NO to "third party tools" for ED

[specialsymbol]

I dont use any third party tools other than the forum. I tried thrudds for 2 days and disliked the way the game got truly dumbed down. Pen and paper, my own spreadsheet, which I abandoned months ago (because all the secret blak markets go published on the system maps). No VR, No joystick. No mouse. No voice attack. One year on and I've got some personal logs, notes, my own routes and still playing keyboard only.

This all you need to understand to be a trading wizzard

http://imgur.com/QsxScn1

and you can work that out in about a day and that's all there is to it along with the galaxy map.

Nice one, BUT:
can you really make money with Hydrogen Fuel?
How is it supposed to work - buy from refinery, sell to refinery?

There's no logic.
But it's not only the station trade logic. It's the general price finding.

Except a few commodities all others are that extremely off in their profit margins that it's simply not viable to trade them. When was the last time you've seen a grain trader? A fish trader?
A T9 that gets damaged during an interdiction or a failed interdiction attempt (the ones shortly before a jump, where you crash into the next star) with a load of fish will have higher repair costs than the fish is worth.

So, that's what I am complaining about. If the universe were dynamic, profits for fish would soar as no one trades in fish. But this doesn't happen. Fish is an utterly useless commodity (as are about 80% of them anyways).

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Nice one, BUT:
can you really make money with Hydrogen Fuel?
How is it supposed to work - buy from refinery, sell to refinery?

There's no logic.
But it's not only the station trade logic. It's the general price finding.

Except a few commodities all others are that extremely off in their profit margins that it's simply not viable to trade them. When was the last time you've seen a grain trader? A fish trader?
A T9 that gets damaged during an interdiction or a failed interdiction attempt (the ones shortly before a jump, where you crash into the next star) with a load of fish will have higher repair costs than the fish is worth.

So, that's what I am complaining about. If the universe were dynamic, profits for fish would soar as no one trades in fish. But this doesn't happen. Fish is an utterly useless commodity (as are about 80% of them anyways).

There's logic and there's way to find prices and how they work.

They are not million/hour prices though. As people seem to be justify everything only just to get massive health within hours, I have stopped to even argue about that. Let them.

 

[Matzov]

Trade data is not freely available. The pilot has to go to a market to discover the actual prices, with the associated costs and risks that such journeys might entail, or they have to purchase trade data and gamble on the prices being beneficial. It's not the same thing as walking around a building.

Crowdsourced prices remove (or at least heavily reduce) that initial risk and allow cheats to become a swarm of locusts consuming the margins, a swarm with a single telepathic hive-mind. Given that FTL data transmission is apparently highly-regulated in the world of ED, it's going outside the game to use such cheat tools.

Players that don't cheat just have to live with the fact that their diligent work in finding a succulent route is likely to be undone once the data gets posted online to be sucked dry by the cheatswarm.

We can all use bad analogies, here's one. Many sportsmen don't use PEDs. They know they're likely to be outperformed by a bunch of cheats, but they don't have to like it or pretend that the cheats don't exist or that it's not cheating.

You are Nigel Farrage and I claim my prize!

Seriously - 'Cheatswarm', 'locusts', 'hivemind'. This is a little OTT to say the least.

The price data is publically available, it is not hidden. You have to go someplace to look at it. Just like walking around a building, or perhaps a university campus... the analogy stands, despite you 'risks and costs' argument, as the cost is miniscule (akin to the energy required to walk on capmus) and the risks are pretty low too, all in all - albeit 'higher' than a walk across campus, where you might trip, or something.

 

[OamodSias]

Are you asking if cheating is cheating? In my opinion yes, cheating is cheating, regardless of the date.

I'm asking if it's still cheating when the individuals in charge of it do not consider it cheating.

Tom is a real-life trader, he travels from port to port trading goods. Hypothetically, let's say no ship comes with a GPS unit.

