News NPC AI update

[Riverside]

I learnt through experience and most importantly listening to good combat advice on the forum. As far as combat and survival goes, cmdrs are free to ignore help from experienced cmdrs and learn purely from trial & error, just don't complain about getting killed constantly and not understanding tactics, the majority have taken on advice or learnt to adapt.

Elite rank and hours played means little in this game if a cmdr is set in his ways and continues making the same mistakes whilst refusing outside help. Just look at how many NPC death posts started with 'I am elite rank and not a newbie' It means nothing in this game, just an indication of how many fish they managed to shoot in a barrel.

So if you don't mind my asking, what is your combat rank? I'm triple Elite, maybe we are not seeing the same issues in-game? Perhaps there are aspects of the gameplay you are less familiar with for your relative lack of experience in those areas? Maybe you are just less immersed in the Elite universe & treat it as a pew pew game rather than a way of life as I have for the last 30 years or so?

I have a little over 15 weeks gametime in ED, and most of that wasn't what you'd describe as 'farming'. I've just spent a long time 'in character' as it were, and yes, a little set in my ways because in my view, it worked cohesively before, where now it's a mess of inconsistencies & the magic has been brought front & centre.

My complaints, and the solutions I propose (or support) are consistently aimed at restoring the balance lost in 2.1, that you simply do not appear to see. Perhaps one day you will. Or maybe you will never understand, who knows?

You don't have to agree, but I feel it is important that you, as an upstanding member of this community, make the effort to more fully understand the issues you claim to offer advice on.

 

[777Driver]

So if you don't mind my asking, what is your combat rank? I'm triple Elite, maybe we are not seeing the same issues in-game? Perhaps there are aspects of the gameplay you are less familiar with for your relative lack of experience in those areas? Maybe you are just less immersed in the Elite universe & treat it as a pew pew game rather than a way of life as I have for the last 30 years or so?

I have a little over 15 weeks gametime in ED, and most of that wasn't what you'd describe as 'farming'. I've just spent a long time 'in character' as it were, and yes, a little set in my ways because in my view, it worked cohesively before, where now it's a mess of inconsistencies & the magic has been brought front & centre.

My complaints, and the solutions I propose (or support) are consistently aimed at restoring the balance lost in 2.1, that you simply do not appear to see. Perhaps one day you will. Or maybe you will never understand, who knows?

You don't have to agree, but I feel it is important that you, as an upstanding member of this community, make the effort to more fully understand the issues you claim to offer advice on.

Master Combat rank, Elite in the other ranks. like I already explained ranking has no meaning in the game. Anyone can farm a RES to Elite, Farm a neutron field to Elite, run Robigo or Sothis to Elite. In PvP Elite rank means little, you can tell a cmdrs true ability within the first 20 seconds of an engagement, on many occasions I have come across terrible cmdrs at Elite rank.

My Primary roles in game is a trucker/Explorer & engaging in PvP. I offer advice to freighter cmdrs, you can go on all day about removing AI interdiction in open, it's a bad idea, am not going to humor you anymore on the subject.

 

[Insomnia]

I'm triple Elite

So?
That doesn't mean squat, mate. Elite Dangerous ranks are only proof of devotion and time spent on the game, not skill. ANYONE can get Elite rank.

 

[who?]

After spending a couple of weeks now, getting more and more into combat (not really combat zones or extraction sites, more nav beacons and signal sources) I'm really starting to enjoy it. NPCs are a real threat now, and you have to pick your fights. I haven't been destroyed yet, even though I've been flying a lightly shielded Asp and an in-agile Python; but I've had to run from quite a few. This I think is how it should be! Challenging duels, not sitting in a RES farming (which I spent many hours doing before). Deadly Gunship? Yeah, I think I can take that, even if it has a few Engineering mods... 4 of 4? I'm outta here!

But there are some serious problems still, IMO
- I don't know what the spawns are like for new players, but I think I'd hate to be starting the game now, or have left it for a while and come back. There is a pretty steep (now obligatory?) learning curve in terms of pip management, module priorities, heat management etc.
- I just hate the entire instancing/interdiction/spawning mechanism. I'd love to play a game of cat and mouse in supercruise perhaps even with supercruise weapons, but instead we have NPCs who can instantly teleport from signal source to signal source, and interdictions that you can't really avoid if you have to travel a long distance in-system.

