No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[mbpoblet]

In a purely single user game, there would really be no value in having a 400 billion star system universe - even playing continuously 24x7, never visiting any system twice, you'd need multiple lifetimes to visit every system in the galaxy, never mind actually taking the time to get any enjoyable gameplay in while doing it.

That also applies to the current game. In the best case stars outnumber players one hundred thousand to one.

FD have also talked about giving away the secrets of the galaxy

Which doesn't make any sense given that the galaxy is procedurally generated, and simply changing the seed would give us an infinite number of variations.

gameplay not matching the richness of the online experience etc, and the effort required to develop an offline universe that would match expectations

Which seems to indicate a seriously flawed design.

If even that is too much effort, how about documenting & publishing the solo-online subset of the client-server API and incorporating an option that permits alternative connection to a 'localhost' server for solo play into the client? That server API will probably be documented at some point by a geek with a network sniffer & the patience to reverse engineer it, so get your retaliation in first... how would this help? Well, if the community can learn what the client sends to and expects from the server in solo online play, the community can develop its own local VM based server... can you imagine what the OOlite modding community might build given the opportunity to build an ED client compatible local VM based server for ED?

This would be awesome (and if the game ends up having a large enough community the servers are going to be reverse engineered any way), third party servers would be great for the longevity of the game (independently of Frontier's), but they'd probably dismiss it claiming fears of "hacking" or other excuses (Braben already expressed worries about the game "branching" in an answer about modding).

 

[Ventura]

So many playing cry wolf over the fact that Frontier Developments had the gumption and forsight to recognize they couldn't do offline mode, and instead pooled their resources into completing the game for us all.

Very sad.

What's sad is that they probably had the "gumption and foresight" to recognise this half a year ago, but decided against letting everyone know until approximately a month before the release, where they figured they'd slip it in a newsletter and hope nobody noticed.

In any case, to suggest that they couldn't do it is to demonstrate a shocking level of ignorance in the area of software development, because you better believe they bloody well could. No, rather, they just didn't want it, or at least, not anywhere nearly as badly as those that were being reassured that it would have it.

 

[AndyWeller]

How is one thread among the myriads in the forums interfering in any way with that? :S

Because all I see on the forum at the mo is people moaning about something that to be fair is not that big an issue for the majority of us.

I suspect that most who are complaining are just bored with the game as they have been playing it for months and now see a slim opportunity to steal their money back through a refund and others are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Then there are the genuine minority lost in the middle of it all.

from what I can see of the situation there is not one thing in it that will stop ME playing the game where ever I like. I can play at home on multiplayer or single player or I can play the single player on the move either with Wi-Fi or the use of my 3G / 4G dongle. It is highly unlikely that I will be playing this on the move anyway as i'll either be working or on holiday and I'll be amazed if I put the game before supping a cold beer around the pool while in the sun.

 

[Zuikaku]

So many playing cry wolf over the fact that Frontier Developments had the gumption and forsight to recognize they couldn't do offline mode, and instead pooled their resources into completing the game for us all.

Very sad.

Shok.

We'll at least they should tell us earlier about that.

And maybe start another kickstarter for developing offline version. In a way that everyone who bought or supported ED earlier with intention to play it mostly offline woul'd be allowed to redirect it's funds into offline kickstarter campaign. If that campaign fails, everyone gets refunds.

That woul'd be fair thing to do.

And dancing on the graves of folks who paid for the game and then didn't got what they have been told, but their money helped you to got what you wanted isn't right thing to do also.

 

[Turjan]

Can I inject an off the wall left field thought?

...how about harnessing a digital asset they already have in the bank? What about using the FE2 galaxy, procedurally converted like for like, for the offline game?

An intriguing notion indeed

However, I think the fundamental problem about this whole online/offline debacle lies with FD's proprietary COBRA game engine and its in-built reliance on network coding. The problems in surgically excising from it just the elements required to use for the basis of a full offline game are a major part of the the hassle - the worries about revealing the 'secrets' of the Stellar Forge E-D galaxy are but one piece of the puzzle.