There is no law making GPS units wrong, bad, illegal or unprofessional. In fact, their use is encouraged by authorities.
Tom won't use the GPS though because the boat didn't come with one. When he entered trading he wasn't given one, his ships never had one. Tom has never owned a GPS unit because he prefers to "follow the currents."

Jerry has the same boat Tom has. Jerry has a GPS unit. Jerry makes more money than Tom because Jerry can find all the best ports, can navigate away from sea-dangers (storms) and can take shorter routes, thereby saving him money. Tom has to weather it (if you'll excuse the pun, lol).

In the race to become the best trader, is Jerry cheating... or is Tom just refusing to accept that there are other, easier, ways to trade and is of the opinion that accepting those ways is wrong?

Whilst that may be a pretty horribad analogy, lol, back home FDev have listed people's websites and applications, that can be used for trading, on their own website; they are supporting and encouraging the use of 3rd party apps.

So, you need to ask yourself: if a trader uses a 3rd party tool to make his trading easier .. is he actually cheating, or are you Tom?

 

[Fost]

I wish you could actually see the last market prices of a system you've visited though - the game "appears" set up to do that but does anyone ever use the purchase market data tool? I actually got so bored of writing down trade data I gave up on trading completely.

 

[Monk]

I wish you could actually see the last market prices of a system you've visited though - the game "appears" set up to do that but does anyone ever use the purchase market data tool? I actually got so bored of writing down trade data I gave up on trading completely.

There is something really telling in this statement. Doing trade, with no crowd sourcing becomes tedious and uninspiring after doing it for some time. Granted, a few folks will find that fun but, and I'm assuming here, most people will grow bored of that.

Further, using the crowd sourcing tools becomes tedious and uninspiring, too. The economy needs an overhaul.

 

[Slopey]

I wish you could actually see the last market prices of a system you've visited though - the game "appears" set up to do that but does anyone ever use the purchase market data tool? I actually got so bored of writing down trade data I gave up on trading completely.

Purchasing market data only shows you what is imported or exported to/from a system. It doesn't show prices, so it's totally pointless as even if it imports it, it could be less than you've paid for it at an exporting system.

 

[PhanttoM]

Third party tools makes a lot of people incredibly predictable because rather than "100% playing their own way", they are in fact limiting themselves to what the tool dictates.

From a combat/tactical perspective I've learnt to use this to my advantage over the years — Many people are so into whatever the current "meta" is, that it's possible to catch them off guard by doing things differently.
For something like trading it quickly becomes obvious what trade routes to avoid at prime time, due to oversaturation.

 

[Khelder]

Could it be that perhaps trading needs to be more than just buy low sell high? That's the basics of commerce, of course, but there are always more nuances to things. Exclusivity contracts, group/quantity discounts, trade agreements. There should also probably be more risk involved in trading illegal goods. I mean, fined for carrying illegal cargo, but still get to keep it and sell at a profit?? You can just call the authorities tax collectors.

Wandering a little off topic here. Sorry.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Purchasing market data only shows you what is imported or exported to/from a system. It doesn't show prices, so it's totally pointless as even if it imports it, it could be less than you've paid for it at an exporting system.

Really? I think it showed price points for last 24 hours.

- - - Updated - - -

There is something really telling in this statement. Doing trade, with no crowd sourcing becomes tedious and uninspiring after doing it for some time. Granted, a few folks will find that fun but, and I'm assuming here, most people will grow bored of that.

Further, using the crowd sourcing tools becomes tedious and uninspiring, too. The economy needs an overhaul.

Or people should stop to play game time after time and not to rush to having millions in a bank in first week. It kinda does wonders.

 

[Monk]

Could it be that perhaps trading needs to be more than just buy low sell high? That's the basics of commerce, of course, but there are always more nuances to things. Exclusivity contracts, group/quantity discounts, trade agreements. There should also probably be more risk involved in trading illegal goods. I mean, fined for carrying illegal cargo, but still get to keep it and sell at a profit?? You can just call the authorities tax collectors.

