NPC Crew Gender / Skill Level update - No bias found

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Ok, a little off topic and likely to be nuked by the thought police, but as the editing/silencing on this thread seems to be as one sided as the last (which I didn't post on, btw, so no axe to grind, just my observations from the sidelines):



You're completely correct, but probably not in the way you think you are. We certainly don't have equality between the genders, at least in the UK. Males have no reproductive rights. Males have far fewer rights in relationship breakdowns. Males have far less protection from violence perpetuated on them by females, none at all from female rapists. Males have fewer resources allocated to them in health care, in spite of living shorter, less healthy lives. Males are the vast majority of the homeless, while being the lowest priority for social housing. Males receive less support in education, in spite of having far fewer successes at any level within our education system. The STEM fields are outliers; females utterly dominate degree level achievement and are now the majority of students at UK universities. STEM will soon follow the rest- government funded initiatives like Athena SWAN, ECU, WISE, equatescotland and many others will make sure of that.
As for shutting down the conversation? There is no conversation. Any attempt to have one is shut down almost immediately by complaints from the ideologically pure and righteous. Take a look at the now sanitised other thread. It all looks very PC! ;)



I read the last thread with interest. Those jumping to Susanna's defence barely stopped short of offering violence to dissenters- I dread to think what they'd have said on a less moderated forum without a profanity filter! My mind is open enough to observe the behaviour of both sides of an argument. Perhaps there's value in all of us attempting to do the same? :cool:



Sometimes, mate. Other times it really is someone with an agenda stirring up trouble. And the ideology which must not be named is remarkably touchy about being questioned about how their allegations have any basis in reality. Sauce for the goose, my dude...:p



...responding to "Explain to me how the hell you expect Elite to survive if the very people who bring it to life are doing 10-15 because you convinced a corrupted judiciary system of Frontier's guilt of the thought crime of unconscious bias?"

Maklar, I don't know where you live, but within walking distance of where I stay two men have been to court in the last couple of months for making jokes on social media. One is likely to be jailed later this year, the other spent the weekend in jail and has had the case stood over awaiting a court hearing. It may or may not go to trial; it'll hang over him indefinitely. Just what a single father, grieving his recently deceased wife, needs to be worrying about! :mad:
Neither case would have seemed likely even a couple of years ago, now they look like the start of a new kind of court process. If they're convicted, expect to see harsher sentences applied for and a broader interpretation of the crimes they're alleged to have committed used to ensnare others. The possibility of game developers being tried for thought crimes in the near future is very real. That's reality in the world I live in. Your mileage may vary, you may even be lucky enough to live in a country where freedom of speech is protected by law. I really wish I did... :(

Another for whom the force of victimization is strong.
 
Another for whom the force of victimization is strong.

If he's speaking from personal experience using facts, then it's much more adult to challenge him on the basis of his facts so that you can verify if they are true and thus deem whether there's any merit to his view or position. That's what grown ups do...
 
:D You or me?

You, of course.

It is a common trope amongst those wanting to diminish or deny sexism to claim that men are the *real* victims. Yet there is no doubt that men as a whole are not victimized because of their gender. Now, this does not mean that men cannot be treated badly in certain circumstances. But don't confuse the issues, and dismiss one because you have your own.

Now, Susanna has been gentle, open, and welcoming in both the censored thread and in this one. There is no reason to run her down, or deny that sexism is an issue in tech and gaming.

In this instance, a finding that raised concerns turned out to be a non-issue. No reason to get exercised about that. No reason to pretend it will be the end of Elite or Frontier.
 
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Hmm. In regards to the rather lengthy post above I’ll say this: you’re completely right that people have neglected the rights of men in certain areas, and pointing them out is very much your right and in fact I’d encourage you to do so as it opens discussion.

However, it is not respectable to hijack a conversation about the rights of a different group of people to one you belong to and to turn it into a conversation about you. Now I’m not saying that bringing something up in a discussion on what is essentially on the same topic, but from a different perspective is wrong BUT you went beyond that and proceeded to DENY the other party’s right to their claims WITHOUT any arguments against their points and did it solely to further your own agenda. It is not right for people to shut down conversation - something which you yourself seem to think! - and doing so is extremely counter productive not only to the other party’s cause but also your own as the other side will now never take you seriously as you didn’t take them seriously either. Now if the other party’s consists od model human beings they might still see through your unhelpful rhetoric and see the kernel of truth in your words but honestly that’s not something you should ever gamble on and only paints you in a worse light.

If you want to discuss something, don’t start by proclaiming that there are problems in society that affect you and that there thus can’t be any problems for someone else. It’s toxic and has no place in any reasonable debate, and if you truly care about what you bring up you should take a long hard look at what you did and ask yourself if that’s really how you want to introduce your topic to people as chances are that it really shouldn’t be.