I'm sure, given the storm this whole issue has whipped up, that FD will indeed be looking at ways to create a full offline mode in the future. But I'm equally sure that it will be a back burner project - if it wasn't high enough priority for them to sort before launch, it's going to be even less of a priority for them after launch. Using old assets may well help them shave a bit of time and effort off that which is required...but I still don't expect to see anything remotely singleplayer-related from them for many, many months.

 

[Wellington]

Refunds...........

I have noticed many people saying that we have no rights to a refund due to the fact we "bought" Beta access.........Well, can these people PLEASE explain WHY you can pre-order ED for £35 and ADD Beta access for an extra £15? According to UK consumer law, a product HAS to be as described at time of sale AND fit for purpose (which it is not)! I urge anyone in the EU/UK who wants a refund to contact your local consumer rights organization (trading standards in UK). I have taken advice from them and they told me what to do AND said they would gladly take my case if FD played rough and tried to wriggle out of a refund. FD does not have a proverbial leg to stand on IF customers use their heads AND rights

 

[Crazy Earl]

I've waited for this game since 93, and I live in a very small town with really, really crappy net service, and during tourist season (easter, september, late dec - early feb) I can't get on the net to even check my emails until after 11pm. Not ideal as I get up for work at 4am.

I was too late to the party to back the things that I wanted so I thought I'd sit back and see how things went and keep a couple of K aside for the new rig and headset to run things.

Oh well, back to ww1 sims and waiting for the cables to reach here.

 

[Tiggs]

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that there is still a lot of manual tweaking going on behind the scenes in order to make the Universe work smoothly. I suspect that various events - such as the recent civil war - are going to be injected on the fly, rather than programmed in advance. (I hope that there's going to be a Thargoid invasion at some point piloted by the devs that would be blue murder to code.)

I suspect that shipping a team of developers with every copy would be somewhat impractical.

Gutted for those who are unable to play online. You have all my feels. I would have loved an offline-only version, too.

The refund thing is interesting. I'm saddened that Frontier won't at least refund the cost of the retail game, since it's yet to launch. Or fully refunded anyone with less than x hours of server time clocked (where x is > 0). Say a day or so. I'm guessing they looked at the database, did some calculations over what they could and couldn't afford to refund and this is what they came out at.

Double-gutted for those who are unable to play online and can't get a refund. Hoping Frontier will set up a mechanism to allow those particular players to ebay/transfer their accounts (if there isn't one already) - because I can't imagine anything worse than being stuck with something you love but can't use and can't sell.

For those of us staying - hoping that enough Time (and beer) will heal most wounds. Especially the beer part.

 

[phlOgistOn]

I have noticed many people saying that we have no rights to a refund due to the fact we "bought" Beta access.........Well, can these people PLEASE explain WHY you can pre-order ED for £35 and ADD Beta access for an extra £15? According to UK consumer law, a product HAS to be as described at time of sale AND fit for purpose (which it is not)! I urge anyone in the EU/UK who wants a refund to contact your local consumer rights organization (trading standards in UK). I have taken advice from them and they told me what to do AND said they would gladly take my case if FD played rough and tried to wriggle out of a refund. FD does not have a proverbial leg to stand on IF customers use their heads AND rights

I believe people that did that HAVE been refunded already

 

[Shoklar]

What's sad is that they probably had the "gumption and foresight" to recognise this half a year ago"

You have proof of that accusation, Ventura? By all means, share it with us all.
Shok.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I've waited for this game since 93, and I live in a very small town with really, really crappy net service, and during tourist season (easter, september, late dec - early feb) I can't get on the net to even check my emails until after 11pm. Not ideal as I get up for work at 4am.

I was too late to the party to back the things that I wanted so I thought I'd sit back and see how things went and keep a couple of K aside for the new rig and headset to run things.

Oh well, back to ww1 sims and waiting for the cables to reach here.

Where do you live?

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

I bought into the kickstarter for a copy of the completed game, purely as it came with the promise of a completely DRM-free offline component. As it appears now, it has DRM in the guise of requiring always-on connection to the company's servers. It's an unacceptable bait and switch, and constitutes fraud.

When my card is charged on delivery, I'll be performing a chargeback, as the product I had agreed to pay for will not be as described, we're well covered under the Irish Sale of Goods Act.

A pity, as I was really looking forwards to this game as it had been sold to me.