Wandering a little off topic here. Sorry.

Love it...more please

In fact...last night, I was doing some smuggling in my un-shielded chrome cobra and, though it was clearly a glitch, a security vessel just opened up on me soon after I jumped in. I was racing for the dock, hoping he wouldn't get a scan off. After I made it in, the ship kept trolling near the exit. I felt like I had stumbled upon an accident that could be great. Perhaps this security vessel was a detective that was tipped off on my rampant smuggling activites in the area and was going to try to "bring me in". I wish that were true...it was exhilarating to think of it that way.

 

[NE1]

I dont use any third party tools other than the forum. I tried thrudds for 2 days and disliked the way the game got truly dumbed down. Pen and paper, my own spreadsheet, which I abandoned months ago (because all the secret blak markets go published on the system maps). No VR, No joystick. No mouse. No voice attack. One year on and I've got some personal logs, notes, my own routes and still playing keyboard only.

This all you need to understand to be a trading wizzard

http://imgur.com/QsxScn1

and you can work that out in about a day and that's all there is to it along with the galaxy map.

BUT didn't you use to use BPC I'm pretty sure you were always commenting on how useful that tool was (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Slopey]

Really? I think it showed price points for last 24 hours.

Nope. Just import/export. If it showed prices, it would be getting towards useful!

 

[Monk]

Or people should stop to play game time after time and not to rush to having millions in a bank in first week. It kinda does wonders.

IDK, maybe I'm just truly impatient. I've given "honest" trading a real try, and I can never muster the commitment to do it for more than a few minutes. Once I start playing the trade shell game, I get put off. I'm not rushing to millions, I've only just got a T9 after playing the same save since gamma. I want meaningful data...I want trade mechanics that make crowd sourced data unnecessary...

I agree with the sentiment that they can take away from the game, so lets see if Frontier can make in-game trade dynamics and tools be the end all, be all. You won't ever convince people to leave the crowd sourcing behind, it is a fruitless endeavor. Change from within!

 

[Khelder]

Or people should stop to play game time after time and not to rush to having millions in a bank in first week. It kinda does wonders.

I get your point with this. I don't see the fun in using tools (or any tactic for that matter) to simply race towards some win-state - give me all the monies!

But for someone like me, even using the 'good' trade routes using tools, I still only have time to gain small amounts at a time. I finally was able to afford and reasonably fit out an Asp for more cargo space. A long way off getting anything bigger. Then there's the times when a whole night worth of trading is blown away (literally) when I lose an uninsured shipment (as well as my ship) to an over-keen pirate.

I think it all comes down to how you choose to use things.

 

[Lupin]

I have used and contributed to trade data programs and I see nothing wrong with this. As data past from player to player and made available to everyone.
I do not use third party tools to find trade routes as this takes the fun out of the game for me. Just as a way to remember all the prices without having to write them down each time. Though I still play with a wipe board and pen.

What you will have and always will is players misusing programs to gain an advantage, which will only effects that player. As part of the fun is finding things out for yourself. So who does it REALLY hurt.

Oh and BTW do you want to know BEST tool for ED, which most of us have used?

Spoiler

This forum.

 

[D'Kaeth]

Oh and BTW do you want to know BEST tool for ED, which most of us have used?

Spoiler

This forum.

Agreed. I have definitely used that extensively over the last year.

 

[Ian Skippy]

But is booking the flight the fun bit, or is it actually going on the flight? If people enjoy booking flights, that's great I guess. I just don't see the fun part of it.

Lets take it one step further: lets assume finding a route is booking a flight, the actual trading is flying onboard the plane and 'getting the conda' or whatever is arriving at your destination. If you find any part of your travels enjoyable and it compensates for the less-enjoyable bits, good! But some folks inexplicable book a flight, then sit on the plane for hundreds of hours waiting to arrive at a destination they have not picked yet and neither know nor care about. And once they get out of the plane, they realise they could have just walked there in 10 minutes if only they had known before. In that sense ED-trading is like traveling: it only makes sense if you enjoy traveling for the sake of it, or have a destination in mind. If neither applies and you do it anyway you're either insane or a fugitive.

