News NPC AI update

[Brian of Ardagh]

...is this actually live yet?

Yes https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259444-Elite-Dangerous-Horizons-update-2-01-02

 

[kenworth]

-Choose a safe system on the edge of the bubble, mine is Caucuma

Thanks for that...saves me the time searching for one. +1 rep

 

[g04tn4d0]

Thanks for that...saves me the time searching for one. +1 rep

Yeah, but it didn't really make a difference. Still getting pounded the the rear by most NPC encounters.

 

[Otherwhere]

The AI seems to be getting a bad rap, both in this thread and elsewhere. The AI is what determines how an NPC reacts and behaves after you encounter it. It governs battle tactics, among other things. I don't think the game having a bit tougher AI is a bad thing.

However, the real problem is with the way encounters are generated by the game. The Encounter Generator (which I'll call the 'EG' from now on) is way out of whack, IMO. I have a couple of examples. The most recent for me was an interdiction, which occurred in High Sec space. I'd been living near the edge of the bubble with a medium security system serving as my base. In all the multitude of times I entered and left the system, I'd never been interdicted. Then I went looking for a ship upgrade. The first High Security system I entered, I was interdicted by a Master Wanted Asp Scout. I'm a Novice and was flying an AspX, but in exploration mode, and hence not a real match for my attacker. Just to be clear, I had no cargo, not even a cargo bay. And I was interdicted and attacked in high security space just a few light seconds from a starbase. And that after having made many mining trips with millions of credits of metals in a medium security system and not a single interdiction to or from the base.

My second example has to do with mining. Every single time I enter a planetary ring or asteroid belt, and this is in empty space outside the bubble, within less that five seconds, a gang of NPC's appears within sensor range. First time it happened, I jumped back out of the ring and then popped back in in a random location. Another gang appeared. EVERY SINGLE TIME I entered a ring or belt, I was molested by NPC's. This is beyond ridiculous! I could boost away from them out of sensor range and then begin mining, at least until I left a few unwanted minerals behind. Then another group would appear, apparently impossibly attracted by my leftovers. Let me reiterate, this is in unoccupied systems outside the bubble. BTW, it also happens in unoccupied systems inside the bubble. I expect it also happens in occupied systems, but I've been avoiding mining in those. One other thing it does, it makes mining asteroid belts virtually impossible. You enter a belt with a mining ship and get immediately jumped by several NPC's equipped for full combat. You have no choice but to immediately leave.

So, as we can see, it's not the AI itself that's the problem. It's the EG. I'm heading out into the wild with my AspX for some long term exploration, avoiding the nasty EG for a while. It's a shame, because I enoy all aspects of the game - mining, exploring, fighting, trading, mission running, etc. IMO, most encounters with NPC's should be player generated. The exceptions, of course, are when a player enters dangerous systems especially when carrying valuable cargo, or when the player is in either a powerplay or some other conflict situation where combat is expected. Random encounters when the player isn't carrying anything valuable and not looking for trouble should be rare, not something that occurs everytime you enter or leave a system or base. Constantly forcing the player into combat does not make for a fun experience in this kind of game.

This.

It's not that the AI is too good at combat. It's that the AI is too psychotically aggressive and makes no sense.

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

From my point of view it is nice to know that the AI could be strong enough if it had to be... If you are a head hunter you can have challenging fights with special pirate lord or exciting fights with none player ships in conflict zones
But... for randomly attacking pirates the AI is a way to strong! Also the scaling between novice and elite opponents seems to be not reasonable... Additionally the frequency of being interdicted is not feeling like intended it's more feeling like a bug. For new, casual, untalented player or even for people how find there way in being pacifist, all the explorers, miners and traders the game becomes nearly unplayable or at least not enjoyable!
Greetings Adiri

Good rule of thumb, if they are interdicting you, it's because they believe they have a reasonable chance of ruining your day. Bounty hunters on the other hand are able to easily pick and choose who they want to attack and can easily find lower level NPC's to shoot in USS or even just by pulling them out of cruise.

