No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

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That's funny. About ~9000 posts ago people were saying, all we want them to do is say sorry.

So they say sorry. Then they said, all we want them to do is refund us. So now they're looking at refunds.

He's even gone as far as saying he'll review the decision (to throw offline out) after release, and you don't believe him.

Just saying. Is this the point where I run and duck?

DB is British, and you're obviously not familiar with British politeness :)
E.g.:
- Sorry -> It was your fault but I couldn’t not say something
- I'm sure it's my fault -> It's your fault
- I'm sure it will be fine -> It won't be fine at all, but we'll just have to see what happens won't we?
- Yeah I might come round later -> I'm not leaving the house for anything today.

You get the idea...

Just google "british what they really mean" and have fun.
 
Back then, when they started the Kickstarter campaign, there were not many people who even knew the game was in the making, because there was not much of a PR to speak of.
The original backers that got the game started consisted of a bunch of fans of the original Elite games, some of which had waited years for the next title, most who didn't believe it'd ever come but yet never gave up that dream.
This demographic now consists of middle aged and elderly people with high, disposable income -> can spend huge amounts of cash on hobbies.
Let's be realistic, the older you get, the less you feel comfortable with certain things your kids like. Online is one such thing. Mobile phones would be another example.
A good amount of this demographic would not have pledged for an always-online-Elite, as much as they loved the old games, because online was not acceptable.

All those people are now ineligible for a refund and raise a stink.

Then there are people who have great internet just around the corner - but not at home, and no plans by the responsible companies to expand there. You don't have to live in Somalia to experience that. There are such areas everywhere in the world, take, for example, Australia. Heck, even countries like Germany, in the center of Europe, are still not connected 100%. No, tethering is not an option - I bought a smartphone when I was 38! Never liked the idea to be available for anyone who feels like disturbing me where ever I am with me being unable to fake to have "missed that call".
There do exist offline people, or people with severe traffic limits or really shabby connections (and by that I mean unable to retrieve emails level shabby).

Those people won't be able to play the game at all and depended on an offline mode.

I'm living in Japan, and Diablo 3 has maintenance on Wednesday, my ONLY day off, during my prime time, for 6 hours. This, among other things, like DDOS attacks like EVE experienced only lately, or other connectivity issues, can never be outruled as long as the game is online, and online-only. And I may even be lucky, because at least I CAN connect once a week to play a bit - but not much, because I gotta get out of my bed the next day early. On my days off my wife wants my attention, plus I generally do a lot of the stuff like going to the city hall for papers, or to the bank, or whatever. Would not be cool to lock me out of the game because they're applying hotfixes or doing maintenance or some bored idiot somewhere decided to flood their servers right that day. But well, a week later I might get a chance. But what about people like my dad, who worked as a cook on a ship? No offline mode means, no playing throughout the 6 months on the ship. Then he could play a while, then he'd be locked out for half a year again.

Well, he was never interested in games, let alone computers, and he's dead since 2000, but other people do experience such situations, like soldiers, or oil platform workers. Those surely will be pretty annoyed by this twist.

Then think further. 10, 15 years, when Frontier has to close because they just tripped up with a project and went bankrupt. IF they even remember the promise to release a server for the game, how many employees will even care? Or actually sit down to do it? Can we trust in Frontier to keep this promise? After all, they just broke the off line promise, right? Now, even if you play some semantics and say they didn't exactly promise offline (and I won't pursue this further here), the point stands:

There's no GUARANTEE there will be a way to play ED in 20 years.

Well, quite a lot of the original backer bunch won't live to see this day maybe, and all the now-20s will by then live our life and experience how it is to feel like Xmas the day before you have off and can sit down to play a bit - maybe. If the stars are aligned.
 
I joined this forum nearly two years ago, and yet this is my first post. Why? Because only now am I bloomin' miffed (to put it politely). I, like many others, signed up for a single player offline game and now it seems I won't be getting it. I am a casual gamer (probably like many people my age who played the originals): I really do not want a galaxy that's developing while I'm not playing (the downsides have been detailed elsewhere) - when I go back to a game it should be at the exact point that I left it! If I wanted a MMO game, I'd already be playing one, but I'm not as it's not what I want. Another thing I like to do is start again from the start - impossible in a persistent universe.
I don't mind downloading a game and verifying it at installation, but I don't want it continually using my internet access. I don't have a Steam account and I have passed on a number of other interesting looking titles for this very reason.
I gave in the Kickstarter and downloaded one of the betas and tried to play for five minutes or so, but gave up when I couldn't find any instructions, so from what FD have said there's [redacted] all chance of getting my money back, so I'll have to write it off as a loss, but it's a very bitter pill to swallow. I will be making people aware that, in my opinion, this isn't an updated version of Elite, but just another MMO with a space theme, and I think it's quite possible they could find a better one somewhere else (although, not having an interest in MMO games, I haven't fully researched this).
I wasn't expecting as much variety in a stand-alone game (as opposed to online), but hey, I was fine with the variety in FE, and surely with the progress that's been made in the intervening years a little advancement could have been achieved? It seems to me they've spent far too much time on eye candy, minor customisations, and intricacies at the expense of the guts of the thing, and if they were serious about offline play (as they said on Kickstarter) it would have been an integral part of the project all along rather than developing the online version and then working out how to port it to offline.
I don't expect this post to make any difference, but this seems to be the only option for registering my displeasure (other than an email which easily ignored), so I'll make it. I see there are now over a thousand different contributors to these threads (and I doubt many of those will be defending the decision (but I have not read the entire thread)), so I know I am not alone.
 
