform tiny inputs without overcompensating but it's just not fun. Rails are ok against big ships, but vs a small target changing direction all the time (Eagle etc.), it's horrible (imo). One of the reasons I got rid of the Enforcer cannons I had previously fitted to my Sideys, and barely ever use Rails even though I like the concept of them.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I'm redoing the training missions/scenarios after reading the progress of this thread. Agree with @Morbad about fixed weapons...
I had to do the 'missions' with fixed weapons several times (possibly because I'm now used to G5'd everything and the beginner ships 'feel' so sluggish) as I would rarely hit the opponent ships. I'm considerably better already and will continue 'playing', it is sure to translate to better accuracy in my everyday gameplay.
No, I'm not 'gud' and won't ever 'git' there, before the usual encouragement is given

 

[Sylow]

Do the basic combat one, have a stab at the advanced one (don’t worry if you can’t do it, word on the street is that most people struggle).

That's quite true. I still do remember when i started out. Doing the combat tutorials, i felt like i would not survive any combat in game. I still then hit the game and did some combat. And what i actually learned in the tutorials was good enough to get me through the first fights. On the other hand, once i had some experience, i tried the tutorials again and all but the challenge scenario felt all too easy and dumbed down.

And that's also where this split comes from. The game has a massive learning curve at the start. Somebody who's still actively playing flight sims and the likes might even come into the game and consider things easy right from the start, while others who haven't played anything like this for many years are on or even beyond their limit at first.

But luckily, while there is so much to learn, even just learning the basics in the tutorial are still enough to get along.

Point in case: one of my friends got the game this black friday. Due to timing issues we haven't managed to play together yet. (And due to him being a huge mechwarrior fan, i don't think i'll see him in ED too often, either. ) So i can't tell how well he's atually flying, but while he also first cursed about ED, he later told me that he now made enough money for his Eagle by collecting bounties at the local nav beacon.

 

[Morbad]

I think it really depends on what fixed weaponry we're talking about, and what controller the player uses (ship also plays a role).

I tried fixed weapons before, and while the concept is fine, it's just really really unpleasant and frustrating to use on a twitchy joypad set up (no idea to what extent HOTAS's are easier, although I can see M&K being almost point & click once you get used to it - never really tried it and won't be either as I prefer the comfort and added immersion of the pad).

I quite enjoy PA's and am reasonably accurate with them (in PvE at least), but trying to use fixed kinetic weapons on an agile (read - twitchy) ship is just a major PITA - maybe it's my inability to perform tiny inputs without overcompensating but it's just not fun. Rails are ok against big ships, but vs a small target changing direction all the time (Eagle etc.), it's horrible (imo). One of the reasons I got rid of the Enforcer cannons I had previously fitted to my Sideys, and barely ever use Rails even though I like the concept of them.

I do see how some gamepads could make fixed weapons difficult. The mini-stick on my throttle is nearly identical hardware and functionality wise to a reference DS4 or XBox analog stick and while I can and do use it to aim the turret in my SRV, it needs a sensitivity slope and is no where near as accurate as my mouse or main stick.

ED could probably use more options when it comes to axis settings in the controls menu.

That said, having to use fixed weapons teaches a lot about how ships move because you are forced to move the whole ship to land shots. There really isn't any organic substitute for this sort of experience/incentive.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I do see how some gamepads could make fixed weapons difficult. The mini-stick on my throttle is nearly identical hardware and functionality wise to a reference DS4 or XBox analog stick and while I can and do use it to aim the turret in my SRV, it needs a sensitivity slope and is no where near as accurate as my mouse or main stick.

Yeah that's the problem really. It's not a very long distance of travel (I use the Xbox One pad and the sticks are actually pretty darn good as far as gamepads go) making also FA Off pretty difficult even though I got the hang of it in principle, but in stressful situations (combat when aiming & docking) I still overcompensate. Flying around with FA Off around surface sites, asteroid belts or stations is in fact tremendous fun.

ED could probably use more options when it comes to axis settings in the controls menu.

Totally this. I'm surprised given the vast array of options that sensitivity/curve settings for the main axises (sp?) are not part of it.

That said, having to use fixed weapons teaches a lot about how ships move because you are forced to move the whole ship to land shots. There really isn't any organic substitute for this sort of experience/incentive.

Agreed.

 

[Ezren]

Just look at the responses on this forum.
This is a new player trying out a tutorial in a newbie zone, and some of the responses are from super experienced PvP players who make fun of this person. Somone who took the time to come to the forum to give feedback on his experience. A total newbie, yet people make fun of this person. Where is this "great community" that people keep talking about?
For the record I remember the tutorial (what there was) back when I started and it was the most grueling thing for a new player to do. Fdev if you're listening you might need to dial it back a bit.

