ObsidianAnt: "PVP and Combat Logging Issue" (video)

xondk

X
GTuk said:
One of The Ant's longer videos, this time discussing the various points of view on the controversial, heated topics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAhf1QDp9N4
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It is a good video, though personally I don't think frontier is in a bind about the whole thing, Elite was clearly marketed as not being a PvP game and has been stated repeatedly, yes you can PvP in it, but mechanics do not revolve around PvP.
That said PvP still has a place in it definitely, but right now, combat logging is a reaction as I see it, to griefers and such, and for some reason PvP'ers are not the first one to jump to strangle griefers, or so it seems, personally if I was a dedicated PvP'er, instead of PvP/PvE/Whatever have fun, type, I would be first in line to strangle those that grief and attack people without reason, because you know that is just going to hurt PvP in general.
 

Sylow

Sylow
While i usually enjoy his videos, on this one i could make a long list on where he is wrong.
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Instead of doing that i would like to ooint out one big misconception: that the whole combat rebalance is based on PvP. There is a huge number of people caring for rebalance, giving feedback and trying to improve things, who never put a foot in open (any more). So why would they care for weapon balancing?
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The answer is quite simple, we like our game to be diverse. What good is the game if there is a number of theoretical options, when most of them are vastly inferior to one specific choice? Not only is such a "one to rule them all" boring, it's also a massive waste of development time. (Why ever to code and model all other things, if one of them is by far superior to the rest? )
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And on the whole open and PvPer discussion, it's what i say since a long time: true PvP players are no problem for either side. They look for a challenge, they know where to meet, they hone their skills fighting each other. They are far better pilots than the average player and also know that going for the average player is no challenge and thus no gain for them. It's the foul apples, those who built PvP ships, but lack either the balls or the ability to compete with the actual PvP players. To compensate for their shortcomings, they go out and interdict people in beginner and non-combat ships, as anything which is combat fitted is too threatening for them to engage. They are a minority, but it is them who give open and the term "PvP" the bad taste it has for many players.
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IndigoWyrd

IndigoWyrd
We know what combat logging is, why it makes PvP players cry, and that the overwhelming majority of non-PVP players simply don't care about this.

It's not an issue for me, as I don't engage in PvP, seldom venture into Open, am not involved in Powerplay, and have lost nearly all my sympathy for this because it has been posted and reposted and hashed and rehashed so many times now.

If you really want to prove your combat skills, meet your opponent in an anarchy system, in a stock sidewinder, then you'll see who the better pilot is, not who has the bigger budget and the blessings of RNGesus.
 

lineagerulz

lineagerulz
IndigoWyrd said:
We know what combat logging is, why it makes PvP players cry, and that the overwhelming majority of non-PVP players simply don't care about this.

It's not an issue for me, as I don't engage in PvP, seldom venture into Open, am not involved in Powerplay, and have lost nearly all my sympathy for this because it has been posted and reposted and hashed and rehashed so many times now.

If you really want to prove your combat skills, meet your opponent in an anarchy system, in a stock sidewinder, then you'll see who the better pilot is, not who has the bigger budget and the blessings of RNGesus.
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but I know griefers who combat log and i know griefers who are always in solo or PG when farming engineers , the pve guys want to be in open and let alone than my question is : why come in open at all? play with friends? Mobius , Meet new people ? forum or elite's discord .
 

Sylow

Sylow
lineagerulz said:
but I know griefers who combat log and i know griefers who are always in solo or PG when farming engineers , the pve guys want to be in open and let alone than my question is : why come in open at all? play with friends? Mobius , Meet new people ? forum or elite's discord .
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There probel with Möbius is that it relies on one single erson to operate, who by now had to buy a fourth account just to keep things running, as the private groups again and again reach the capacity limit. So while it is awesome that he does all this for the community, we also have to face two issues:
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1. There is always the risk that the one key player is fed up and stops working on this. Then all the work he did there is wasted. Currently FD very much relies on him doing their work. (And they appreciate it, they already in the past supported Möbius, so it seems to be welcome. )
2. It's not one big group, it's by now four groups, which creates a very artificial split among likeminded players.
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Thus one big group, officially supported instead of relying on a paying customer doing all the administration work, would be a welcome improvement and a way for FD to "futureproof" their playerbase.
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StuartGT

StuartGT
xondk said:
and for some reason PvP'ers are not the first one to jump to strangle griefers, or so it seems, personally if I was a dedicated PvP'er, instead of PvP/PvE/Whatever have fun, type, I would be first in line to strangle those that grief and attack people without reason, because you know that is just going to hurt PvP in general.
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That's precisely what some PvP Player Groups do, the largest of which being Adles Armada (they police the starter/newbie sector around Eravate). AA submit more Combat Logging tickets to Support than most (if not all) other Groups, and their targets are all PKers and newbie-griefers. They're a large enough PG that their named Coalition (of like-minded PGs) finished equal-2nd in the Rise To Power Wildcard - to EG Pilots who went on and won the overall competition, creating the new Power Yuri Grom.
 

xondk

X
lineagerulz said:
but I know griefers who combat log and i know griefers who are always in solo or PG when farming engineers , the pve guys want to be in open and let alone than my question is : why come in open at all? play with friends? Mobius , Meet new people ? forum or elite's discord .
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Play with 'everyone'?
And remember, everyone does not mean it would be 90% PvP.
Meet new people?
Meet random people unplanned?

The list goes on and on and on, unplanned stuff is some of the best that can happen, so yeah, that's why open even when not interested in PvP.
Though honestly, the question could be asked, "Why don't PvP'ers just make their own PvP private group? if they really are looking for a challenge they wouldn't be interested in fighting PvE people that aren't combat ready?"
 