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DB is British, and you're obviously not familiar with British politeness :)
E.g.:
- Sorry -> It was your fault but I couldn’t not say something
- I'm sure it's my fault -> It's your fault
- I'm sure it will be fine -> It won't be fine at all, but we'll just have to see what happens won't we?
- Yeah I might come round later -> I'm not leaving the house for anything today.

You get the idea...

Just google "british what they really mean" and have fun.

:eek: I got it. It does make sense.
We think solo online is a better experience -> sorry we murdered your cat.:D
 
@DrT

1000 different contributors or 1000 different contributions? so you tried it for five minutes or so? i toiled for days before i grasped the mechanics of the game, i suspect most did too. pity you didnt persist but your choice, your opinion is valid and i you feel justified then ask for your money back...
 
When you enter a user agreement with a company you take on all sorts of rules that define the way you play said game. Everything from the way you can use chat to the use of content and of course the ability to sell said product to another person.

It is a contract and if you break it then you can be removed instantly for breaching the contract, very simple and imo a great way to ensure a good gaming environment. Without these types of ToS hacking, exploits etc would run rampant and the developers would have no teeth, with a decent ToS they can lifetime ban troublesome players without having to mess about.

You're dead wrong. Any signed contract is not above the law. Let me repeat that ANY SIGNED CONTRACT IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

Any clauses in any EULA which are illegal and abusive are VOID.

This holds in any country around the world. Only difference, some countries (e.g. EU countries) have stronger consumer laws in place.

And again, it is sad to see you are ready to concede your legal rights for the sake of "ensuring a good gaming environment".
Fortunately for you, legal rights cannot be conceded.
 
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Regarding pre-owned. It's none of their goddamn business what people do with their games once they're not playing them.

Actually it is literally their business. Game developers are in the business of making a living from creating games. How the market works is a key concideration on what is financially viable and what isn't.

It's like saying, in general, that copyright laws are no goddamn business of artists (of any type).
 
You're dead wrong. Any signed contract is not above the law. Let me repeat that ANY SIGNED CONTRACT IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

Any clauses in any EULA which are illegal and abusive are VOID.

This holds in any country around the world. Only some countries (e.g. EU countries) have stronger consumer laws in place.

And again, it is sad to see you are ready to concede your legal rights for the sake of "ensuring a good gaming environment".
Fortunately for you, legal rights cannot be conceded.

Sorry but where did i state a ToS would have anything in it that is illegal or abusive?!

Many players of various games have tried and failed to get around the ToS of certain games and all to my knowledge have failed.

Take a look at this for instance http://us.ncsoft.com/uk/legal/user-agreements/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.php

Note this part as its relevant to the the point i was making...

"You may not buy, sell, transfer or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell, transfer or auction) , or offer to transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction, any game Account "

You cannot avoid clicking "i agree" if you want to even play the game and when doing so you enter a contract which in a court of law is just as valid as any other contract you willfully accept.
 
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Another great feather in the cap of an Offline mode as compared to an Online mode is that it could include customization options when starting a new game (or even modifiable mid game) that control things like AI combat difficulty, frequency of pirate attacks and other interdiction attempts, ease of evading interdiction, cost multiplier for ships and equipment. Instead of the (understandable) restriction in an online game that everything has to be the same for all players you are able to offer players who prefer an easier time or a harder time the ability to enjoy the game the way they want to.

The cost of items is a classic example in an online game the rates need to be set so that ships and items can be earned in a reasonable time frame for the average player. But this can mean that the more casual player finds the costs unobtainable while the hardcore player complains they have more money than they know what to do with. It is precisely these sort of differences that make it possible for an offline Elite to stand as tall and as proud as the online version, it can and would have its own excellent features that the online version would not. This no more detracts from the online version than the online versions player driven markets would detract from the offline.
 
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copyright laws are no goddamn business of artists (of any type).

I could easily say that.

What makes us human (as opposed to most other animals) is culture.

