New ship: Panther Clipper

[Rat Catcher]

People seem to be really scared here to stretch their legs, all these conservative estimates ugh.

Conservatism is certainly a driver here, I agree.
It is as if having something truly useful for anyone who hauls cargo in quantity (yes, I know, my hauling is generally large-scale theft, but whatever) for whatever purpose is to be frowned upon - a bit like the reaction to engineering mats being simplified, because 'n0obs' could engineeer without grinding - rather than embracing leaving the era of sail power and tea clippers to the age of container ships and Internal Combustion.
Huge is, in the case of hauling, a good thing, not an OP beast that should be buried in an unmarked grave in an unfashionalbe part of the continent, surely?

 

[Stealthie]

I don't see what sense it would make for FDev, after 10 long years, to maintain an original inherent logic of neatly scaling the ships to each other or even a petty balancing. If FDev is really working on breathing life into the game, then from my point of view they have no other choice but to throw out a few things that deliberately break with the previous philosophy or would have been considered overpowered or unbalanced 5 years ago. A 10 year old game can certainly take a breath of fresh air with a few breaks with familiar content or upheavals.

What's the problem with too much cargo space? Will we get the phenomenon of moving-to-much-cargo-at-once-greefing? Like: "fDEv fiX YoUr gAMe!! A destructive player group bought the Coriolis empty with 3 Panthers and destroyed my PP because a famine instantly broke out in the system."

Just a reminder: in the ancient world of 2025, container ship giants pose a serious problem: Harbor basins have to be constantly dredged, the Suez and Panama Canals have long since reached their limits and the ship insurance industry lives in panic fear of hearing the Lutine bell (since the “No Fu** Ever Given” event at the very latest).

I would have no problem at all with a monstrous cargo mover, where the balancing of it would primarily consist of causing a lot of new, previously unknown trouble for the shipowner instead of fitting seamlessly into the existing lineup of ships.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Panther should be little more than a step up from the T9.
What I'm saying is that the introduction of the Panther, with, say, 2,500t of cargo capacity, would be a good opportunity for FDev to increase the capacity of alternative ships too.

They could explain it as "With Zorgon introducing the Panther, Lakon has taken steps to refit the T7, T9 and T10 with extra space for cargo racks in a desperate bid to retain a slice of the haulage ship market" etc.

Thing is (for me, at least), I'm going to need a good reason to haul cargo in a T9 (or even a T10) instead of a Cutter and right now neither ship provides that reason.
I'm not particularly fussed about exact numbers but I'd say the T9 needs to be able to haul at least 50% more than the Cutter to make it wqrth considering and the Panther should probably haul at least double what an uprated T9 could haul.

Basically, if the Panther shows up with a (shielded) cargo capacity of less than 2,000t, they can keep it.

 

[Elyssaen]

Thing is (for me, at least), I'm going to need a good reason to haul cargo in a T9 (or even a T10) instead of a Cutter and right now neither ship provides that reason.

I know what you mean, though I'd come to terms with the idea that the Type-X freighters are essentially stepping stones. The same way the Adder isn't intended to be an endgame option for any playstyle, in the one-dimensional playstyle that is trading (sorry!), the Type-X ships are just supposed to be cheap and cheerful steps along the way, where their low cost is exactly the point. More than anything else, I'd lean into that at this point and give them a "Lakon Gold Insurance Package", reducing their rebuy cost or even insuring part of any cargo they carry.

But buffing the Type-Xs (other than the new 8, which is perfectly good) is a perfectly reasonably road to take too. Personally though, I think if a Type-9 has 90% of its power budget in its cargo capacity and a Cutter (which can do a lot other things) just 60%, then... relative balance aside, I actually kind of like that the endgame trading ship options aren't so focused on cargo capacity above anything else. I like that in Elite lore, when you make it to the Panther-Clipper you aren't just hauling more, you're also so tough that most pirates can't scratch you. And that at the end of the progression of trading you fly a ship to be proud of.