I dislike MMO games as I have a life outside being online with other hobbies, and the fact that my progression curve in MMO games is always a lot shallower than the average means that my enjoyment is much less than it would be with pure single-player scenarios that I can progress through at my own pace.

I was sold the idea of a new and updated Elite that had an online component. I would certainly not have backed Elite:MMO in the slightest.

Ditto, and you're not the only one warming up the presses for a chargeback, I'm already making initial discussions with my card processor and they're quite happy to make it happen if FDEV do not honour a refund, they believe I've got grounds for claim based on the paperwork I've submitted, and unless FDEV are willing to make a good will effort to resolve the situation prior, they've already said that the moment I'm told I'm not entitled to a refund and submitted proof they've denied my request, they'll initiate the process along with a note stating that they will take notice of other, similar claims.

Unfortunately the ship skins I was fool enough to run through paypal so I will have a long, slow haul to get any form of refund out of them, and I can only do that after I've fired the claim off, but I'm in a position where I -can- do these things.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it >:| Oh, and Frontier Developments, I sincerely hope enough chargebacks hit that you get put on the suspect merchant list, because the only language you understand it seems is that of fire. I have no quarrel with anyone here, and I'm sincerely sorry it's come to this, nor do I have any quarrel with most of the staff or moderators involved, because frankly this is not their fault. But whoever decided this boneheaded legalese method of sledging their customers is good thinking needs to be hung out to dry.

 

[Ventura]

When 'hinderance' becomes the focal point of a debate, it's like throwing the dumby out of the pram because "I can't get my own way", this is what it boils down to.

Some people paid a lot of money so that they wouldn't have to stomach any such hindrance, and that's after having specifically inquired about offline mode, too.

Since we're still beta and the rest of the factions or alien races have not even been added yet. They could span hundreds of light years in either direction, far from being empty. Seems many have time to connect to the forums to have a good whinge, why not connect to the game like many of you already have and have fun. Even if it's just to kill me and hunt me down.

Hey, maybe I'll do it a month from now, instead, cause I'm going away for Christmas. Oh, wait, that's right, I can't, because I'm not going to have the net where I'm going.

Great. Just great.

 

[mbpoblet]

So many playing cry wolf over the fact that Frontier Developments had the gumption and forsight to recognize they couldn't do offline mode

With a procedurally generated galaxy, this is not the kind of thing you notice thirty days before release.

And the fact that the solo online mode is supposed to be able to run on a 10kbps connection does little to assuage the suspicions that this is rather a coverup for always-online DRM.

It's not like it's the first or even the second time that a developer has attempted to pull that particular leg.

 

[Deyn]

Erm it's a Kickstarter you a guaranteed nothing - you were risking an investment to get a game made.

Sure there are theoretical inducements to get you to part with money, but nothing is guaranteed.

You basically have stepped into a Nerd version of investments in products and companies.

Unless you ordered the Beta on their shop based on advertisements and interviews that even lately clearly stated there will be an offline mode, that is... Not everybody was a Kickstarter backer.
People even recently a week ago, bought into the game, as it was nearing completion, based on the commitment to "offline will be possible", as they live in Australia, South Africa or simply know they can't play in a place with Internet connection, or simply wanted to play on their own pace.

 

[EbolaConundrum]

I keep being surprised by the fundamental rejection of a living galaxy as well. I guess if these people are stubbornly against even trying the game as it will finally be when it comes out, there is nothing to be done about that. I do feel that they are missing out on something great due to being too stubborn to give it a proper chance.

Actually I think it's a good idea I just didn't want to be forced to play that way all the time for a number of reasons listed below, I planned on having seperate off line and online single player commanders to try it out:

1) I have a busy job and a young son, I get very little gaming time and I need to be able to play when I get the chance regardless of if Frontier have planned server maintinance or are having server capacity issues, I am not reassured about this as every single online game I've ever played has suffered these issues.

2.) I have as I've said very little play time any more, when I do get the chance I was most looking forward to playing as an explorer, since the game syncs exploration data with the living galaxy in online single player (the only single player mode now) and given that I assume we will all start close together in the Galaxy or players would never find or influence each other I'm unlikley to ever find a system the 24/7 early 20's players haven't beaten me to.