 

[Sourdough Steve]

So?
That doesn't mean squat, mate. Elite Dangerous ranks are only proof of devotion and time spent on the game, not skill. ANYONE can get Elite rank.

Actually, it does mean 'squat'. It means that whether they're a good combat pilot or not, they get interdicted more often, and by practically nothing but elite NPC's. And those elite NPC's generally have modded weapons. 777Driver, for example, does not see the same level of interdictions because his combat rank is significantly lower than Riverside's. And as you say, anyone can get elite rank, whether they want it or not, simply by having to defend themselves constantly against repeated and annoying interdictions.

As for 777Driver's comment about doing away with interdictions, I don't think Riverside or anyone else is advocating that. There were interdictions before 2.1, just not as annoying and constant as post 2.1. They were at a more believable level, more along the lines of the old Elite games. The current build is forcing everyone to become adept combat pilots, whether they want to or not. That's not the definition of 'play it your way' as the game claims.

 

[Riverside]

Master Combat rank, Elite in the other ranks. like I already explained ranking has no meaning in the game. Anyone can farm a RES to Elite, Farm a neutron field to Elite, run Robigo or Sothis to Elite. In PvP Elite rank means little, you can tell a cmdrs true ability within the first 20 seconds of an engagement, on many occasions I have come across terrible cmdrs at Elite rank.

My Primary roles in game is a trucker/Explorer & engaging in PvP. I offer advice to freighter cmdrs, you can go on all day about removing AI interdiction in open, it's a bad idea, am not going to humor you anymore on the subject.

I don't go on all day about removing interdiction from open, you are just not reading my carefully chosen words before responding in rote fashion.

Your combat rank suggests that you may not be seeing the same kind of NPC interaction I am first hand. There are plenty on this forum that believe that Combat Rank is not important, which is at odds with both the pre 2.1 rank locked missions and the post 2.1 tailored AI which is also rank based. Clearly it is an important factor in the gameplay, and one of the significant metrics that FD base a Cmdrs gameplay on. I accept that it may not be important to you, but it was to me, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking that the path to achieving it is a significant (but still optional) part of the Elite franchise experience.

A big chunk of my reason for wanting to revert the AI to it's former rules of engagement is this rank-based rule, which I find frustrating and tediously predictable, and which you are apparently not experiencing first hand. I think this undermines any opinion you may offer to counter my own, direct experience in-game, offered in this thread.

I think that our viewpoints are probably very similar, it's just a matter of degrees. I'd like to be able to seek out combat or pass it by, just as another Cmdr may wish to ignore Exploration, or trading.

Before you criticise someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Get that combat rank & maybe you'll better appreciate what I'm talking about. Maybe you'll still disagree with my points, but at least you'll be doing so from first hand experience

 

[777Driver]

Actually, it does mean 'squat'. It means that whether they're a good combat pilot or not, they get interdicted more often, and by practically nothing but elite NPC's. And those elite NPC's generally have modded weapons. 777Driver, for example, does not see the same level of interdictions because his combat rank is significantly lower than Riverside's. And as you say, anyone can get elite rank, whether they want it or not, simply by having to defend themselves constantly against repeated and annoying interdictions.

As for 777Driver's comment about doing away with interdictions, I don't think Riverside or anyone else is advocating that. There were interdictions before 2.1, just not as annoying and constant as post 2.1. They were at a more believable level, more along the lines of the old Elite games. The current build is forcing everyone to become adept combat pilots, whether they want to or not. That's not the definition of 'play it your way' as the game claims.

Elite combat rank is a reflection of how many AI you have destroyed, prior to 2.1 this could be done easily through sitting in a RES, it doesn't even take into account PvP.

Interdictions do not increase with Combat rank, the level of AI adjusts based on your combat rank/current ship/Mission accepted/bounties on your head.

