No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

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If you want to take this route, then we never were in the beta to begin with. We were playing some stable version of development, not the cutting edge one with features and real bugs with swaths of time in between updates.

That's not a beta. Betas are test builds that may not even work.

Just like a release of a product is not called gamma, it's just making up stuff.

Yes you were. You paid for access into the beta program to get early access to the code. You got test builds that had obviously been pre-tested in house and worked - you payed to play test not for the final product.

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If I get it it's because I purchased it. You cannot claim that bundling the full game as part of the beta program has no effect on the willingness to pay of the customers. Let me explain...

Without the game's full release included, would the beta program have been worth less or it would have been worth the same?

It's ridiculous to claim that without the full release included the beta program would have been worth the same, it would mean that the game's full release is worth exactly zero... It's pretty clear that when customers bought the beta program, the full game was part of the deal and had an impact on what they were willing to pay.

The full game was purchased, only its price is hidden and bundled together with the beta program's price, but this doesn't make it less a purchase.

Whatever you though the beta test would be is irrelevant. Joining a beta test grants no guarantees. You pay to join to get early access to code to play test.

You didn't purchase the game, you purchased a pass into beta. You are getting the game for free as a thank you for that.
 
The game David and FD want to play is online. The bandwidth requirements of Solo mode are sufficiently modest. I've no problem with this at all.

However I would like to see something to reinforce DB's statement about releasing backups in the event the servers go offline - an escrow arrangement would be sufficient for that. It's funny - I'd have taken FD at their word before offlinegate.
 
I wont be backing anymore early game development from anymore companies. It's just not worth it, they all promise the moon but when the game gets to your hands, well..any gamer knows how that ends up. As an adult I should have known better than to this, guess it was wishfull thinking.

That's another very important negative side effect which people neglect totally. Issues like this deteriorate trust in backing and kickstarters. Naturally someone will pop out to call me a child that runs off the playground :D
 
No, but let the Police know all the same ... sometimes people need help and this might be their way of reaching out for some ;)

Guess you want to say, that offline backers should contact their consumer rights organizations so that courts can decide, if consumers where ripped off by lied advertisments?
 
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Vlodec

Banned
That's another very important negative side effect which people neglect totally. Issues like this deteriorate trust in backing and kickstarters. Naturally someone will pop out to call me a child that runs off the playground :D

In fact it has not been "neglected totally". It has been mentioned many times.
 
I just talked this over with a lawyer on this very subject (just cuz I was wondering from this coming up a short time ago) and he says it's the same as buying a Warranty. You are paying for something that MAY happen. Since it is a 1-off payment it is technically non-refundable. You can't get your money back an a Warranty, it's a form of insurance.

EDIT: They don't HAVE to, but they could... always worth trying.

Thanks for that reply.

I hope they don't pull that one on me and everyone else who might want to cancel the Lifetime Pass. Keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't happen.
 
I just talked this over with a lawyer on this very subject (just cuz I was wondering from this coming up a short time ago) and he says it's the same as buying a Warranty. You are paying for something that MAY happen. Since it is a 1-off payment it is technically non-refundable. You can't get your money back an a Warranty, it's a form of insurance.

EDIT: They don't HAVE to, but they could... always worth trying.

I am not a lawyer, but imagine this scenario:
me: hello, I'd like to order that washing machine please.
Salesman: certainly sir, it will be with you in 4 weeks.
Me. Fine.
S: would you like an extended guarantee for that? Only £100.
Me: does it cover cat damage? I have a cat and I am concerned it might dismantle the machine one night and render it useless.
S: Of course it does sir, here it is in writing, "covers cat damage, even of the engineering and tinkering variety".
Me: Excellent, here's the cash, ....
......
......
......2 days before delivery date.....
Salesman: hello, unfortunately your warranty no longer covers you against cats, we always wanted to cover against cats but unfortunately we no longer can. We didn't take this decision lightly and all the dog owners out there are perfectly happy with this turn.
Me: but you promised it covered against cats.
S: well, we always intended it to cover against dogs, we wanted to cover against cats but we can't do that now, sorry about that and all.
Me: well, can I have my £100 back then?
S: No, 'fraid not. Your warranty is insurance against the chance your cat *may* damage your appliance and is non-refundable.
 
That's another very important negative side effect which people neglect totally. Issues like this deteriorate trust in backing and kickstarters. Naturally someone will pop out to call me a child that runs off the playground :D

I have to say I agree I certainly have been put off backing any more games on kickstarter. I back 2 around the same time Elite Dangerous and Godus. Godus is shaping up into a bit of a turkey but they are kind of delivering what they promised so I can't really complain and Elite Dangerous is looking good generally accept for pulling a fundemental promised feature at the very last minute because they didn't keep it in mind throught the design and development and tried to jam it in as an after thought at the last minute.

So all in all no I won't be backing anything else on kickstarter.
 
The game David and FD want to play is online. The bandwidth requirements of Solo mode are sufficiently modest. I've no problem with this at all.