Not sure about Mining, but the interdiction rate seems about right as a trader. In high population, high security sectors, unaffected by warfare or other strife and where the pirate factions have a low level of system influence I am never interdicted unless I am taking on missions (which is to be expected, and for which I am highly compensated over what I would make running my own cargo) Conversely, in med-low sec systems, systems at war or systems with high levels of pirate influence I am regularly interdicted. When carrying high value cargo, lets say anything over 2000cr per unit and I need to travel 300ls+ in one of these systems, I am practically guaranteed an interdiction, over 50% of the time I will bug out.

This seems pretty reasonable to me as I'm a trader in the classic Elite sense, not a 'hauler'. I haven't skimped on my defenses or offence for cargo space, both me and my ship are ready for trouble. High value cargoes, questionable security arrangements are my bread and butter. If your a hauler, you can trade in lower value commodities, over shorter distances and are able to prioritise an easy trade route over a lucrative one, because you will still make as much if not more than me because of your hold size.

Oh and don't be one of those guys who spends all their time trading until they can afford a high grade military vessel, Frigate or Corvette class, downgrade it's shields to the lowest possible level, fill every slot with cargo racks then load up on Palladium or Imperial Slaves and blindly fly off into the ether. That is asking for all kinds of trouble and the people who do anything that ridiculous deserve everything that is coming to them.

Fly safe/fly smart.

This.

It's not that the AI is too good at combat. It's that the AI is too psychotically aggressive and makes no sense.

Are we sure we are not just missing what the trigger is, every time I have been interdicted in high-security space there seems to be some reason for it, mission, big expensive cargo, civil war, open war, pirate group with high BGS influence in boom state, or just that they despise me. But with low value/no cargo I can go 10-15 jumps easily without a single interdiction attempt. Saying that though, when they interdict, they always attack now... used to be the case they would say something along the lines of "Your not worth the trouble" or "Whoa there big fella! I was only looking"

 

[pipo zelvelder]

Are we sure we are not just missing what the trigger is, every time I have been interdicted in high-security space there seems to be some reason for it, mission, big expensive cargo, civil war, open war, pirate group with high BGS influence in boom state, or just that they despise me. But with low value/no cargo I can go 10-15 jumps easily without a single interdiction attempt. Saying that though, when they interdict, they always attack now... used to be the case they would say something along the lines of "Your not worth the trouble" or "Whoa there big fella! I was only looking"

I tend to disagree. Since 2.1 the only thing I dare to undertake anymore is mining in safe places. So I go for a place well away from all RES and try to mine me some stuff. I have a clear 20% change that I will encounter a deadly or better big ship, shooting me to smithereens in about 40 seconds. So, what I do to survive is quit the game as soon as I see him. And start again in open space. Works like a charm (but no fun).
In the other 80% of the cases I can mine freely and when I go back to the station in the same COPORATE system, I have a 50% chance to be interdicted (always deadly or better) and have to run for it. Luckily, I know how to run now (and the first eight kills before that are mostly refunded by FD) so normally with one or two interdictions, I reach the station. Good for my money but far away from "fun" gaming.

Also, I can raise the 50% binterdiction chance to 100% by taking a mining mission. Logical? I disagree... The interdiction is always deadly or better, making it only a run-or-get-squashed game. Nice if i survive, but still no fun

I am convinced the trigger is: Keeping newbies out of the game. Still, I try every week if things are better... have to get the old 1984 feeling back...

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

Couldn't comment on mining, never tried it yet Pipo. But if the mining missions are triggering persistent NPC's the FD should cut that out! I would though look deeper into the BGS than just being a corporate government though. There appears to be dozens of factors that affect the real security situation in the system. Perhaps look for systems where there are no pirate groups on the system factions list, they do exist.

 

[Gibbon]

I don't think this will happen. Why? ...because the AI shouldn't know what's in your cargo hold, or if you even have one, until they've done a cargo scan. The "fix" is more likely to be to remove the initial silly messages from the AI that talk about how tasty your cargo is etc.

But they do know, or at least think they know. I get attacked in my freighters all the time or i did until i stopped playing, but this implies when the silly messages pop up that they have done some form of scan. Well maybe they should do a scan before there is any hint of hostilities, at least that way the npc could then react on the concept of IF CARGO = 0 NO ATTACK. Really simple fix if you ask me.