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Sylow

Sylow
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What the heck did autocorrect do to my posting. It should have started "The problem with Möbius is..."
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xondk

X
CMDR METEGpeger said:
"pirating is fun and unpredictable" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8hAqFvJjTM
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Except........people are forgetting PvE piracy entirely, and acting like PvP piracy is the only piracy, which it is not, PvE piracy is a lot more challenging and demanding, and of course doesn't let you get abandoned goods you can sell everywhere, you know, actual piracy at least in my mind yet.......yeah..

Interdict->Demand->get cargo abandoned cargo and sell as if you owned it = piracy.
Interdict->Disable ship->Steal cargo while working to avoid the consequences->Sell at black market = not piracy?

Or so it seems of late
 

_Fissure

_Fissure
xondk said:
Except........people are forgetting PvE piracy entirely, and acting like PvP piracy is the only piracy, which it is not, PvE piracy is a lot more challenging and demanding, and of course doesn't let you get abandoned goods you can sell everywhere, you know, actual piracy at least in my mind yet.......yeah..

Interdict->Demand->get cargo abandoned cargo and sell as if you owned it = piracy.
Interdict->Disable ship->Steal cargo while working to avoid the consequences->Sell at black market = not piracy?

Or so it seems of late
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You don't get these kind of interactions with PvE piracy.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/242299-Fun-and-Memories-at-the-CG-A-Pirate-s-Tale

Seriously, half the people posting here sound like they didn't even watch the video.
 
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iFred

I
Well, I like ObsidianAnt and especially his videos - but lets say... He was way more neutral in his other videos.

I think the bulk of the players are still more PVE- than PVP based.

And yes, there are idiots in Open - always. Its always a very very small part of the players - we know it. But ONE is enough to make people "flee" into the private modes. And from my personal point of view after almost 25 weeks ingame time: I would not have spent so much time when I was forced to play in Open only. And I know other players who feel exactly the same.

ObsidianAnt is also right in observing the actual developement of Elite. Nothing for Traders, Exploration, and a lot of stuff for Combat. Yes, combat is an essential part of the game, but forcing people to engineer 24/7 instaed of simply enjoying the game. So the tactics from FD are: Keep things changing so players have to adapt.
 

Cageman

Cageman
Yeah... Open play should have two subgroups; PvP and PvE.

PvP = Attack another player; do whatever you like; gank, greif etc, etc.
PvE = Kill another player and get baned from that group.

That should make all playstyles be able to experience Open.

EDIT: Since proper PvP:ers and Pirates exists, I changed the PvE rule to Kill, not Attack. This would allow Pirates to do their thing as well.
 
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Ziljan

Ziljan
xondk said:
Play with 'everyone'?
And remember, everyone does not mean it would be 90% PvP.
Meet new people?
Meet random people unplanned?

The list goes on and on and on, unplanned stuff is some of the best that can happen, so yeah, that's why open even when not interested in PvP.
Though honestly, the question could be asked, "Why don't PvP'ers just make their own PvP private group? if they really are looking for a challenge they wouldn't be interested in fighting PvE people that aren't combat ready?"
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You answered your last question with your first statement. You can't have an unplanned PVP encounter in a PVP private group. The odds against it are astronomical.
 

StuartGT

StuartGT
Cagman said:
Yeah... Open play should have two subgroups; PvP and PvE.

PvP = Attack another player; do whatever you like; gank, greif etc, etc.
PvE = Attack another player without his/hers concent get a ban from that group.

That should make all playstyles be able to experience Open.
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You just described Mobius PvE
 

NeilF

NeilF
They need to fix Mindless Destruction before addressing Combat Logging - Eg: A hefty penalty for the destruction of a Pilots Federation member illegally.

They need to flesh out Piracy before addressing Combat Logging - Eg: It should be about obtaining cargo, not an excuse to destroy ships.

They need for the game to actually offer orchestrated (legal) PvP mechanics/tasks before addressing Combat Logging - eg: Why is it after two years, we still have no progress in PvP (and PvE) missions/tasks? Why are we not seeing more complex missions and tasks, specifically within Powerplay, but also in missions, and CGs? Why are we not able to undertake a missions in a Wing of CMDRs/NPC, and face a Wing of CMDRs/NPCs?



If they penalise combat logging before getting the rest of the game in order, it'll damage the game IMHO.


I've witnessed far more toxic mindless interdiction and destruction than I've encountered combat logging (eg: while I've been pirating)... Which needs addressing first and most urgently?
 
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xondk

X
_Fissure said:
You don't get these kind of interactions with PvE piracy.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/242299-Fun-and-Memories-at-the-CG-A-Pirate-s-Tale

Seriously, half the people posting here sound like they didn't even watch the video.
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I watched the video, and I think you missed my point, but yes you are correct, you cannot have unplanned stuff happen with other players without another player, very true, but also note that this is the same reason people play in open, all the unplanned none pvp things that can happen, both are great.

Ziljan said:
You answered your last question with your first statement. You can't have an unplanned PVP encounter in a PVP private group. The odds against it are astronomical.
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And to continue answering from above.

Unfortunately if these kinds of instances were the norm, I seriously doubt we would have as big an issue with 'combat logging' as we do now, or at least how it is represented by those that complain about it, so yeah open is great because anything can happen, unfortunately there are those that aren't interested in those encounters but rather just want to destroy others, and apparently there are enough of those that people rather combat log instantly then risk finding out who has interdicted them.

That said though PvE piracy is also still vastly underestimated, especially when piracy people complain on forum about the payout of piracy or similar, completely ignoring PvE. And that is why I brought it up.

If PvP piracy was generally interactions with other players that left the victim poorer but with a good experience, I think the situation would be vastly different then it is now.
 
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