 

[jrb]

Don't quite understand the constant critiquing over how each person decides to play the game to have nothing more than enjoyment....
It's like the Dr. Suess X's and O's......if you don't play like me...then you're doing it wrong....
I think we constantly make decisions based on information - from news, weather, purchasing small to large items, and planning a trip to an exotic vacation destination......it's all based on information that we personally have not collected....
Why would life in a galaxy of 400 billion stars be any different - I would think that there would be instant communication (such as Galnet....ohh don't read and react to anything on Ganet....it's cheating...you didn't find the information yourself)....I would think that in the year 3301 it would be all about communication tools to make the best decisions....
I use Slopey's trading tool constantly and it adds to my enjoyment of the game...changing prices, best decisions based on current locations, jump range, travel plan.....
I use Galnet to stay on top of what is being reported in the Galaxy....
In the middle of contributing to the Cemiess Exploration Data....didn't find that on my own....read about it in this forum....then got involved....
I use ED Shipyard to spec build before purchase....
I use ED Forums for amusement and a lot of advice...
Because I am having the time of my life playing this game with every shred of information I can obtain from whatever source is available makes my existence in your galaxy a cheat or waste of time? wow...
Personally I want to thank 3rd party information providers for taking time out of their personal lives to make my experience truly enjoyable....it is amazing what time, intelligence, and enthusiasm for the game that Slopey had to have to make this program available to players that wanted to utilize it....for that, Thank you Sir - my hat is off to you....
Say what you want, believe what you want, call me a cheat, a sham, an embarrassment that shouldn't be allowed in the galaxy of Nirvana without 3rd party tools....that's ok....because as long as these tools are available...I will continue to have the time of my life! Oh, and I won't say the way you are doing it is wrong either....play the way you want, just have a great time doing it!

 

[Khelder]

Don't quite understand the constant critiquing over how each person decides to play the game to have nothing more than enjoyment....
It's like the Dr. Suess X's and O's......if you don't play like me...then you're doing it wrong....
I think we constantly make decisions based on information - from news, weather, purchasing small to large items, and planning a trip to an exotic vacation destination......it's all based on information that we personally have not collected....
Why would life in a galaxy of 400 billion stars be any different - I would think that there would be instant communication (such as Galnet....ohh don't read and react to anything on Ganet....it's cheating...you didn't find the information yourself)....I would think that in the year 3301 it would be all about communication tools to make the best decisions....
I use Slopey's trading tool constantly and it adds to my enjoyment of the game...changing prices, best decisions based on current locations, jump range, travel plan.....
I use Galnet to stay on top of what is being reported in the Galaxy....
In the middle of contributing to the Cemiess Exploration Data....didn't find that on my own....read about it in this forum....then got involved....
I use ED Shipyard to spec build before purchase....
I use ED Forums for amusement and a lot of advice...
Because I am having the time of my life playing this game with every shred of information I can obtain from whatever source is available makes my existence in your galaxy a cheat or waste of time? wow...
Personally I want to thank 3rd party information providers for taking time out of their personal lives to make my experience truly enjoyable....it is amazing what time, intelligence, and enthusiasm for the game that Slopey had to have to make this program available to players that wanted to utilize it....for that, Thank you Sir - my hat is off to you....
Say what you want, believe what you want, call me a cheat, a sham, an embarrassment that shouldn't be allowed in the galaxy of Nirvana without 3rd party tools....that's ok....because as long as these tools are available...I will continue to have the time of my life! Oh, and I won't say the way you are doing it is wrong either....play the way you want, just have a great time doing it!

Hear, hear.