3.) Despite assurance of server archiving should Frontier adandon the game or shutdown in the future it does give me concerns if the game will be playable in 10 years time, add to this my concerns about there plans to support the servers through Microtransactions and how this will impact the game and their ability to maintain the servers. Will they introduce subscriptions or make Micro Transactions so necassary it becomes pay to play like many Android and Apple games.

4.) The other reason for an off-line mode modability, you talk about the Elder Scrolls the best thing about those games they gave you your own world you could mod to your hearts content without having to worry about impact on fairness or other players the online only model would make signifigant modding impossible as opposed to only possible in your off-line Elite universe.

The living galaxy model sounds interesting as I say I don't hate it very happy to give it a try but also badly wanted the off-line mode as an alternative and wouldn't have backed it if I'd know that wouldn't be an option because of bad experiences with basicly every online only game I've ever played.

My biggest issue as someone who will only be able to play infrequently, I don't feel the evolving galaxy on-line only model will fit me very well, so you may not care and feel it doesn't matter but to many of us it is I assure you a very big deal that the promise off-line mode has been dropped and has very much influence my decision not to spend any more money with Frontier in the future.

 

[Shoklar]

With a procedurally generated galaxy, this is not the kind of thing you notice thirty days before release.

And the fact that the solo online mode is supposed to be able to run on a 10kbps connection does little to assuage the suspicions that this is rather a coverup for always-online DRM.

It's not like it's the first or even the second time that a developer has attempted to pull that particular leg.

Well, if you choose to allow a few mishaps to ruin your life and fun with a game, that's your perogative. I'll enjoy the game regardless of no drm or with drm. Sure, it would've been nice to not have it, but I'm certainly not going to throw all what we have away just because now we do.

Shok.

 

[foxpur]

I have noticed many people saying that we have no rights to a refund due to the fact we "bought" Beta access.........Well, can these people PLEASE explain WHY you can pre-order ED for £35 and ADD Beta access for an extra £15?

Theory here: But by spending the extra 15 you change your buying a product at a later date, to a new contract of I wanna go ahead and make this money all be part of a new era in gaming. Oddly, I see this one happen at trade shows a lot. (from the legal side it's giving up customer rights because you are buying a warranty from FD..sort of) Altho, technically you could win a case to get back the original pre-order but not the 15.

 

[DaveS1]

So many playing cry wolf over the fact that Frontier Developments had the gumption and forsight to recognize they couldn't do offline mode, and instead pooled their resources into completing the game for us all.

Very sad.

Shok.

Are you for real? Gumption and foresight to recognise they couldn't do a major part of what they promised 5 weeks before launch date? Incompetence? maybe, dishonesty? possibly, arrogant disregard for a significant number of backers? I'll leave that up to you, but foresight? nope.

And gumption would have been to fess up in an overt and honest way, rather than trying to hide it in the middle of a newsletter.

And, as I have said many, many, many times: online only is not the game for me, yes it may be for you, but simply on the basis that the universe will not be in the same state for me between visits makes it absolutely not "...the game for us all..."

The thing that is really sad is that you only see what you want and have no empathy or understanding for the rest of us and accuse us of "crying wolf" when we are complaining that a major game function we have been promised for a couple of years now has been surreptitiously pulled at the last minute for aesthetic reasons (not technical ones) and the response we get from teh company we trusted to deliver on their promise is a mix of disinterested shrugging and legalese.

 

[Ventura]

You have proof of that accusation, Ventura? By all means, share it with us all.

Common sense?

Major features (and, it might not have been major to you, but it was to some of us) for a game that's been in development for two years don't get dropped a month before final. They just don't.

For it to be legit that they waited this long to tell us (and therefore, to make the decision) means that they'd have to be halfway, if not almost there, to having actually coded workable offline, which means that they wouldn't be screaming blue murder about how difficult it would be.

No, it's a decision that was made ages ago.

 

[mbpoblet]

Well, if you choose to allow a few mishaps to ruin your life and fun with a game, that's your perogative.

Oh, nothing of the sort, don't worry.

The only thing that's been "ruined" is any trust I had in Frontier Developments and on David Braben in particular, so nothing of any particular value (except to their reputation, maybe, if enough people agree).