ObsidianAnt: "PVP and Combat Logging Issue" (video)

[Mephane]

PvE = Kill another player and get baned from that group.

No. First and foremost it would open a new way of griefing, suicide into the path of someone speeding at a station, fly into the line of fire of someone at an RES, bait a newbie into attacking by pretending to be an NPC (a new player with no prior knowledge may not yet know what a hollow blip means), just to get them banned from PvE.

Imho a proper PvE mode should have all PvP damage disabled, this includes weapons and ramming, but keep the legal system intact, e.g. shoot a clean CMDR in Open PvE and you get wanted, but the other player doesn't actually get damaged. Thus you still have to watch where you shoot.

 

[CptSiddy]

Personally I feel it's poor design choices that have led here

It is not "poor". It is deliberate choices. The only "poor" thing that FD did was not clearly STATE this, and result was that people got wrong impressions of what to expect.

ED was never intended to be a EVE with cockpits.

It was classic Elite with a facelift. And a hint of co-op with friends. Every design choice, from the procedurally generated galaxy to a p2p system screams that this game was NEVER intended as a MMO or a PVP game to begin with.

If anyone in here has played JumpGate, then you will see the stark contrast of a PROPER space cockpit MMO and this.... thing we call Elite.

 

[dynamicbob]

lets give them some time to get multicrew and networking sorted before we go on about pvp

 

[Thetele]

It is a good video, though personally I don't think frontier is in a bind about the whole thing, Elite was clearly marketed as not being a PvP game and has been stated repeatedly, yes you can PvP in it, but mechanics do not revolve around PvP.
That said PvP still has a place in it definitely, but right now, combat logging is a reaction as I see it, to griefers and such, and for some reason PvP'ers are not the first one to jump to strangle griefers, or so it seems, personally if I was a dedicated PvP'er, instead of PvP/PvE/Whatever have fun, type, I would be first in line to strangle those that grief and attack people without reason, because you know that is just going to hurt PvP in general.

Some one has missed the official marketing for elite that has been on their site describing combat:

COMBAT

Help rebels overthrow an oppressive regime, put down a rebellion, or just hunt other Commanders. Your combat skills will keep you safe in a cutthroat galaxy.

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/

And

Arm yourself. It's a cutthroat galaxy out there, and you'll need combat skills to survive.

Why buy cargo when you can pirate it from a fellow Commander? Why explore distant systems when the data can be stolen? The galaxy is filled with vulnerable pilots, but The Pilots Federation takes care of its own.

Commanders who go rogue will accrue a bounty from The Pilots Federation, making them fair game for a would-be bounty hunter in Elite Dangerous' connected galaxy.

Combat, alone with Trading, Exploration and CQC offers progression to the rank of Elite. Rogue Commanders, assassination missions, or paid wetwork from one (or all) the galactic superpowers can bring wealth and respect.

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/combat

Doesn't mention PVE at all.

Their official stuff advertise PVP and even data piracy that isn't even feature we have.

The game is marketed as pvp game.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

Good video, but it leaves a few interesting aspects open.

I actually have a PvP background, played QW, Q3A/RA in clans and leagues for several years, nine years of Eve in PvP corps.

I can see how combat loging in Quake would be a problem. After all killing the enemy is the goal of the game.
It was a problem in Eve for the larger portion I've played it as it's a persistant universe without parallel instancing, solo or group modes. There were plenty of valid ingame reasons to kill, be it bounty, mercenary contracts for denial of ressources, territorial wars or just loot drops... the list goes on and on.

In ED these reasons don't exist. It's obviously not quake, so kill-count is irrelevant. Denial of ressources/access can't be enforced due to instancing, group and solo. There's no profit to be made as the bounty system is nerfed and ships don't drop their modules or cargo after destruction. There is no way to control territory for players, so that reason doesn't apply.
Congratulations - in their effort to discourage PvP and emphasize the coop effort, FD took so many precautions to make PvP in ED entirely pointless this PvPer doesn't PvP in ED.

So why do PvPers get mad when someone combat-logs? They want competition as an end in itself - okay, not my cup of tea but people are different.
If someone Clogs, they won - congrats I guess. The only difference is the lack of a few explosion sprites and x amount of Cr deducted from the other CMDRs account. How is that relevant to the aggressor?

It doesn't benefit him in any way and doesn't change anything about the fact that he won the engagement (be it due to skill or because of using 4 min-maxed FDLs against a single Asp).

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

Some one has missed the official marketing for elite that has been on their site describing combat:

COMBAT

Help rebels overthrow an oppressive regime, put down a rebellion, or just hunt other Commanders. Your combat skills will keep you safe in a cutthroat galaxy.

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/

And

Arm yourself. It's a cutthroat galaxy out there, and you'll need combat skills to survive.

Why buy cargo when you can pirate it from a fellow Commander? Why explore distant systems when the data can be stolen? The galaxy is filled with vulnerable pilots, but The Pilots Federation takes care of its own.