*sigh*
Anyway, this goes for everyone, including myself. Not just on this topic, but many others. There are lots of discussions to be had about things, and people denying other people’s experiences is really unhelpful and does nothing to solve your own problems

TL;DR: Don’t shut out or deny other’s opinions or experiences. Always be critical of yourself and others. Be nice.

P.S.: I don’t think Bill is a bad person, but it seems to me they don’t quite understand what exactly it is that they did wrong. Which isn’t really their fault, I guess, considering the media and the world in general seems to be full of people doing the exact same thing but worse. Bill was being fairly reasonable compared to some comments and even some actual reporters, but that in no way excuses his outright denial of the problems women face in society in spite of all evidence pointing to the contrary. I wouldn’t have posted this either if this hadn’t become so prevelant in society and left them be - but considering that it is what it is, I figured I might as well try to get some people to be more open to debate even if they will use it to advocate for things I disagree. Heck, I kinda want people to disagree with me because it’s always fun to see how people reason. (This is truly the end now)
 

I guess I'll have to go visit David alone then. Oh well. In the extremely unlikely event that the careers of FD's devs wont be ruined by this topic and noone will go to jail, in contrast with the prediction of the drama-queen you are defending, will you come here and say you misjudged the situation and I was right? Or will you just post another link to a hip fallacy site that apparently contains words you dont fully grasp? Both are fine with me, just curious. :)
 
Now, this does not mean that men cannot be treated badly in certain circumstances. But don't confuse the issues, and dismiss one because you have your own.

This is good advice, and it's something that everybody, including feminists and MRAs, would do well to remember.

It always baffles me why people who seek equality can't work together to fix all the problems rather than turning the whole thing into a competition. [sad]
 
This is good advice, and it's something that everybody, including feminists and MRAs, would do well to remember.

It always baffles me why people who seek equality can't work together to fix all the problems rather than turning the whole thing into a competition. [sad]

Its why I prefer to see myself not as a feminist, but a humanist. Sometimes you have to simplify matters though just to get stuff done. ;)
 
Hmm. In regards to the rather lengthy post above I’ll say this: you’re completely right that people have neglected the rights of men in certain areas, and pointing them out is very much your right and in fact I’d encourage you to do so as it opens discussion.

However, it is not respectable to hijack a conversation about the rights of a different group of people to one you belong to and to turn it into a conversation about you. Now I’m not saying that bringing something up in a discussion on what is essentially on the same topic, but from a different perspective is wrong BUT you went beyond that and proceeded to DENY the other party’s right to their claims WITHOUT any arguments against their points and did it solely to further your own agenda. It is not right for people to shut down conversation - something which you yourself seem to think! - and doing so is extremely counter productive not only to the other party’s cause but also your own as the other side will now never take you seriously as you didn’t take them seriously either. Now if the other party’s consists od model human beings they might still see through your unhelpful rhetoric and see the kernel of truth in your words but honestly that’s not something you should ever gamble on and only paints you in a worse light.

If you want to discuss something, don’t start by proclaiming that there are problems in society that affect you and that there thus can’t be any problems for someone else. It’s toxic and has no place in any reasonable debate, and if you truly care about what you bring up you should take a long hard look at what you did and ask yourself if that’s really how you want to introduce your topic to people as chances are that it really shouldn’t be.

*sigh*
Anyway, this goes for everyone, including myself. Not just on this topic, but many others. There are lots of discussions to be had about things, and people denying other people’s experiences is really unhelpful and does nothing to solve your own problems

TL;DR: Don’t shut out or deny other’s opinions or experiences. Always be critical of yourself and others. Be nice.

P.S.: I don’t think Bill is a bad person, but it seems to me they don’t quite understand what exactly it is that they did wrong. Which isn’t really their fault, I guess, considering the media and the world in general seems to be full of people doing the exact same thing but worse. Bill was being fairly reasonable compared to some comments and even some actual reporters, but that in no way excuses his outright denial of the problems women face in society in spite of all evidence pointing to the contrary. I wouldn’t have posted this either if this hadn’t become so prevelant in society and left them be - but considering that it is what it is, I figured I might as well try to get some people to be more open to debate even if they will use it to advocate for things I disagree. Heck, I kinda want people to disagree with me because it’s always fun to see how people reason. (This is truly the end now)

Funny, do you understand the concept of projection? Everything I posted was in reply to something else someone else has posted on this thread. I'm not making this about me, or hijacking the thread- that's already been done by the people I replied to. And now you're doing exactly what you claim I've 'done wrong'. You're making this all about your world view- even to the extent of accusing me of wrong think! ;)

If you really do want the topic to remain about Susie and her findings, fine, discuss them. But you seem to want to 'discuss' gender issues without allowing the other side to have their say. That's not a discussion, that's either lecturing or haranguing. As a wise person once said "Don’t shut out or deny other’s opinions or experiences. Always be critical of yourself and others. Be nice."

