No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[Rafe Zetter]

You can report them to the authorities, starting with Kickstarter.

Did that:

- Asked KS if dropping what many consider a fundamental part of the KS outline would be considered a breach of their terms if it had occurred during the KS funding stage?

- Also asked if a project starting development (solely) because of successful KS funding is then free to change whatever parameters they wish after the KS funding program closes; in other words is there ANY OBLIGATION to adhere to the wording of the KS text after the fact?

Awaiting response from KS.

 

[DarkWalker]

I do recall discussions about potentially getting 3 character slots, and getting answered by the devs that you can share them with family members because they are separate entities (no shared rep, finances...).

I'm not too bothered either way. Elite really is very personal by it's very nature. My
CMDR is my presense in the online galaxy.

Well, you just showed a prime example of the devs not caring to enforce part of their EULA

It's quite common. Those documents are drafted to close as many loopholes as possible, and often end closing uses that the devs (or whoever owns the copyright) don't mind. Or that people don't think is wrong, in which case trying to enforce that specific part of the EULA is not worthy the headache and PR hit.

 

[Polared]

gender.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I still love you man.

you got me! damned iphones, isn't apple just always supposed to work? : )

 

[Gaijin]

Did that:

- Asked KS if dropping what many consider a fundamental part of the KS outline would be considered a breach of their terms if it had occurred during the KS funding stage?

Just out of curiosity I read the front page of kickstarter, and haven't seen any mention of off-line play. Sooo, what was so fundamental about off-line play that its not mentioned on the kickstarter page?

Please refer to the "Game" section of the Kickstarter. It makes no mention of off-line play.

From the description:

"In the game, you will of course begin with a spacecraft and a small sum of Credits. You will be able to trade, pirate, bounty-hunt, explore, and salvage your way to wealth and fame, building on those key elements of the previous games, and with sumptuous graphics only now possible with the performance of today’s machines. Only this time some of the ships out there will be other players like yourself – other members of a secret ‘Elite’ group of space-farers…"

 

[Polared]

When Braben and FD promised Offline in the kickstarter, it may have increased the backer uptake on the game, but it was the biggest mistake they could've made. QUOTE]

no argument from me there la! apart from the use of the word "may", I have no data so I couldn't possible say, hindsight's great though, isn't it?

 

[Steve O B Have]

Did that:

- Asked KS if dropping what many consider a fundamental part of the KS outline would be considered a breach of their terms if it had occurred during the KS funding stage?

- Also asked if a project starting development (solely) because of successful KS funding is then free to change whatever parameters they wish after the KS funding program closes; in other words is there ANY OBLIGATION to adhere to the wording of the KS text after the fact?

Awaiting response from KS.

Not posting as a mod here.

What's the endgame to this action? Is there some sort of satisfaction to be garnered from attempting to cause the game to fail because of the absence of a certain feature? Personally I think it smacks of "If I can't have the game I want then no-one can have it". If that sits well with you... well I know it wouldn't with me.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

Well, you just showed a prime example of the devs not caring to enforce part of their EULA

It's quite common. Those documents are drafted to close as many loopholes as possible, and often end closing uses that the devs (or whoever owns the copyright) don't mind. Or that people don't think is wrong, in which case trying to enforce that specific part of the EULA is not worthy the headache and PR hit.

It's more the fact that the EULA's are designed to be -absolutely- watertight, but then the devs don't generally enforce them.

Until they do.

It gives them the legal cover to enforce bans and suspensions, because if they need to, then they simply point to the relevant bit of the EULA and say "You signed it, that's your problem."

 

[Ventura]

DRM-Free <does not equal> server-only login and play. Actually, it's not even close - to the point that most would probably consider the two direct opposites to one another.

 

[Robert Graham]

Michael and David both here,

Look I know you guys as I've said vocally when I did my stream didn't do this because your vindictive, but David asked outright why some people are so addiment about having offline mode.. Alright can I ask you to please come visit Australia and I don't just mean the Capital Cities either.. No I want you to drive with your mobile phone and Laptop in your lap from Sydney to Broken Hill, Or from Perth out to The Mines.. or from Darwin down to Alice Springs, or from Melbourne along the calder highway to Mildura then across to Adelaide.. While your doing that I want you to stay connected to your server... while visiting houses along the way....

Guess what, you won't at all.. As I've said 5 minutes north of this town you loose mobile phone reception for about 10 km's.. and i know of 5 houses with computers within that area..

I know of people who live on farms who come into town to fiends places, to check email, download updates etc etc then go home and put those updates onto computers...