However I would like to see something to reinforce DB's statement about releasing backups in the event the servers go offline - an escrow arrangement would be sufficient for that. It's funny - I'd have taken FD at their word before offlinegate.

Agree. Rep given
 
Then why include it in your reward tiers for kickstarter?

Indeed, why did you and David go on record as stating it would not only be possible, but definitively so?

Why then, when you remove this feature which is such an emotive matter and indeed one that's a matter of principle and in some cases practicality, do you hide behind legal loopholes to blanket deny refunds to all but the most narrow of cases?

I've asked this to David, and I got no answers, perhaps you can do a little better.

Gimme a break. Maybe you are too young to remember physical DRMs, but not everybody here is. The text is quite clear, and it states you will not need to have the disc in the drive to play the game.

Learn your gaming history. Nothing there says that the reward tier gives you a standalone game on the disc. I have no idea how you manage to read it like that. Some of us like game boxes for nostalgia. That is what the reward tier gives.
 
I wont be backing anymore early game development from anymore companies. It's just not worth it, they all promise the moon but when the game gets to your hands, well..any gamer knows how that ends up. As an adult I should have known better than to this, guess it was just wishfull thinking.
That's another very important negative side effect which people neglect totally. Issues like this deteriorate trust in backing and kickstarters. Naturally someone will pop out to call me a child that runs off the playground :D
The few occasions I've pre-ordered a game, backed a game on Kickstarter, or bought an early-access game, I've gone in with the full understanding it could all go wrong and/or the game could be rubbish. That's the risk to me; my money, my risk. Those pre-orders/kickstarters/early-access/etc are all sold on the proviso that development may change, features may change, etc etc. It's all a gamble - so I don't pay what I can't risk to lose.

Thankfully, ED and some of my other purchases (Banished, Divinity Original Sin) have been brilliant gambles :)
 

wolverine2710

Tutorial & Guide Writer
To believe that requires trusting Frontier. I think we can agree that after this "offline mode" issue some customers might not be inclined to trust the company anymore. After all offline mode was promised too: you cannot blame people now imagining Frontier stating a few years in the future that they "at the time believed we could also offer" server archival.

I agree with you. Trust is something you have to earn and its lost fast. Something I posted somewhere else.

"They PLAN to do it and its their INTENTION. Both things were true for the offline mode (no network connection needed). So I'm NOT that hopeful. Should they go belly up either some other company buys it or their Intellectual Property (IP) is sold. In both cases they have no control of what happens with their IP like ED and their servers. Should they happen to release the server code before going under I do NOT think that would be in their best interest as they would make their IP weaker and make it less valuable. So TO me this all reads as a PR stunt and trying to spin it positively. They could be legit and honest but I have to say that I personally am NOT convinced. Also DB ONLY made a statement, Q&A session with magazines AFTER basically the whole internet reported about it and they got bad press. Personal statement: I hoped FD was a different firm then the rest but to ME it doesn't sounds like it. My respect for FD and DB has lessened quit a bit."
 
All I know is I'm mad at myself for shelling out 75 bux, for once again trying to trust what a game developer says they are going to deliver and in the end its just take what they what to give (after they get your money) But alas I tried it in open play so now I cant get a refund.
I wont be backing anymore early game development from anymore companies. It's just not worth it, they all promise the moon but when the game gets to your hands, well..any gamer knows how that ends up. As an adult I should have known better than to this, guess it was just wishfull thinking.

I know exactly how you feel...

"The lesson I've learnt from this is that I'm a poor judge of character." - Ian Bell
 
Forcing everyone into this one thread is pointless and self defeating, it is not calming down the situation it heating it up. I've had a thread closed, posts deleted and 2 warnings and I'm starting to get sick of it. I've already been mistreated by Frontier over this whole issue and now it seems the forum is trying to effectively silence people by pushing everything into this one thread which makes it utterly unmanageable and meaningless to try and discuss any nuisance.

I'm sorry people are taking things to far (talk of threats which is always unacceptable) but most of us just want to have our voices heard and be able to discuss the matter properly. Trying to do that in just one thread is as impossible as discussing the entire game in a single thread. If you really must have it off your main board create a sub board called Offline mode discussion and let us create threads in there. If you agree with this please feel free to copy and paste and/or quote it in your own posts as otherwise it'll just get buried like everything else.
 
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Four days ago when i post 'I think FD just designed the game always online from the start' white knights come and chopped my head off then roar 'Conspiracy Theory' :D
 
A few years ago I was out for dinner with a girlfriend. She was a vegetarian, not because she didnt like the taste of meat or anthing like that, but because she felt it was cruel to animals. Now she ordered a bean burger and I ordered a cheese burger. After awhile our meal arrived and she was really hungery and took a big bite of her burger. Then she said "wow, this is the best bean burger Ive ever had!", then a strange look came over her face and she started to cry. Why? Because she had just bitten into a chicken burger.