Basically, if the Panther shows up with a (shielded) cargo capacity of less than 2,000t, they can keep it.

Out of curiosity, if they did do this, would you want the profit/hour of trading to increase by ~150%? Would the other professions remaim at the same profit/hour? Would it be good or bad for the game for one career (the mechanically simplest one) out-competed other professions so much?

 

[Stealthie]

Out of curiosity, if they did do this, would you want the profit/hour of trading to increase by ~150%? Would the other professions remaim at the same profit/hour? Would it be good or bad for the game for one career (the mechanically simplest one) out-competed other professions so much?

No idea what might be "best" for the game as a whole.
Personally, I'm not big on trading, as a profession.
I've tried it and only ever had moderate success.
I can spend a month figuring stuff out and hauling huge quantities of stuff and then a CG will come along and I can make the same amount of credits BHing for a half-dozen hours.

What I'd need a big cargo ship for would be hauling the thousands of tonnes of LTDs, Painite and Platinum that I've mined, dumped at my FC and then never bothered to ship to a market, as well as hauling Tritium for FC fuel.
If I could do that more efficiently, I might take more of an interest in locating markets and hauling for trade.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Out of curiosity, if they did do this, would you want the profit/hour of trading to increase by ~150%? Would the other professions remaim at the same profit/hour? Would it be good or bad for the game for one career (the mechanically simplest one) out-competed other professions so much?

Would it really matter in the grand scheme of things?
Go out and scan some salad for a couple of days, earn a billion or so for the lowest risk activity in the game...
Team up with 3 friends and share wing missions to play in CZ, earn 200+ mill in around an hour
Spend a week out surveying new systems, make perhaps a couple of 100 million, also doing virtually zero risk activities.

As for out-competed, is there actually any competition between trades? Don't most folk just do whatever they please at the time, without much regard for how many credits it may earn?

Of course, the optional activities, PP2 & BGS Farming may be affected by having hauling improved, but, obviously, folk will just get the PC II as it will be the META, just like every other aspect of allegedly competitive gaming.

 

[Darrack]

I can spend a month figuring stuff out and hauling huge quantities of stuff and then a CG will come along and I can make the same amount of credits BHing for a half-dozen hours.

This may sound a bit daft, i don't do trading for credits, i enjoy station hopping, goto one place, buy stuff, find another station to sell it at and repeat.
I just enjoy doing it, yes i can make way more mining or when a CG pops along but i just find it fun and relaxing, plus it builds up a network of stations which has helped greatly for colonisation as third party sites don't pick up many places with stuff like CMMs.

O7

 

[Pville_Piper]

Conservatism is certainly a driver here, I agree.

For me it's not conservatism, but merely trying to keep my hopes from getting crushed...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Panther should be little more than a step up from the T9.
What I'm saying is that the introduction of the Panther, with, say, 2,500t of cargo capacity, would be a good opportunity for FDev to increase the capacity of alternative ships too.

They could explain it as "With Zorgon introducing the Panther, Lakon has taken steps to refit the T7, T9 and T10 with extra space for cargo racks in a desperate bid to retain a slice of the haulage ship market" etc.

Thing is (for me, at least), I'm going to need a good reason to haul cargo in a T9 (or even a T10) instead of a Cutter and right now neither ship provides that reason.
I'm not particularly fussed about exact numbers but I'd say the T9 needs to be able to haul at least 50% more than the Cutter to make it wqrth considering and the Panther should probably haul at least double what an uprated T9 could haul.

Basically, if the Panther shows up with a (shielded) cargo capacity of less than 2,000t, they can keep it.

I think, balance wise, the T-9 should be boosted to a higher capacity the than the Cutter. The cutter has more speed and firepower thee T-9 should have more carrying capacity.