Culture is the free exchange of information, to the mutual enrichment of all involved (society).

Trying to restrict that goes against culture, against progress, against basic human nature.

And it doesn't work, anyway.
 
Lets rewind given the powers of 20/20 eyesight when looking back. Things would be completely different right now if this was the message and stance conveyed 6 days ago:

-----------
We have some really bad news, folks. We have come to an impasse and have had to make a really hard decision.

We just can't deliver a viable offline experience at this time.

We know we have talked a lot about it in the past, but know that we have been trying really hard to make good on what we have said in the past while still making good on our committment to you, our backers and supporters.

As this could be shocking, especially to our kickstarter backers that made Elite : Dangerous possible, we would like to make sure that we do right by everyone who, up until now, had every right to expect that offline play would be a part of Elite : Dangerous.

As of now, we will grant full refunds to anyone that feels that this change breaks the commitment that we made to them. I can certainly understand how you might feel that way.

However, I would like to encourage you to stick with us as we continue to mold Elite : Dangerous into an awesome experience. We have many wonderful new things to announce in the coming weeks leading up to our release next month.
------------

But it wasn't. And all of you that are blindly defending Frontier instead of standing up for what is right are making this much worse.

And now I know why it didn't happen that way.

Read it in words of the man himself:
"Ownership" by David Braben
"Action We Can Take On The Pre-owned Problem" by David Braben

From the list at the bottom of the last article:
-------------
5. Make the discs just data discs costing say, £5, perhaps containing an extended demo, but requiring online validation to become a full game (eg by withholding the executable file), even for the first user.

6. Move to online-only. This is where the retailers seem to want us to go after all, so perhaps it’s time to make the jump.
-------------

David Braben is clearly one of DRM's stronger supporters. Everything that David Braben and company said about supporting offline and DRM-free was a complete, purposeful lie.
 
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I could easily say that.

What makes us human (as opposed to most other animals) is culture.

Culture is the free exchange of information, to the mutual enrichment of all involved (society).

Trying to restrict that goes against culture, against progress, against basic human nature.

And it doesn't work, anyway.

And unfortunately capitalism is the antithesis of culture but dominates our world. Unless you expect artists to work for free?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I hope there is a significantly strong anti piracy measure in place, DRM would be fine by me.

I have no issue with preventing piracy - just so long as they can be savvy enough to prevent people exploiting the loophole from the KS appeal promising a DRM-free physical copy.
 
And now I know why it didn't happen that way.

Everything that David Braben and company said about supporting offline and DRM-free was a complete, purposeful lie.

Read it in words of the man himself:
"Ownership" by David Braben
"Action We Can Take On The Pre-owned Problem" by David Braben

From the list at the bottom of the last article:
-------------
5. Make the discs just data discs costing say, £5, perhaps containing an extended demo, but requiring online validation to become a full game (eg by withholding the executable file), even for the first user.

6. Move to online-only. This is where the retailers seem to want us to go after all, so perhaps it’s time to make the jump.
-------------

David Braben is clearly one of DRM's stronger supporters.

I have read those articles and to me it appears that he at no point had any intentions on doing DRM-free game! That being said I am open minded and if he wants to come here and explain himself... please do!!!!! I would love to hear it!

Cheers,
 
I could easily say that.

What makes us human (as opposed to most other animals) is culture.

Culture is the free exchange of information, to the mutual enrichment of all involved (society).

Trying to restrict that goes against culture, against progress, against basic human nature.

And it doesn't work, anyway.

Shame to say it but the modern world does not work like this, piracy although widespread is not ok and really just a form of theft.

As a music producer myself i choose to give away some pieces of music for free but if i slave away for days/weeks to make something and want to actually make some money from it, who are you to say you want it for free?!
 
And now I know why it didn't happen that way.

Everything that David Braben and company said about supporting offline and DRM-free was a complete, purposeful lie.

Read it in words of the man himself:
"Ownership" by David Braben
"Action We Can Take On The Pre-owned Problem" by David Braben

From the list at the bottom of the last article:
-------------
5. Make the discs just data discs costing say, £5, perhaps containing an extended demo, but requiring online validation to become a full game (eg by withholding the executable file), even for the first user.

6. Move to online-only. This is where the retailers seem to want us to go after all, so perhaps it’s time to make the jump.
-------------

David Braben is clearly one of DRM's stronger supporters.

Those aren't dated, but they seem related to this articles from 2010 and 2012; at the start of this year he seemed to have had a bit of a change of heart, but of course, he might have changed his mind again, or this last piece might have been marketing.

Good find, in any case; I'd certainly have had a lot more doubts about backing the game if I had read that.

As Ian Bell said, "The lesson I've learnt from this is that I'm a poor judge of character".
 
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