 

[ShimEnki]

The AI seems to be getting a bad rap, both in this thread and elsewhere. The AI is what determines how an NPC reacts and behaves after you encounter it. It governs battle tactics, among other things. I don't think the game having a bit tougher AI is a bad thing.

However, the real problem is with the way encounters are generated by the game. The Encounter Generator (which I'll call the 'EG' from now on) is way out of whack, IMO. I have a couple of examples. The most recent for me was an interdiction, which occurred in High Sec space. I'd been living near the edge of the bubble with a medium security system serving as my base. In all the multitude of times I entered and left the system, I'd never been interdicted. Then I went looking for a ship upgrade. The first High Security system I entered, I was interdicted by a Master Wanted Asp Scout. I'm a Novice and was flying an AspX, but in exploration mode, and hence not a real match for my attacker. Just to be clear, I had no cargo, not even a cargo bay. And I was interdicted and attacked in high security space just a few light seconds from a starbase. And that after having made many mining trips with millions of credits of metals in a medium security system and not a single interdiction to or from the base.

My second example has to do with mining. Every single time I enter a planetary ring or asteroid belt, and this is in empty space outside the bubble, within less that five seconds, a gang of NPC's appears within sensor range. First time it happened, I jumped back out of the ring and then popped back in in a random location. Another gang appeared. EVERY SINGLE TIME I entered a ring or belt, I was molested by NPC's. This is beyond ridiculous! I could boost away from them out of sensor range and then begin mining, at least until I left a few unwanted minerals behind. Then another group would appear, apparently impossibly attracted by my leftovers. Let me reiterate, this is in unoccupied systems outside the bubble. BTW, it also happens in unoccupied systems inside the bubble. I expect it also happens in occupied systems, but I've been avoiding mining in those. One other thing it does, it makes mining asteroid belts virtually impossible. You enter a belt with a mining ship and get immediately jumped by several NPC's equipped for full combat. You have no choice but to immediately leave.

So, as we can see, it's not the AI itself that's the problem. It's the EG. I'm heading out into the wild with my AspX for some long term exploration, avoiding the nasty EG for a while. It's a shame, because I enoy all aspects of the game - mining, exploring, fighting, trading, mission running, etc. IMO, most encounters with NPC's should be player generated. The exceptions, of course, are when a player enters dangerous systems especially when carrying valuable cargo, or when the player is in either a powerplay or some other conflict situation where combat is expected. Random encounters when the player isn't carrying anything valuable and not looking for trouble should be rare, not something that occurs everytime you enter or leave a system or base. Constantly forcing the player into combat does not make for a fun experience in this kind of game.

Yeah i think you are dead on there CMDR...the over the top aggressively loaded for bear so to speak NPCs tend to be against transport vessels and many CMDRs now have no desire to expose their CR account leave alone their ships to this crazy Encounter gen.

Anyone can hunt in the rez zones and choose their targets, the timing and angle etc...its easy to talk tough doing that and i agree in those areas ought to have difficult NPC loadouts for CMDrs to experience challenge with the rewards to match.

Whatever it is...if this EG is allowed to continue in areas outside rez, its spells doom and gloom for this game when so many other aspects of 2.1 brought a bright light--excluding RNG-eng of course.

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

Whatever it is...if this EG is allowed to continue in areas outside rez, its spells doom and gloom for this game when so many other aspects of 2.1 brought a bright light--excluding RNG-eng of course.

But there is nowhere to trade in REZ or will I get extra money for my cargo if I fly through a REZ on the way to my destination? Seems a bit daft to me.

 

[Schwarzwolf]

Same trading as yesterday, about 30 jumps and only got interdicted by 2 Fer-de-Lances. Have they changed something, or was it just luck?

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

I tried something. Choosing only to go to High Sec systems - no missions. Only followed on one occasion by a Dangerous Pirate - I got to the station first and he followed me there. Fortunately the system security helped me sort him out. Dangerous ASP 51k bounty and I was only able to take him out because of the System Security - otherwise I'd have been space dust - again. I'm on Competent. All I had was 72T of Gold and no mission in a High Sec Federal Democracy.