 

[Koma Pahu]

I think, balance wise, the T-9 should be boosted to a higher capacity the than the Cutter. The cutter has more speed and firepower thee T-9 should have more carrying capacity.

I kind of agree, but the Cutter is locked behind a rank grind.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I kind of agree, but the Cutter is locked behind a rank grind.

If I was Big Daddy Brabus and it was In The Beginning[TM] the difference would be repair costs, running costs and ship cost for the T-9 being far, far lower since its a truck (compared to the very high end posh Cutter).

But since credits, repairs, fuel and nearly every metric has been toned down or stripped away the only thing FD could do is up the T-9 again.

 

[Stealthie]

This may sound a bit daft, i don't do trading for credits, i enjoy station hopping, goto one place, buy stuff, find another station to sell it at and repeat.
I just enjoy doing it, yes i can make way more mining or when a CG pops along but i just find it fun and relaxing, plus it builds up a network of stations which has helped greatly for colonisation as third party sites don't pick up many places with stuff like CMMs.

O7

Oh yeah, I get that.

I was answering a question about if/how the BGS might need to be changed due to the arrival of the Panther.
Point is, I can't really answer that because I dunno what effect a ship with gigantic cargo capacity might have on trading.
The only "trading" I do is selling off the stuff I've collected while doing other things.

 

[Rat Catcher]

The only "trading" I do is selling off the stuff I've collected while doing other things.

My normal trucking is only to put expensive commodities in protective custody on my FC to protect valuable deliveries from pirates.
Although I do have a system being developed as a learning exercise, so have shuffled a lot of legal tonnage, no matter how distasteful the action.

 

[Koma Pahu]

Although I do have a system being developed as a learning exercise, so have shuffled a lot of legal tonnage, no matter how distasteful the action.

I thought better of you than that Ratty. SMH.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I thought better of you than that Ratty. SMH.

I know, I feel so ashamed...

 

[Brrokk]

a

I kind of agree, but the Cutter is locked behind a rank grind.

The T9 needs something unique going for it, otherwise no T9 will ever leave space dock again once the Panther is released.

 

[Rubbernuke]

a

The T9 needs something unique going for it, otherwise no T9 will ever leave space dock again once the Panther is released.

The catch 22 is, the only metric you can add to the T-9 is more cargo space....which if done then lessens the PCMk2s advantage.

This is a story of all legacy ships though. Asp Scout, small ships in general, Fed FAS, FGS and FDS, T-7.....older ships are left on the vine.

 

[SergMx]

a

The T9 needs something unique going for it, otherwise no T9 will ever leave space dock again once the Panther is released.

They're locked in by pulling ARXs.

 

[SergMx]

The catch 22 is, the only metric you can add to the T-9 is more cargo space....which if done then lessens the PCMk2s advantage.

This is a story of all legacy ships though. Asp Scout, small ships in general, Fed FAS, FGS and FDS, T-7.....older ships are left on the vine.

Are too many ships being scrapped?

 

[Doctor Dread]

The catch 22 is, the only metric you can add to the T-9 is more cargo space....which if done then lessens the PCMk2s advantage.

Not if you give 1K to T-9, and 2K to PC2

 

[Rat Catcher]

This is a story of all legacy ships though. Asp Scout, small ships in general, Fed FAS, FGS and FDS, T-7.....older ships are left on the vine.

I have all of the new, initially for Arghs, ships in my main fleet. (they aren't half-bad)
In light of their SCO performance and exciting design philosophy, I have remaindered a chunk of my existing fleet, I even got rid of 2 Couriers (that hurt!), only leaving me 4 to play around with.

Brutal, I know, but those Model T's have to make way to sleek, modern, killing machines, after all.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Are too many ships being scrapped?

Too many ships that are obsolete, certainly.

Not if you give 1K to T-9, and 2K to PC2

Yes, and no. I'd only agree to 2K for the PCMk2 if it has some downsides because thats a huge amount of capacity.