Now at this point she had taken a bite and if the management had been anything like ED(or YOU) she would have been told tough, its still food. It doesnt matter that its not what you ordered or that eating it goes against your morals, beliefs or values. If you dont like it thats just too bad.

Of course the management wasnt like that and went out of their way to apologise. Not only offering a full refund but other forms of compensation. Sometimes things go wrong, or dont work out as planned, and thats just a fact of life. But when those things happen you dont just tell those negatively affected to "deal with it". Why? Because the only thing you have in business is your reputation. And once thats gone, youre done. You might not like it and ED might not like it, but at this point the gaming world is watching and everyone is shaking their heads at whats going on here.

The best thing for your game is to let us go. They more you drag this out the more its going to negatively affect the gamers that are happy about being on line only. Considering you posted "that", Im guessing youre already sick of hearing about refunds. Well, give us our money back and you wont hear about it anymore. We'll all drift of into the night, and you can be happy that your game wont be put in the same box as X rebirth.

Wrong analogy IMHO (yes i realise yours was a real story).
You go into a restaurant because they had Bean Burger on the menu, sit down and order nibbles and drinks. The chef takes your order of one Bean Burger and one Beef Burger.
You are told after a wait that actually they had sold out of Bean Burger earlier in the day and whilst they had hoped to get more in in the mean time it was just too late really.

Angry you ask for a refund on what you have had already, the nibbles and drinks. You could STILL have something else, but you CHOOSE not too. Your choices are yours and I for one will not try to undermine them, but I am afraid the only error here was in poor communication.

Frontier have admitted that very mistake and have offered refunds to the unfortunate few who will not be able to play at all. For the rest who CHOOSE not to have the Online game, then that's a shame, would like you to hang around, but standing outside and waving placards around is really churlish.

Yeah easy for me right, I had little interest in the Offline mode at all anyway and that's despite travelling a LOT. ut that's just me... and yes I am hoping the same does not happen to the planned expansions, but then i would likely ask for a refund on the Expansion Pass piece IF that ever transpired.

But I bought into the vision of David Braben's ONLINE Elite and all the dynamic changing stuff with inserted events and that as far as I understood it was THe Product, the Offline was an add-on.

Its disappointing for those affected by this decision, but I am a little perplexed at some of the Internet-warrior going s on here sometimes over it, when said people are perfectly capable of playing the online version and are ultimately getting the Product they agreed to BACK, just with a mode less but other items added, lest we forget the items that weren't originally in the KS but have since been added.

Personally I feel its a shame that FD have failed to communicate this to the DDF (though i assume that was to avoid a leak before any official statement and no, I am not in the DDF) or that FD have learned from previous poorly communicational issues.
 
You edited my post such as to alter the meaning. I mentioned "sporadic eruptions" if you recall.

I did not change the meaning at all. Your claim was that it would've fizzled out - apart from sporadic eruptions, sure. However, since the topics I mentioned make up more than what can reasonably be assigned the term "sporadic", I fail to discern sufficient semantic support for your assertion that I edited your post, especially as such as to alter the meaning.

The addition of "sporadic eruptions" does not significantly alter the meaning of your statement. My leaving it out was purely for the sake of brevity. I stand by my statement.

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I know exactly how you feel...

"The lesson I've learnt from this is that I'm a poor judge of character." - Ian Bell

That may be true. But then the same Ian Bell went on record claiming that he could do a way better Elite IV, if he wanted to. Which to me doesn't exactly smell like roses either. But be that as it may, that was a dispute between DB and IB, and I doubt we're doing the facts of that old dispute justice in this thread.
 
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We've always been clear that the game is first and foremost a multiplayer game. Multiplayer and the evolving galaxy were the two core pillars that set this as something new and special for the Elite series. Without those there wouldn't have been a new game at all. Back in the kickstarter we believed that we could support offline play as well, but as development progressed the scope expanded considerably and more of the game had to held online for it to work as intended. We've constantly examined how we could hive off some of that work in a separate offline mode but that has proven not be the case.

Michael

Many of us are wondering why you won't provide a 100% offline mode for those of us that want it - if it's a smaller universe (which can be handled by the average PC) then fair enough. The original Elite's world was big enough for me and I'm sure this was also the case for many others.

As I said in an earlier post, as far as I'm concerned it's a case of No 100% offline mode = No Sale.

It's your loss.
 
Yes trust is difficult to earn and very easy to lose like respect; saying trust us if we ever took the servers off line we’d archive them and make them available so you could still play at this stage is like a cheating spouse saying yes I know I slept with him, but you can trust me to be faithful in the future and I still love you honest! In your heart you may want to believe but in your head you should know you have absolutely no reason to trust them again.
 
I am not a lawyer, but imagine this scenario:
me: hello, I'd like to order that washing machine please..........chance your cat *may* damage your appliance and is non-refundable.

What HAVE you got against cats?! :)
I liked the story though.
I have, IN MY HAND, a letter from my extended phone warranty yesterday telling me they made changes I don't like and removed something that I bought it for but I am not subject to refund and it's good for 2 more years... So... well... It happens.
 
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