(Mind you... saying that... sounds like Europe...)

 

[Mr T]

But they do know, or at least think they know. I get attacked in my freighters all the time or i did until i stopped playing, but this implies when the silly messages pop up that they have done some form of scan. Well maybe they should do a scan before there is any hint of hostilities, at least that way the npc could then react on the concept of IF CARGO = 0 NO ATTACK. Really simple fix if you ask me.

Yes, I know what you're saying. These messages pop up all the time regardless of whether you're carrying cargo. As they are NPCs they just blurt out phrases they have been programmed to say. They can't do a cargo scan on you (the normal mechanic) because that has to be done in normal flight, not super cruise. Also, if it was possible you would see a scan message when it occurs.

Note that I'm working on the theory that NPCs should only be capable of doing things that other players can. Unfortunately, the game seems to differ by quite a margin to my theory.

 

[80Malibu]

I liked the NPC ships the way they were. Why? Why? Why? Did you mess up my Solo adventure? Where I felt happy to unwind and have fun after a long day of work. If I want to lose what took me 10 weeks to acquire in 3 short nights as I did, I would have joined the arena or multiplayer to have my butt handed to me. I lost my anaconda three times in short order engagements with the Super NPC’s and now had no money to get it back, nor do I have a chance with the Super NPC ships. Why do I want to even try to play the game like this? I even erased my game thinking it was me and I will have a good time focusing on other aspects of the game Yeah that’s not happing right now. I can’t do anything without getting blasted by the Super troopers. I am jumped by two or three NPC’s that out fly me in every way in my not so combat ship and force me to dump everything or die trying to run, I can’t even out run most of them. I can’t be the only person that feels this way. I hope this gets fixed I’d be happy to play again but right now what is the point? I might as well play WOW.

 

[Otherwhere]

Right now, the game design seems to be: Have fun avoiding destruction.

People have fun accomplishing things. That might mean blowing up an enemy ship, or delivering cargo. It might mean mining, or discovering a new planet. It doesn't mean avoiding getting destroyed. (OK - for MOST people.)

Not getting destroyed isn't what makes this game fun. Doing things, being able to achieve something, that's what's fun.

 

[Insomnia]

Right now, the game design seems to be: Have fun avoiding destruction.

People have fun accomplishing things. That might mean blowing up an enemy ship, or delivering cargo. It might mean mining, or discovering a new planet. It doesn't mean avoiding getting destroyed. (OK - for MOST people.)

Not getting destroyed isn't what makes this game fun. Doing things, being able to achieve something, that's what's fun.

Actually I've never felt I have accomplished anything in Elite. Now I accomplish something by killing off challenging enemies. That becomes the accomplishment. Hauling 300 tons of crap to make X amount of cash doesn't really accomplish anything at all.

 

[Lance Corrimal]

Actually I've never felt I have accomplished anything in Elite.

Different people like different things... to me, Elite used to be "To boldly go where no one went before". Now it feels more like the daily drive to work, just with rail guns.

 

[RafeZetter]

Actually I've never felt I have accomplished anything in Elite. Now I accomplish something by killing off challenging enemies. That becomes the accomplishment. Hauling 300 tons of crap to make X amount of cash doesn't really accomplish anything at all.

Huh!.. Elite was originally a space trading game not mortal combat is space.

 

[Assailer]

As a trader/hauler I want to hire NPC escort ship(s) to protect me. Is this a planned feature?

 

[Insomnia]

Different people like different things... to me, Elite used to be "To boldly go where no one went before". Now it feels more like the daily drive to work, just with rail guns.

At least there's some variation on the drive to work. Before you were just driving in an endless loop. And you can still go where no one boldly goes. That hasn't changed.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Huh!.. Elite was originally a space trading game not mortal combat is space.

Elite Dangerous is a modern game that has to stand on its own legs. With each patch those legs gets stronger. I for one doesn't care about what ELITE was about. And frankly it was a very long time ago. I think ED has improved vastly since 2.1. We just need to adapt a little.