As far as interdictions, I was happier before they changed it to be based on Combat rank, I flew the entire time in Beta & prior to the nerf, so I know exactly what it is like to be hunted by Elite raked NPC's that could actually fight, check my videos. Elite or high ranked NPC's have been tamed again, the rank itself is not an issue.

As I have always said, leave the high rank AI as challenging, focus on the conditions for interdictions - Anarchy systems/Hunting high value cargo etc etc

Check this post regarding AI interdictions in Open - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/276250-What-if

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I

Before you criticise someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Get that combat rank & maybe you'll better appreciate what I'm talking about. Maybe you'll still disagree with my points, but at least you'll be doing so from first hand experience

As already explained, during the whole of Beta and for weeks after release I was posting videos of combat with Elite ships whilst in a freighter and various combat ships, a bunch of those videos are in this thread. So yes I have had first hand experience, I was one of those given advice on how to deal with those interdictions before they nerfed everything and based it purely on combat rank.

Btw did you take part in Beta? the AI was more difficult, it was toned down for release and a group of cmdrs still complained that it was too hard. We had a poll on the subject, the majority was happy with the difficulty, the devs still toned the AI down further.

 

[Riverside]

Check this post regarding AI interdictions in Open - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/276250-What-if

This is a good one too: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/276499-Just-a-rant

I did take part in beta, the last few iterations went through very quickly & although I dipped into Beta6 for the final battle & some CZ action most of my experience was from Beta4 & earlier. I posted my opinions in the Poll threads at the time, although they lacked the game time I now have my view remains essentially unchanged. It was worth a go, but in my opinion it doesn't work for me.

I'm afraid I don't accept your experience of day-to-day life in-game being analogous to that of a Combat Elite Cmdr post 2.1. The difficulty level is one thing (and I accept we disagree on that part), the repetitive tedium of it is very real

 

[777Driver]

the repetitive tedium of it is very real

Yes it is repetitive, doesn't matter what rank they are, they interdict and die the same way, especially now the AI has been tamed. I can post countless video taking on Elite rank ships, the issue is not the rank, level of interdictions are the same, it is simply the locations that players are being interdicted that needs to be looked into (High sec systems) and the fact that pirates still target you for low value cargo.

You seem to be under the impression that having an Elite rank makes you more likely to be interdicted. It only dictates the rank of the ship.

 

[Riverside]

You seem to be under the impression that having an Elite rank makes you more likely to be interdicted. It only dictates the rank of the ship.

I'm not under any such impression, I don't see what you see as a Master. However I'm glad to see that you are starting to appreciate what I am currently facing on a daily basis, apparently with no end in sight. I am optimistic that you are not the only one still reading this thread though, perhaps some good will come of our conversation

If the interdictors were easy to kill, but at the same frequency as now, I would simply kill them & move on, wasting minimal time on a distraction from my current task. If they were at their current difficult level but rare & meaningful events as they were before, that would be pretty cool, but really I was quite happy with the previous rules & max difficulty level & would prefer to revert to those. Note that I am specifically discussing Interdictions here.

If we were both to choose to explore right now, we would both need to plan our loadout around returning to the bubble with some scavenged cargo. Whatever Dangerous NPC you face will be a bit of a challenge in an Exploration ship, but my loadout will have to be able to out-tank a chain of combat Condas until I can dock. I'll be exploring in a Combat Corvette. What ship would you need to use to plan for worst case?

 

[777Driver]

What ship would you need to use to plan for worst case?

300mj of shielding for an Elite ranked ship, prior to the Nerf it would be 500mj, so pretty much anything from a T7 upwards. The T9 I use runs 500mj in the Elite rank videos I post online, my Cutter enroute to Jaques is only running 350mj of shielding. As I have said previously, Elite ranked ships are non issue.

Why on earth would you explore in a Combat Corvette? Look, this is just getting silly now. I'll leave you with a few options and then I'm done with this.

Exploration -

If you are paranoid, park a heavily defended ship on the outskirts like 17 Draconis/Sothis or any remote system. Use your lightly shielded ship to explore, take the combat ship into the bubble to sell data.

