Not just Powerplay actions should be restricted to Open!

[AzraelDirge]

Basically disenfranchising an entire segment of the community based on their lack of access to the top tier broadband speeds required to make Open Mode playable and viable. (under FDEV's current lackluster/broken P2P system) Either through geographic location or financial restrictions or both.

Why anyone would think this is a good idea is beyond me. It doesn't get more blatantly discriminatory than that!

This is the kind of stuff Class Action Lawsuits are founded on.

This is the most litigious game community I've ever seen. You do know you agreed to a set of terms and conditions that say they can alter or remove services offered at any point for any reason, yes?

It isn't an opinion mate, but a fact. Get over it. The BGS is not about confrontational PvP and never has been. Sure there is a chance it can happen, but that is not what the BGS is about and never has been.

If you want something like that, then powerplay when/if it goes open only is your best bet. The BGS is there to create an ever changing environement for the players to play in. The fact that people have decided to play the BGS is irrelavant.

That sure is a lot more opinions about your view of what the game is and should be, which are no more or less valid than the ones I express.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

That's your opinion. I think anything that has an effect on the galaxy at large should have to be done in the light of day, where people can see and counter it. I was with a faction for a very long time that constantly dealt with PP prep and BGS assaults from solo so the group doing it could deny any wrongdoing under treaties that were in place. They lost a war, agreed to leave us alone, then switched modes and carried on because the magical cross dimension economy allows that to happen.

Now stand there and tell me to my face - eyeball to eyeball, that if the tables were turned your faction would not have done the same thing "because they can".

Sorry, don't beleive you. No faction or player group would willingly accept such limitations when there's a way around it you can't even prove.

Don't blame them, blame FDev, for its stupid choices.

As for the BGS - there is none of note - PP was it. For FDev to introduce a system that linked the economy, and the planetary govt type and rating (tech or agriculture)
and anything else like that would be a massive undertaking, far far larger than powerplay, that is for the most part a text based mini game and little more.

Won't happen - you did notice how *complex* the new Guardian tech stuff was right? Yes I'm being sarcastic.

Show me ANY two parts of unrelated BGS that are linked in any way? Hell show me any two RELATED parts of the BGS that are linked?

You could mine gold for a million years and dump all of it into an agricultural economy and it wouldn't do a damn thing.

You're wasting your time asking for it, because it won't happen, and even by some remote chance the entire FDEv team gets replaced in a freak parallel universe swap, locking it to open would kill the game because open is a tiny percentage of the playerbase.... for a reason.

 

[babelfisch]

That sure is a lot more opinions about your view of what the game is and should be, which are no more or less valid than the ones I express.

If the BGS would be about PvP than surely PvP would have some influence on it. It doesn't. The only actions that get registered by the BGS are PvE in nature.
The only argument that you could have for a PvP focused BGS is stopping players from doing PvE activities. Since we can do them in Solo this argument is invalid.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That sure is a lot more opinions about your view of what the game is and should be, which are no more or less valid than the ones I express.

They are not opinions. It is exactly what the BGS is for. If it was removed from private groups and solo then vast swathes of systems and the BGS would be completely static and void of any changes. There would be no mission system in solo or private groups, there would be no commodities etc. Those modes will become useless and pointless. It would completely alienate vast areas for the players who would just not bother playing anymore.

The BGS is what creates the environment for PvE players. Removing that from the other two modes would ruin the game for many. You want PvP, powerplay is right up your alley.

If you think thats good then fine, you are just deluding yourself. Maybe you want the game to fail and die.

If the BGS would be about PvP than surely PvP would have some influence on it. It doesn't. The only actions that get registered by the BGS are PvE in nature.

100% this.

 

[AzraelDirge]

Now stand there and tell me to my face - eyeball to eyeball, that if the tables were turned your faction would not have done the same thing "because they can".

Sorry, don't beleive you. No faction or player group would willingly accept such limitations when there's a way around it you can't even prove.

Don't blame them, blame FDev, for its stupid choices.

As for the BGS - there is none of note - PP was it. For FDev to introduce a system that linked the economy, and the planetary govt type and rating (tech or agriculture)
and anything else like that would be a massive undertaking, far far larger than powerplay, that is for the most part a text based mini game and little more.

Won't happen - you did notice how *complex* the new Guardian tech stuff was right? Yes I'm being sarcastic.