This is good advice, and it's something that everybody, including feminists and MRAs, would do well to remember.

It always baffles me why people who seek equality can't work together to fix all the problems rather than turning the whole thing into a competition. [sad]

Mainly because the ideology that must not be named has created most of the issues MRAs campaign against? For example, child custody has had decades of activism enshrining the mother first doctrine into Western law. Father's rights groups are routinely derided for attempting to challenge a tremendously unbalanced system. The Duluth model of domestic violence insists that the male is always the perpetrator, again directing legal procedures and support toward an unequal result. Education reforms are exclusively focused on improving female success, at the behest of activists, in spite of the astonishingly one sided education system already favouring females.
It's difficult to work together with someone who is ideologically commited to blaming you for all of societies ills, which is where the feminist obsession with patriarchy inevitably leads.

Its why I prefer to see myself not as a feminist, but a humanist. Sometimes you have to simplify matters though just to get stuff done. ;)

As do I, my dude. But almost every time I challenge a feminist's beliefs, the dreaded 'you MRA!' insult/compliment is brought out of the bag... :p
 
Hmm... I don’t know how you got the impression that I didn’t allow a (your?) side ro have a say seeing as I mentioned numerous times that I agreed with your points? I simply pointed out that your way of going about things was wrong since you seem to be denying that females are still “oppressed” (?) Not really the word to use, but considering females are the target of a lot of work place abuse, are looked down upon by some people, objectively still get paid less than men for literally the same job simply because they’re valued less than men for reasons??? (See the recent bbc controversy). I’m guessing there are a bunch of things I missed because I don’t have much knowledge on this topic and try to only talk about things I’m confident backing up. And the main point most reasonable feminists try to make nowadays is more on the social pressure and dangers unique to women.

But anyway. Just to sort of show my general point on your attitude towards this:

I'm hesitant to get involved in this thread as I can see it being locked again as people are clearly passionate on the subject.

All I will say is that while all the progress we've made has been great, we still don't have 100% equality between genders. The people who are so eager to dismiss this topic as nonsense and shut down the conversation should try to remember that.
You responded to this rather grounded, valid point (enough evidence to back their claims up - just google a bit and it should be proven - it’s just that easy to do), in a rather unique way?

You're completely correct, but probably not in the way you think you are. We certainly don't have equality between the genders, at least in the UK. Males have no reproductive rights. Males have far fewer rights in relationship breakdowns. Males have far less protection from violence perpetuated on them by females, none at all from female rapists. Males have fewer resources allocated to them in health care, in spite of living shorter, less healthy lives. Males are the vast majority of the homeless, while being the lowest priority for social housing. Males receive less support in education, in spite of having far fewer successes at any level within our education system. The STEM fields are outliers; females utterly dominate degree level achievement and are now the majority of students at UK universities. STEM will soon follow the rest- government funded initiatives like Athena SWAN, ECU, WISE, equatescotland and many others will make sure of that.
As for shutting down the conversation? There is no conversation. Any attempt to have one is shut down almost immediately by complaints from the ideologically pure and righteous. Take a look at the now sanitised other thread. It all looks very PC! ;)
My problem, specifically, is with your first part of your response to the comment you quoted (which I then quoted I guess). To put it mildly, you dismissed their core argument and then hijacked their wording to further dismiss the point they were trying to make, while attempting to make a case for yours. The rest of what you say is more or less fine? Though I somewhat doubt the severity of your claims that women now are the majority at universities and such, but debate is in part there to point such things out so you were completely in your right to do so. Just not in how you went about trying to make your point.

If you were unaware of that, that’s cool. Better, actually, because it probably means you’re not a malicious person and people can reasonably converse with you? Plenty of people DO intentionally behave this way in order to shut down the voices of feminists and just all women in general - thus literally becoming the problem they speak of, though mostly because the issue never went away and just hid under the cover of silence (figure of speach). However, now that I’ve tried (?) to point out how what you’re doing is unconstructive, it would be nice (wise? Useful? Better for you personally when trying to convey a message?) if you tried to pay a bit more attention to the way you formulate things, so you don’t shut down a conversation someone else is having in order for you to have your own. It creates a lot of resentment and just should be avoided, for your own sake really, because it’s because of behaviour precisely like what I’ve tried to point out here that voices like yours get lost.

I’m not sure where my previous post went wrong (possibly the emotional investment?) but I hope this clarifies my stance a bit.

p.s.: I noticed I completely ingored the latter part of the part of your post I quoted. You should probably avoid something like that as well in the future if you’re trying to make a serious point (I get that internet sarcasm has its place, but I don’t think a debate is one of those places).
 
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I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions around the former censored/locked thread

here's mine: you fabricated a big issue by presenting incomplete data and got booed for it by random strangers on the internet. i sincerely hope you have drawn some conclusions too.

that said, kudos for the correction.
 
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