Doing multi jumps inside populated space, as soon as the AI types on comms - Throttle back, drop to normal space, high wake to the next system as normal. The AI will never get a chance to interdict you.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Actually, it does mean 'squat'. It means that whether they're a good combat pilot or not, they get interdicted more often, and by practically nothing but elite NPC's. And those elite NPC's generally have modded weapons. 777Driver, for example, does not see the same level of interdictions because his combat rank is significantly lower than Riverside's. And as you say, anyone can get elite rank, whether they want it or not, simply by having to defend themselves constantly against repeated and annoying interdictions.

As for 777Driver's comment about doing away with interdictions, I don't think Riverside or anyone else is advocating that. There were interdictions before 2.1, just not as annoying and constant as post 2.1. They were at a more believable level, more along the lines of the old Elite games. The current build is forcing everyone to become adept combat pilots, whether they want to or not. That's not the definition of 'play it your way' as the game claims.

Speaking of interdictions, it seems that they were tweaked again to now tip more heavily toward the NPC interdicting you. When Frontier made some changes a few releases ago (1.6?), I remember that I went from winning (or evading) almost all interdictions to the complete other side of things, meaning I would lose or been interdicted almost all the time. They tweaked it back after admitting there were some bugs related to the network. Well, I haven't heard much about interdictions since the "new" AI has been dominating the discussions but it seems that interdictions are back to where Frontier tried to put them. Basically, I'm losing almost all interdictions. The only time I can win is when my FSD is charging and in fighting the interdiction, I happen to get back to the system target that I'm jumping to. Otherwise, I almost always lose now. Exactly as it was when Frontier tried to make them harder a few months ago. I will keep the dot centered in the reticle and I stop losing. But I'm not gaining, or gain very little. As soon as the reticle goes crazy, I quickly lose all the gains and then lose the interdiction.

On the top of it, it seems that the more you are rolling when the interdiction concludes, the more likely you're going to spin forever and get some damages. I usually try to roll a lot when fighting an interdiction but at some point, I tried to keep going straight. Might have been only a fluke but it seems that I had a lot less of that endless spinning.

Anybody else noticed those 2 observations?

 

[Riverside]

Why on earth would you explore in a Combat Corvette? Look, this is just getting silly now.

I agree, the current situation is silly, this is my point. The Corvette has the firepower to take out an Elite Conda without using non-craftable consumables, keeping it's shields up with enough margin for error that I can afford to be imperfect a few times. My Conda can't outrun another Conda, and my Asp can't outrun an FDL with room for error.

I have an established point of re-entry, this is good practice but NPCs spawn several hundred light years beyond the bubble, and I'd need to run that gauntlet if I want to bring any cargo back. This isn't entirely paranoia, I've tried it and have been interdicted 400ly from the bubble.

As I said, the 2.1 AI change wrecks my gameplay. Not in theory, not probably, not paranoid ramblings, but first hand experience. I would be in favour of dumping the lot & returning to 2.0 until it's affect on non-combat gameplay is moderated because the situation is, as you quite rightly say, silly

 

[Riverside]

On the top of it, it seems that the more you are rolling when the interdiction concludes, the more likely you're going to spin forever and get some damages. I usually try to roll a lot when fighting an interdiction but at some point, I tried to keep going straight. Might have been only a fluke but it seems that I had a lot less of that endless spinning.

I have seen that if you fail an interdiction & drop spinning rapidly, boost no longer rights your ship immediately. I have experienced fewer glitched interdictions though. The Interdiction mechanic is an example of gameplay that was designed with the old AI in mind, where what were minor issues before have become a much bigger deal because of the increased threat.

 

[777Driver]

as you quite rightly say, silly

I was talking about your posts, we both know you already knew that. If your only hope of taking at an Elite Anaconda without losing shields is by using a Corvette, well that pretty much sums up a large chunk of Cmdrs that reached Combat Elite rank prior to 2.1

Your anaconda doesn't need to outrun another anaconda, Your Asp doesn't need to outrun an FDL. You could actually follow advice on this forum regarding escape techniques. As you have already said, you like to learn for yourself, so good luck exploring in your Combat Corvette.