Show me ANY two parts of unrelated BGS that are linked in any way? Hell show me any two RELATED parts of the BGS that are linked?

You could mine gold for a million years and dump all of it into an agricultural economy and it wouldn't do a damn thing.

You're wasting your time asking for it, because it won't happen, and even by some remote chance the entire FDEv team gets replaced in a freak parallel universe swap, locking it to open would kill the game because open is a tiny percentage of the playerbase.... for a reason.

My faction explicitly banned the use of any game mode other than open for taking hostile actions against any other faction. I was a mid level leader and never once saw that policy abused or broken. Every set of orders I issued that involved operations in another faction's space remindedy pilots of that rule. You pay for a plane ticket and I'll look you in square in the eyes and tell you the same. Don't project your lack of integrity on to me and mine.

They are not opinions. It is exactly what the BGS is for. If it was removed from private groups and solo then vast swathes of systems and the BGS would be completely static and void of any changes. There would be no mission system in solo or private groups, there would be no commodities etc. Those modes will become useless and pointless. It would completely alienate vast areas for the players who would just not bother playing anymore.

The BGS is what creates the environment for PvE players. Removing that from the other two modes would ruin the game for many. You want PvP, powerplay is right up your alley.

If you think thats good then fine, you are just deluding yourself. Maybe you want the game to fail and die.



100% this.

For the record, my ideal solution is to let people have a standalone offline galaxy that is theirs to putter around and shape as they see fit, while the people that want interaction and a dynamic environment use open. You're also objectively wrong about PvP and BGS, PvP kills on clean pilots hit the influence of the top faction in a system.

 

[sgurr]

Powerplay is entirely player driven, the BGS isn't. Only players can undermine. Only players can fortify. It's on players. Not bots. BGS != powerplay.

Frontier are not moving BGS to open only; just the commander driven powerplay portion. Because if the entire thing is player only, then it makes little sense in a mode, where there are no other commanders; it's redundant, and creates a differentiated experience. Frontier have essentially just admitted this.

And it takes some serious stones to own your mistakes, even when they had the best of intentions. And they're trying to make good. This is exactly what people have asked Frontier to do. Good on 'em.

Lastly, people fly in open, because there are other people. That isn't a fault condition to resolve.

Great post kofeyh

 

[Rafe Zetter]

This is the most litigious game community I've ever seen. You do know you agreed to a set of terms and conditions that say they can alter or remove services offered at any point for any reason, yes?



That sure is a lot more opinions about your view of what the game is and should be, which are no more or less valid than the ones I express.

Locking out a player because of a voluntary, non court enforced change; that forces said player to make a purchase from them or a 3rd party for continued access, would be a VERY serious breach of several laws.

Terms and conditions from a company are only enforcable if they adhere to the laws of said country - regardless of what it says - there are PLENTY of companies that have extremely iffy T&C's and only get away with them because the customers are ignorant of the laws.

He knew that - as do I.

Now you do too, try to keep up.

You might also be reminded that we are talking about FDev, a company that has tried to wriggle out of it's legal obligations to backers TWICE.

Honest and upstanding they are not.

 

[AzraelDirge]

Locking out a player because of a voluntary, non court enforced change; that forces said player to make a purchase from them or a 3rd party for continued access, would be a VERY serious breach of several laws.

Terms and conditions from a company are only enforcable if they adhere to the laws of said country - regardless of what it says - there are PLENTY of companies that have extremely iffy T&C's and only get away with them because the customers are ignorant of the laws.

He knew that - as do I.

Now you do too, try to keep up.

You might also be reminded that we are talking about FDev, a company that has tried to wriggle out of it's legal obligations to backers TWICE.

Honest and upstanding they are not.

And yet they haven't been successfully sued, because most courts know a frivolous lawsuit when they see one.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

My faction explicitly banned the use of any game mode other than open for taking hostile actions against any other faction. I was a mid level leader and never once saw that policy abused or broken. Every set of orders I issued that involved operations in another faction's space remindedy pilots of that rule. You pay for a plane ticket and I'll look you in square in the eyes and tell you the same. Don't project your lack of integrity on to me and mine.

Oh I have integrity - and my saying "I don't beleive you" does not call that into question.

So, here's another question: Were you online 24/7 and did you take part in every action ever made, and see every report and oversee every change in PP and were able to correlate each PP change to a specific action?

I know the answer - it's no. Regardless of your own personal integrity, just becasue you didn't hear about it, doesn't mean it NEVER happened, and you can vouchsafe as much as you like, but you can PROVE, nothing.