And I know Australia is not the only country like this.. Because I know people in the United States of America in simular situations.

It is fine for David to say 'well I played it on a train' yeah a train in England.. where most mobile phone towers are gonna cover a massive region and you could possibly cover the entire thing with a 4G network except for Scotland with about 6 towers!

So I can very very very much understand why people want the offline mode even if it's majorly cut down.. You had the basic game there in Alpha 4 and Premium Beta.. a lot of offline players would be happy with something as simple as the new graphics engine with Frontier First Encounters Trade and Mission system..

I don't expect this to make any difference to you, but it doesn't change the fact that even with mobile tethering you don't always have the internet.

 

[Adept]

Taken from ED's Kickstarter page:

Pledge £60 or more : 374 backers : Physical DRM-free boxed edition of "Elite: Dangerous".

Pledge £90 or more : 1339 backers : Physical DRM-free collector's premium boxed edition of "Elite: Dangerous".

Not explicitly promised? Care to revise your statement? If having to log in to their server and play online doesn't constitute DRM, I'll be damned if I know what does.



See above with regards to your claim that offline was a "new primary task".

Try quoting the text for those reward tiers in full.

It doesn't promise anything different on the discs than what you can download from the website. Those physical boxes are memorabilia, not a separate "DRM-free" product.

 

[Robert Graham]

Just out of curiosity I read the front page of kickstarter, and haven't seen any mention of off-line play. Sooo, what was so fundamental about off-line play that its not mentioned on the kickstarter page?

Please refer to the "Game" section of the Kickstarter. It makes no mention of off-line play.

From the description:

"In the game, you will of course begin with a spacecraft and a small sum of Credits. You will be able to trade, pirate, bounty-hunt, explore, and salvage your way to wealth and fame, building on those key elements of the previous games, and with sumptuous graphics only now possible with the performance of today’s machines. Only this time some of the ships out there will be other players like yourself – other members of a secret ‘Elite’ group of space-farers…"

not to make you have to go re-read the kickstarter page or anything but scroll down towards the bottom of it under How will single player work, Will I need to be connected to a server to play?

Spoiler

The galaxy for Elite: Dangerous is a shared universe maintained by a central server. All of the meta data for the galaxy is shared between players. This includes the galaxy itself as well as transient information like economies. The aim here is that a player's actions will influence the development of the galaxy, without necessarily having to play multiplayer.

The other important aspect for us is that we can seed the galaxy with events, often these events will be triggered by player actions. With a living breathing galaxy players can discover new and interesting things long after they have started playing.

Update! The above is the intended single player experience. However it will be possible to have a single player game without connecting to the galaxy server. You won't get the features of the evolving galaxy (although we will investigate minimising those differences) and you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate).

Last updated: Tue, Dec 11 2012 8:56 PM AEDT

It's in the spoiler.. but that is neither here nor now.. in the end frontier can always point to this same segment.. under what are the risks..

Spoiler

Stating the obvious, all projects, whether building a bridge, making a film, studying for an exam or whatever, carry risk. Projects can run out of time or money, people can leave, assumptions that were made at the start may prove to be mistaken, or the results may simply not be as good as expected. Games development is no different.

 

[vonFelty]

DRM-Free <does not equal> server-only login and play. Actually, it's not even close - to the point that most would probably consider the two direct opposites to one another.

Log-in authentication is DRM. Steam is DRM. All MMO's have DRM.

DRM free means no authentication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management#Persistent_online_authentication

 

[Polared]

Not posting as a mod here.

What's the endgame to this action? Is there some sort of satisfaction to be garnered from attempting to cause the game to fail because of the absence of a certain feature? Personally I think it smacks of "If I can't have the game I want then no-one can have it". If that sits well with you... well I know it wouldn't with me.

I understand you're saying your not posting as a mod, but whoa! you still are a mod!!!!!
I don't agree/condone the action stated in the post, nor do I wish for or desire the implication of the possible consequences of your interpretation, not at all! but you're risking inflaming it all by instead of just pointing out, that this thread is about the issue of single player offline! not about refunds! not about KS process of redress! not about litigation! and certainly most certainly not about wishing death wish on EDonline or FDEV, if I've missread the whole point of this thread then excuse me, I must have been sadly mistake!

self righteous mode off : )

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Just out of curiosity I read the front page of kickstarter, and haven't seen any mention of off-line play. Sooo, what was so fundamental about off-line play that its not mentioned on the kickstarter page?

Please refer to the "Game" section of the Kickstarter. It makes no mention of off-line play.