I almost quit back then, but decided to ignore the tutorial and went into the main game, where i found the combat to be way easier than the tutorial...which makes no sense at all.

I wonder how many new players over the years that might have joined the Elite community, quit at those tutorials.

Was really just like one person, and I wouldn't say they're "super experienced with pvp" or anything, they were just super experienced with self-embarrassment.

 

[Ezren]

I disagree. I strongly feel that equipping starter ships with gimbals or encouraging new players to switch to gimbals is doing them a disservice. If someone is finding fixed weapons difficult, all the more reason they should be using them until they aren't difficult any more.

Once one has a handle on fixed weapons, then they should be encouraged to experiment with the extra options gimbals provide.

I feel very much the opposite - that Gimball is more "standard" for use and Fixed are something that should be experimented with for their extra effectiveness. This is especially true for players just learning to control the ship, having more lenient targeting while they're becoming accustomed to flight in the game will ease the learning curve. Gimballs are right in the middle of "ease of use" and "effectiveness" between Fixed and Turreted, but are significantly more newbie-friendly than Fixed.

Gimballed still requires keeping the target within the specific range for fire, but there's more forgiveness, which a new player who is actively having to remember the controls as they go could really use. It's why kids learn to ride bikes with training wheels, because bikes are expensive so they can get the basics before trying the "real thing".

This thread somewhat speaks to that.

 

[Brrokk]

I agree that gimballed for starter ships is pants. Not because they dont "git gud" - seriously, you guys have a problem with that obsession - time on target is a viable characteristic after all - no, it's because ToT doesn't equate to proper kill time. Gimballed stuff is just to weak against the bullet sponge.

Gimbals and turrets are fine as long as you have enough of them to give good total damage. (If the target chaffs, just get close so that the wavering doesn't matter and you still land hits).

Now and then I tell myself, "I will now git gud with fixed weapons", but I always give up after a session because it's a chore and it doesn't fit my SF ideas of what spaceships would actually have.

 

[Ezren]

I agree that gimballed for starter ships is pants. Not because they dont "git gud" - seriously, you guys have a problem with that obsession - time on target is a viable characteristic after all - no, it's because ToT doesn't equate to proper kill time. Gimballed stuff is just to weak against the bullet sponge.

Are you expecting a starter ship to be going up against a bullet sponge for some reason? Especially their first combat experience?

 

[Morbad]

I feel very much the opposite - that Gimball is more "standard" for use and Fixed are something that should be experimented with for their extra effectiveness. This is especially true for players just learning to control the ship, having more lenient targeting while they're becoming accustomed to flight in the game will ease the learning curve. Gimballs are right in the middle of "ease of use" and "effectiveness" between Fixed and Turreted, but are significantly more newbie-friendly than Fixed.

Gimballed still requires keeping the target within the specific range for fire, but there's more forgiveness, which a new player who is actively having to remember the controls as they go could really use.

The forgiveness of gimbals doesn't make it a learning aid; it just delays development of other, more broadly applicable, piloting skills.

Same thing with the docking computer, it's something best saved until well after one has mastered docking.

It's why kids learn to ride bikes with training wheels, because bikes are expensive so they can get the basics before trying the "real thing".

I had training wheels; would have learned faster if I had just been allowed to fall on my ass more.

Are you expecting a starter ship to be going up against a bullet sponge for some reason? Especially their first combat experience?

Used to be in the tutorial!

Spoiler

That fight took me 40 minutes, at the time...70 minutes if you count the nine wings and eighteen or so ships I had to destroy to get to the final wave.

Much of my CMDR's early PvE combat was in a D rated Viper III (first A rated module was distributors...gave me a full four seconds of firing beams before depleting WEP...enough to destroy most CMDR Eagles in one trigger squeeze) doing assassination missions against Anaconda pirate lords. Relatively speaking, they were much more spongy than most NPCs are now.

Spoiler

TTK was on the order of ~10 minutes for most of these targets. Now it's much, much lower, even with the same ships involved (takes maybe sixty to ninety seconds for Cop Killer, my Viper III BGS murder boat, to knock out an Elite security Anaconda)...mostly due to experience (NPC AI has actually improved dramatically, just not enough), but also partially due to NPC equipment not keeping pace.

Gimbals and turrets are fine as long as you have enough of them to give good total damage.

I have medium combat ships that I have gimbals and/or turrets on them. Damage mainstays are still usually fixed however, and the turrets are there to deliver effects and suppress shield regeneration, not primarily for damage themselves.

The stigma against using non-fixed weapons is silly, unless one is still new...in which case they may well be handicapping themselves.

 

[Marklar_]

I disagree. I strongly feel that equipping starter ships with gimbals or encouraging new players to switch to gimbals is doing them a disservice. If someone is finding fixed weapons difficult, all the more reason they should be using them until they aren't difficult any more.