Humans cut corners when no-ones looking and it'll never be seen, and in a game where "it doesn't really matter" doubly so.

You can only vouch for you, and no-one else, because you weren't there.

Sorry bud, but that's just how it is.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

For the record, my ideal solution is to let people have a standalone offline galaxy that is theirs to putter around and shape as they see fit, while the people that want interaction and a dynamic environment use open.

I do not want a standalone offline galaxy where it is completely static until I enter a system and do a tiny change to it, no thargoid story, no PwP. That is awful and just rubbish. No thanks.

You're also objectively wrong about PvP and BGS,

No I am not.

PvP kills on clean pilots hit the influence of the top faction in a system.

Yes you can, and then you are doing illegal activity and get hunted by the fuzz and can't dock at the stations due to notoriety, so it is by far not the best way to do it. You can do the exact same against NPC ships, it makes no difference. The vast majority of the BGS game is not done via confrontational PvP, but through PvE/non-confrontational PvP activities.

The BGS is all about PvE with the odd smattering of PvP if you play in open if you choose to.

I know how it works, I have been playing the game since before launch, have been a member of a faction and fought in the Lugh-Federation war which is now part of the history of the game.

There have been some changes that I am not that familiar with, but sure I can catch up when I need to.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

And yet they haven't been successfully sued, because most courts know a frivolous lawsuit when they see one.

Err actually in both cases it never got that far because once it became quite clear those bringing the action were serious, and had every intent to do so, FDev folded.

They backed off with Offlinegate that cost them many tens of thousands, and they backed off again when a group brought an action for Horizons, the fact it took 2 years to deliver and only had partial content of what was outlined.

Companies worth millions don't fold if their lawyers tell them the petitioners have no case.

 

[SnowyNI]

Sandro: ...and so, to finish up the meeting, we'll take PP off the solo players, give it to open only and tell them "it's the only way it'll work to beat the bots!". ok? Any questions?
Ed: Won't that upset the solo players? We've already gave wings and multi crew to groups/open, taking away another feature we sold them... it may be bad sir!
Sandro: No, no, no... they don't play it anyway cause it's broken. And we can't fix the bots issue, so it's a cheap workaround. Just do it!
Ed: But sir, the forums, they will... They have bought the game, some lifetime passes, and even more skins and...
Sandro: **** 'em! Let them cry! Now, is there any of that champagne left??? ...next!

 

[AzraelDirge]

Oh I have integrity - and my saying "I don't beleive you" does not call that into question.

So, here's another question: Were you online 24/7 and did you take part in every action ever made, and see every report and oversee every change in PP and were able to correlate each PP change to a specific action?

I know the answer - it's no. Regardless of your own personal integrity, just becasue you didn't hear about it, doesn't mean it NEVER happened, and you can vouchsafe as much as you like, but you can PROVE, nothing.

Humans cut corners when no-ones looking and it'll never be seen, and in a game where "it doesn't really matter" doubly so.

You can only vouch for you, and no-one else, because you weren't there.

Sorry bud, but that's just how it is.

This is what I mean by projecting your lack of integrity. You assume all people think and act the same as you, and will cheat and cut corners when given the chance in the same way. I've seen in real life as well, where people that steal try to excuse it by saying "Everyone does it, it's no big deal". The condescending tone doesn't exactly lend you credibility either.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Err actually in both cases it never got that far because once it became quite clear those bringing the action were serious, and had every intent to do so, FDev folded.

They backed off with Offlinegate that cost them many tens of thousands, and they backed off again when a group brought an action for Horizons, the fact it took 2 years to deliver and only had partial content of what was outlined.

Companies worth millions don't fold if their lawyers tell them the petitioners have no case.

Can I see proof of these lawsuits. I am interested in them and the outcome.

 

[AzraelDirge]

I do not want a standalone offline galaxy where it is completely static until I enter a system and do a tiny change to it, no thargoid story, no PwP. That is awful and just rubbish. No thanks.


No I am not.


Yes you can, and then you are doing illegal activity and get hunted by the fuzz and can't dock at the stations due to notoriety, so it is by far not the best way to do it. You can do the exact same against NPC ships, it makes no difference. The vast majority of the BGS game is not done via confrontational PvP, but through PvE/non-confrontational PvP activities.

The BGS is all about PvE with the odd smattering of PvP if you play in open if you choose to.