Commanders who go rogue will accrue a bounty from The Pilots Federation, making them fair game for a would-be bounty hunter in Elite Dangerous' connected galaxy.

Combat, alone with Trading, Exploration and CQC offers progression to the rank of Elite. Rogue Commanders, assassination missions, or paid wetwork from one (or all) the galactic superpowers can bring wealth and respect.

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/combat

Doesn't mention PVE at all.

Their official stuff advertise PVP and even data piracy that isn't even feature we have.

The game is marketed as pvp game.

To be fair, you are only quoting from the section headed "Combat". There are two other sections there that don´t mention shooting and combat is not even the first one.

Taken as a whole, the marketing page looks like it is mostly a PVE game but that PvP is definitely available.

 

[Kkronnoss]

Great vid, well thought out and articulated. Always love a good objective point of view.

 

[DrakeAurum]

So why do PvPers get mad when someone combat-logs? They want competition as an end in itself - okay, not my cup of tea but people are different.
If someone Clogs, they won - congrats I guess. The only difference is the lack of a few explosion sprites and x amount of Cr deducted from the other CMDRs account. How is that relevant to the aggressor?

It doesn't benefit him in any way and doesn't change anything about the fact that he won the engagement (be it due to skill or because of using 4 min-maxed FDLs against a single Asp).

Simply put, it doesn't feel like a win for them unless someone else loses.

 

[verminstar]

Another thread about this non issue...this really be kept in a pvp only subforum because they the only ones affected by this. Instead, this rubbish gets posted all over the forums by a very small minority of players like iys a huge deal...when its really not. Games got bigger issue than some pvp gripe about how their victims have a means of escaping the griefers. No sympathy fer them whatsoever...if I played in open and was about to get griefed fer no reason, I gotta say, I would be very tempted to cl whilst laughing my bollox off at the irony of mining the salty tears from another salt miner. Not like FD are gonna do anything about it after all.

 

[Cosmo]

Yeah... Open play should have two subgroups; PvP and PvE.

PvP = Attack another player; do whatever you like; gank, greif etc, etc.
PvE = Kill another player and get baned from that group.

That should make all playstyles be able to experience Open.

No, for example Eve Online only has 1 mode, everyone plays together in OPEN. This keeps everyone in one world and increases multiplayer interaction and cooperation. ED already has too many different game modes that causes severe fragmentation among players.

If you prefer PVE then join a wing and better yet add GUILDS that escort, protect PVE oriented players in open.

If they add more and more different modes the whole dwindling player base will become so small and fractured that we won't encounter other players for months. There'd be too little incentive to be an escort or join forces for mutual benefit. In effect Open and massively multiplayer in ED would lose most of its meaning.

Open is not meant to be a safe-space. Space is very dark and dangerous. If you fear for your safety play with other people or stay in high security systems. If you are so afraid of PVP encounters then you're unfit to explore space which would eat you alive with all the hidden dangers.

 

[Anopheles]

Another thread about this non issue...this really be kept in a pvp only subforum because they the only ones affected by this. Instead, this rubbish gets posted all over the forums by a very small minority of players like iys a huge deal...when its really not. Games got bigger issue than some pvp gripe about how their victims have a means of escaping the griefers. No sympathy fer them whatsoever...if I played in open and was about to get griefed fer no reason, I gotta say, I would be very tempted to cl whilst laughing my bollox off at the irony of mining the salty tears from another salt miner. Not like FD are gonna do anything about it after all.

The fact you think all PVP'ers as griefers and can't be bothered to learn the game enough to fly defensively, trade conservatively or avoid pvp makes your opinion fairly worthless.

 

[markuslig]

wow who cares!? so a player logs, dont have to cry cuz you didnt get to bag another player, bunch of kids, lol

 

[verminstar]

The fact you think all PVP'ers as griefers and can't be bothered to learn the game enough to fly defensively, trade conservatively or avoid pvp makes your opinion fairly worthless.

Actually I ase my perceptions of personal experience. If it was genuine role play piracy, I would have enjoyed that and played alone...but it wasnt...just ganking fer the sake of ganking. In such a case, I would have absolutely no hesitation in using any mechanic in the game to prevent that.

Not fer one minute do I have anything against genuine pvprs playing along with the game...I would genuinely not log and play along. Believe what ye want, I really couldnt care less...my opinion matters to me and your opinion doesnt...so I guess we even now.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I should have focused more on this in the video - you are completely right. My conclusion would have been the same though - that Frontier have created an environment which has enabled this conflict of interests, and the problem isn't so much with the players (because there are always going to be different types of players, and there are always going to be idiots). Personally I feel it's poor design choices that have led here, and that the fix needed is far bigger than simply band-aiding combat-logging...

Excellent video. High in observation, low in judgment.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Games got bigger issue than some pvp gripe about how their victims have a means of escaping the griefers. No sympathy fer them whatsoever...

The fact you think all PVP'ers as griefers and can't be bothered to learn the game enough to fly defensively, trade conservatively or avoid pvp makes your opinion fairly worthless.