From the description:

"In the game, you will of course begin with a spacecraft and a small sum of Credits. You will be able to trade, pirate, bounty-hunt, explore, and salvage your way to wealth and fame, building on those key elements of the previous games, and with sumptuous graphics only now possible with the performance of today’s machines. Only this time some of the ships out there will be other players like yourself – other members of a secret ‘Elite’ group of space-farers…"

- Sorry buddy, but you missed it. As near as I can tell the information on the KS E D page is different now than when it was still "live".

Incidentally, that description you quoted is hardly "the sum total of what E D is going to deliver" and I would not recommend you use it as a basis for your counterpoint to mine; it is so shallow in it's content of what is coming as to barely be more than the TL;DR.

I would refer you to the many many many posts by KS backers other than I, that state that offline play was a promised feature; but seeing as there have been literally hundreds, possibly even thousands (with 1 locked thread with a post count of 10,000 on that very subject) of them just in the last few days and you seem to have missed all those too, I think I'd be wasting my time doing a lot of searching / cutting and pasting of quotes to satisfy the requirement you requested.

If you are so inclined to see that offline only mode was indeed promised in the original KS text - may I redirect you to do some research of your own on these very forums for proof. I know it's there, even if you have not yet witnessed it.

1 - 0.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

So I have this personal rule.

The more of a problem I have with something - the more I find it disagreeable, dangerous or in need of correction - the more I try to start off saying something positive about it. In extreme cases, I make sure to weigh every negative statement with a strong, heartfelt positive. That discipline helps you see things from the other guy's perspective, which in turn makes it easier for said guy to accept criticism as a problem you can resolve together to everyone's benefit. I mention this for two reasons, and the first reason is because it's a very effective technique everyone in this thread should try.

...​

To the awesome forumites that have stuck to the topic in spite of everything: you people have my utmost respect. You've managed to conduct an intelligent debate throughout all this craziness, and I've genuinely learnt things from you. I'm proud to consider myself a member of a community that can contemplate such painful events in such a grown-up way. I know that reasonable members on all sides of the debate have felt overlooked and underloved this past week or so, but please know that some of us have been lurking and soaking up all that good stuff.

To the remainder: spending a week expressing how you feel is understandable in the situation, especially given the crash course in public relations we've all just given Frontier. But continuing to ignore requests to address the topic is starting to resemble moderator contestment, which damages the community in a way that has nothing to do with the commercial interests of the company running the servers. This cannot be allowed to continue.

...​

When this thread reopens, I want everyone to say something positive about a position you find disagreeable, dangerous or in need of correction. Find someone you've tustled with and tell them how you respect the pain they've suffered; argue the logic of a position you've railed against; or just tell us about another forumite that's changed your mind on a major issue. I've said enough positive things now to last me a good long while, and will look unfavourably on any reluctance to help heal our community.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

Thread reopened. We're all on this rollercoaster together, and we've all gone through a rough patch this week. This thread will be a nice place to hang out from now on, so I'll open the floor up for someone to say something nice about someone they disagree with...

 

[wizzpig]

David Cameron is a wonderful chap with impeccable dress sense.
Seriously though... I love you guys. All of you

 

[phila_delphia]

Thread reopened. We're all on this rollercoaster together, and we've all gone through a rough patch this week. This thread will be a nice place to hang out from now on, so I'll open the floor up for someone to say something nice about someone they disagree with...

Hi there! I understand and admire your effort, as I do not intentionally like to insult People (an hopefuly to this point have not done so).

Unfortunately this is about all I can say in termes of pure positvie thinking, as to me there is no option to an offline mode in this game.
And there sure is no option to cancle one/two features that seem fundamental to me: - there will be an offline mode/- there will be no DRM.
This combined with the simple fact, that anyone who allready started the game once will not get the refund (he in my oppinion) deserves, is all about it takes for me to feel unhappy.
Best regards
phila
P.S.: Why can`t I set paragraphs in this Forums?!

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

David Cameron is a wonderful chap with impeccable dress sense.
Seriously though... I love you guys. All of you

David Cameron.. is.. a.. buh... wat. *BRAINEXPLODE*

You're cleaning that up. Y'hear?

 

[mbpoblet]

What they in effect promised was to try.

I admit English is not my first (nor second) language, but I completely fail to see how "there will also be an offline single player mode" can be interpreted to have the same meaning as "we will also attempt to implement an offline single player mode, but we can't promise anything".

If you'd be so kind as to illuminate me on this matter, so that I can increase my admittedly poor comprehension of the beautiful English language, I'd really appreciate it.

Thank you in advance.