I agree up to a point, but the problem is that if a newbie is flying an Eagle that's pretty difficult with fixed weapons. This is one of the reasons why the Sidey is actually a much better starter ship, Eagles require quite a bit of control to fight well with so it's best to master the Sidey first.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Are you expecting a starter ship to be going up against a bullet sponge for some reason? Especially their first combat experience?

AI spamming HRPs?

 

[Ezren]

AI spamming HRPs?

The Harmless ship you run into during the intro mission chains does not have this problem.

The forgiveness of gimbals doesn't make it a learning aid; it just delays development of other, more broadly applicable, piloting skills.

Same thing with the docking computer, it's something best saved until well after one has mastered docking.

Remember, a new player is learning how to manage their ship in combat. They're already trying to get a handle of a lot of things, increasing the difficulty will not lead to a good experience; again, this thread is an example of that.

It's like trying to learn German and how to fly a helicopter a the same time by hiring a German instructor. He's yelling at you and you're thumbing through a German-English dictionary and nobody has a good time.

If there's ever a time for aim-assistance, one would think the perfect time would be a player who is learning the game. Comfort flying a ship is a pretty big necessity before using Fixed weapons. This is part of the effort to not frontload everything for players to learn, making it more of learning curve and less of a learning cliff.

 

[Morbad]

Remember, a new player is learning how to manage their ship in combat. They're already trying to get a handle of a lot of things, increasing the difficulty will not lead to a good experience; again, this thread is an example of that.

I do remember my new player experience. Indeed, I have quite a large chunk of it documented.

While I felt the new player experience was a bit lacking, it's wasn't because of it's difficulty. It was because it was too easy to bypass and too little was explained.

This thread feels like an example of what happens when someone tries, and is allowed, to skip personal progression in favor of mechanical progression. The OP apparently did not play through the tutorial or training missions before starting his or her CMDR and appears to be lacking basic skills that these would have taught. Statements about the OP's ship tell me that they are perceiving equipment to be a problem when the loadout they started with should be plenty for most any harmless target. Comments about mining being impossible because it's trial and error without detailed surface scanners and prospectors hint at a desire for hand holding that should seem comical to anyone who played the first couple of years of the game.

The OP has artificially increased the initial difficulty by skipping a fair portion of the beginner experience and the game has made this easy for new players to do by not making training scenarios mandatory. The trend of front-loading crutches is only the illusion of reducing difficulty. It's the new player being told what they want to hear, rather than being presented with a useful lesson.

My new player experience wasn't more difficult than the OPs, it was just more educational.

 

[CMDR Jayce MacLeod]

At one time, I was thinking of creating a wing/squadron/minor faction called the "Interstellar Pilots Academy" a dedicated organization of senior and veteran commanders that would take the time to teach our newcomers the finer aspects of piloting the variety of ships and of the game in general, to be understanding and patient with them. Sadly, time is a constraint for me, but perhaps one day I will pursue it.

 

[Bryan K]

If you think this is hard, I wish you could have played the original missions.

The training scenarios? Those weren’t hard in the slightest. Even a gamepad user could ace those.

 

[Ezren]

My new player experience wasn't more difficult than the OPs, it was just more educational.

You're making the assumption that a new player will not learn all the same skills if they don't learn them all at the very beginning of their experience.

 

[Morbad]

You're making the assumption that a new player will not learn all the same skills if they don't learn them all at the very beginning of their experience.

I suspect most new players will learn them eventually, but many won't (look at all the not-so-new-pilots who are convinced that NPCs are cheating when they maneuver), and even if they do, those formative experiences can be a hard rut to overcome if one gets overly used to things that are likely to be less than effective later.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The training scenarios? Those weren’t hard in the slightest. Even a gamepad user could ace those.

I only struggled a bit with the penultimate one, incursion. The last (the Anaconda) you could cheese and felt a bit of a cop out. With KB +M it was a pain sometimes.

 

[Ezren]

I suspect most new players will learn them eventually, but many won't (look at all the not-so-new-pilots who are convinced that NPCs are cheating when they maneuver), and even if they do, those formative experiences can be a hard rut to overcome if one gets overly used to things that are likely to be less than effective later.

If that logic tracked then players would stay in their starting Sidewinder. Also there's the assumption that a player will forever stick with Gimballs, but Fixed weapons are pretty clearly marked with higher damage in Outfitting so there's little chance it won't get attention sooner or later.

You're also kind of loading in the assumption that the player is going to want the most effective option in combat, when combat is just one of the ways the game can be approached.

Mostly for me, it basically breaks down that Fixed weapons are a part of a more advanced combat skillset, and not an introductory one. People need to walk before they can learn to run, need to learn how to swim before they do the high-dive.