I know how it works, I have been playing the game since before launch, have been a member of a faction and fought in the Lugh-Federation war which is now part of the history of the game.

There have been some changes that I am not that familiar with, but sure I can catch up when I need to.

So, you want a galaxy to yourself that is made dynamic by the work of others that you can neither see nor interact with.

You stated that PvP has no effect on BGS. The effect it has is minor, but it does exist, as you admitted. So the person you agreed with and you were objectively wrong in saying it has no effect. You can swing around your bonafides as much as you like, it doesn't change that. Is this when I mention that I'm a canon character in the books to lend more weight to my arguments, even though it has no bearing on the topic of discussion at hand?

 

[NY09]

Actually it's a specific aspect of a game that will require live or psn access. This is consistent with virtually every other console title. As a console owner (as well) I have zero issue with that outcome; I don't actually know any console owners (personally) who don't have the live or psn sub at this point, depending on whichever one they have.

Because for multiplayer, that's a platform requirement. So this should actually be the least surprising thing any console owner will discover, this week. I am sorry if this is a deal-breaker for probably a handful of people.

You're not making a lot of sense. You inserted yourself into a conversation where I was responding to another poster regarding the scrapping of solo mode causing me and others like me a total loss of access to the game.

Now you're saying in response that I should accept that I won't have access to multiplayer functions if I don't have PS+. Yes, I know that, and accept it, but it is really an irrelevant comment when I'm talking about the ramifications of scrapping single player mode altogether, do you see?

There are plenty of people who don't want to be fleeced for online access and who aren't drawn to the orgy of overt stupidity that is multiplayer online gaming. Just because this is outside of your experience speaks only to the extent of your experience and degree of solipsism, not the true demographics. We're not all mugs who hand over money for anything and everything, and single player games are still popular and relevant.

In a later comment in this thread you said that FD made this game for everyone. So which is it? Are you telling me to accept that I must buy a subscription to play the game at all, or that I should be catered for as a single only player? Or are you making some other point that is completely irrelevant to the subject of single player mode viability?

 

[Deleted member 38366]

My 2 cents :

Careful when taking away Features (even if done with perfectly understandable and legit intentions) from Solo/non-Open Players that already didn't exactly get alot of usable Features in the past, without balancing it by giving them something else in return to make up for it.

I don't think ELITE can afford to alienate a probably considerable number of Players, given its already very limited Population.

PS.
I fully understand where the Open-only PowerPlay idea is coming from, in my books this has always been an attempt to provide a legit PvP Gameplay mechanics, obviously primarily designed to suit Open Play.
However, there's for example the PowerPlay perks which from the looks of it naturally attracted alot of otherwise non-PP interested Players, which is absolutely legit.
In the same manner some PvP Players like to temporarily align with a suitable Power to afford legit (non-criminal) attacks i.e. on pledged CG Traffic when taking place in a PowerPlay System.

So it would work, but IMHO would require a sensible and balanced approach by Frontier :
We're taking away PowerPlay from all non-Open Players.
To make up for now lacking one entire Feature, we plan to add {insert suitable Feature or change; i.e. Wings or MultiCrew} to become functional across all Game Modes by adding NPC Support.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So, you want a galaxy to yourself that is made dynamic by the work of others that you can neither see nor interact with.

No, that is not what I want and have never intimated that.

You stated that PvP has no effect on BGS. The effect it has is minor, but it does exist, as you admitted. So the person you agreed with and you were objectively wrong in saying it has no effect. You can swing around your bonafides as much as you like, it doesn't change that. Is this when I mention that I'm a canon character in the books to lend more weight to my arguments, even though it has no bearing on the topic of discussion at hand?

I never once said that PvP has no effect on the BGS. It has just as much effect as killing clean NPC's. It has minimal effect on the BGS and it is far easier to take out NPC's in open then a player.

 

[AzraelDirge]

No, that is not what I want and have never intimated that.


I never once said that PvP has no effect on the BGS. It has just as much effect as killing clean NPC's. It has minimal effect on the BGS and it is far easier to take out NPC's in open then a player.

Then I'm confused about what you want that a standalone offline mode wouldn't provide.

If the BGS would be about PvP than surely PvP would have some influence on it. It doesn't. The only actions that get registered by the BGS are PvE in nature.

100% this.

Hmm.

 

[Parmo]

Gosh! This is making Brexit look easy![big grin]