 

[Riverside]

I was talking about your posts, we both know you already knew that. If your only hope of taking at an Elite Anaconda without losing shields is by using a Corvette, well that pretty much sums up a large chunk of Cmdrs that reached Combat Elite rank prior to 2.1

Your anaconda doesn't need to outrun another anaconda, Your Asp doesn't need to outrun an FDL. You could actually follow advice on this forum regarding escape techniques. As you have already said, you like to learn for yourself, so good luck exploring in your Combat Corvette.

Do not follow where the path may lead, go where there is no path & leave a trail. I prefer to find solutions for myself

As I described, the Corvette is there because it can safely survive multiple encounters, not just to kill one. In a post you mentioned earlier I describe an 18-hop run I did on Monday, killing 11 Condas & 6 FDLs. This was in the bubble & I was able to dock to rearm every time I felt the need to be comfortable I would survive the next, and I face this challenge on every trip for the foreseeable future. Everyone will eventually if the current rules persist.

You do not need to agree with my arguments or the coping mechanisms I adopted, only to understand that they are based on my personal experience in-game. My feeling is that you simply do not understand the issue you are offering solutions to, which is probably why you continue to use the word 'easy' inappropriately.

That you don't understand isn't really the problem though. That you claim to, then make bold statements about how easy it is to solve, that's more of a problem for me. Moving forward, I'd like to think I've opened your eyes a little, but if you choose not to see, well that's up to you buddy

 

[777Driver]

That you don't understand isn't really the problem though. That you claim to, then make bold statements about how easy it is to solve

I make statements then back it up with video evidence, you on the other hand post about exploring in fully combat configured Corvette. I read the post you made about the Anaconda's and FDL's, you also claim to have made 2 billion in the past 4 weeks, what do you expect when you stack multiple freight & smuggling missions? It's a choice we all make.

I stack high rank missions, get multiple interdictions from Elite rank ships spawned due to the mission rank, I don't whinge about high level of interdictions if I am pulling 60+ mill per session, and I'm doing it in a T9.

 

[Riverside]

I read the post you made about the Anaconda's and FDL's, you also claim to have made 2 billion in the past 4 weeks, what do you expect when you stack multiple freight & smuggling missions? It's a choice we all make.

2 billion in the last 4 weeks? Got a link to that?

I've probably frittered away about a quarter billion in the last few weeks outfitting ships & testing. I'm not that guy

I think I saw one of your vids, or one you posted a week or two ago when someone was complaining about the T-9's handling. It was an impressive vid, but not one of actions that are easily emulated by anyone. We all have different levels of ability, natural or practiced. I would hardly recommend a vid showing those sort of manoeuvres as easy, any more than I would expect everyone to be able to do everything Isinona did.


I don't generally copy anyone. I play my own game, at my own pace. I understand that you are happy to deride them as easy, but I'm proud of my achievements in-game. Combat was the easiest rank to obtain of the three, but they all required commitment & tenacity for me to reach my target of doing it within a year (to re-earn my Acornsoft badge I got as a kid).

I don't instance switch (although I have done it), I don't PvP (I would consider it impolite to potentially spoil another players' day by either killing them or not being a worthy enough opponent), but respect the opinions of those that do, I just bum around in a Cobra Mk111 in open, mostly scavenging & exploring in & out of the bubble. Or at least I did until 2.1, now I try to do much the same, but in a Corvette instead.

 

[777Driver]

2 billion in the last 4 weeks? Got a link to that?

I've probably frittered away about a quarter billion in the last few weeks outfitting ships & testing. I'm not that guy

Apologies mate, just checked the topic and it's another cmdr in the Ceos topic, he has the same Avatar as you. Anyway, some new adjustments have come into play, looks like they may have finally toned down interdiction's in lawful systems.

 

[Riverside]

Apologies mate, just checked the topic and it's another cmdr in the Ceos topic, he has the same Avatar as you. Anyway, some new adjustments have come into play, looks like they may have finally toned down interdiction's in lawful systems.

A pleasure to have been forced to consider my position more thoroughly 777Driver, thank you for taking the time. I hope we can both find what we want out of the 2.1.0.5 update, it seems to be a step in the right direction for both of us rather than just a compromise.