You two make an excellent illustration of OA's video.

The disconnect between playing styles where both sides have a cookie cutter, generalised picture of the other side. Instead of actual exchange of ideas, there's a fortification of these impressions going on. You know what this reminds me off? The American Elections. Bear with me

This is not my point, it's Jon Stewart's. He observed how Americans in every day life cooperate no matter what their political alignment is. They strife for the same things in life and recognize that working together is the best way to accomplish these things. Then when elections come around, the person you shared sentiments and motivators with all of a sudden become a moron who doesn't know what's good for him because he's supporting the other party. In this the person did not change, but the perspective and the filter did. And while the former perspective came from experience and actual contact with the other person, the latter is imaginary and therefor much stronger since it can be molded exactly how you want your opponent to react. No exchange of ideas take place and the battle positions become fortified. The American Politics feeding of this mechanism then strives to emulate it, they start to create policy based on it. Long story short, everyone goes bonkers.

Now check out those quotes again. No sympathy for someone else's gripe, but that doesn't matter, his opinion is worthless anyway. Are we having fun yet? Scream if you wanna go faster! [hotas]

@verminstar, Anopheles: I could have picked a hundred other examples, some from me as well since I'm just as big a hypocrite. Please don't take this as a personal snipe.

Thought of one:
I don't care about Combat Logging. I care about planet colours. A lot. It's my self-created content. Exploring doesn't mean much in terms of gameplay, but finding beautiful planet vistas to trundle on makes up for a lot. Now lately planet colours have changes to brown and my little spiel went out of the window. Posted a thread, a few sympathetic replies but no big fuss. People on the whole don't care that much. But I do. This is frustrating.

People care about Combat Logging. But I and many don't. I imagine that would be frustrating. So I should care about Combat Logging if I'm frustrated when people don't care about planet colours. But I don't. Which makes me a hypocrite for being frustrated.

 

[AveCandido]

No, for example Eve Online only has 1 mode, everyone plays together in OPEN. This keeps everyone in one world and increases multiplayer interaction and cooperation. ED already has too many different game modes that causes severe fragmentation among players.

EVE many years playing

Is paid every month 20 dollars, or coin of the game, but before there were more than 1 million players now less than 500,000 and down. The biggest drop of players 2015 when a clan blockade and pirate nerfea many in reason alone for fun.
From 30,000 daily players to less than 20,000 today

Every year fewer players in EVE

That's why there are clans that spoil a game when they are online.

ORIGINAL

EVE muchos años jugando

se paga todos los meses 20 dolares, o con moneda del juego, pero antes habia mas de 1 millon de jugadores ahora menos de 500.000 y bajando. la mayor caida de jugadores 2015 cuando un clan bloqueo y nerfea pirata a muchos in motivo solo por diversion.
de 30.000 players diarios a menos de 20.000 a dia de hoy

cada año menos players en EVE

Por eso hay clanes que estropean un juego cuando estan online.

 

[Cupcake]

It is a good video, though personally I don't think frontier is in a bind about the whole thing, Elite was clearly marketed as not being a PvP game and has been stated repeatedly, yes you can PvP in it, but mechanics do not revolve around PvP.
That said PvP still has a place in it definitely, but right now, combat logging is a reaction as I see it, to griefers and such, and for some reason PvP'ers are not the first one to jump to strangle griefers, or so it seems, personally if I was a dedicated PvP'er, instead of PvP/PvE/Whatever have fun, type, I would be first in line to strangle those that grief and attack people without reason, because you know that is just going to hurt PvP in general.

There lies the issue my friend, 99% of these griefing attacks are not "griefing" ,its just people using existing game mechanics, and the logging is clearly cheating. I blame the players who want their cake and eat it too, you cannot have a fully open mode without encountering idiots, but cheating isnt the answer. personally I think loggers should be banned, period, no shadow mode, ban em and shame em.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… I blame the players who want their cake and eat it too, …

What would anybody want to do with a cake other than eating it? Look at it?
Without easting the cake it doesn't make sense to have it.

[weird]

 

[verminstar]

You two make an excellent illustration of OA's video.

The disconnect between playing styles where both sides have a cookie cutter, generalised picture of the other side. Instead of actual exchange of ideas, there's a fortification of these impressions going on. You know what this reminds me off? The American Elections. Bear with me

This is not my point, it's Jon Stewart's. He observed how Americans in every day life cooperate no matter what their political alignment is. They strife for the same things in life and recognize that working together is the best way to accomplish these things. Then when elections come around, the person you shared sentiments and motivators with all of a sudden become a moron who doesn't know what's good for him because he's supporting the other party. In this the person did not change, but the perspective and the filter did. And while the former perspective came from experience and actual contact with the other person, the latter is imaginary and therefor much stronger since it can be molded exactly how you want your opponent to react. No exchange of ideas take place and the battle positions become fortified. The American Politics feeding of this mechanism then strives to emulate it, they start to create policy based on it. Long story short, everyone goes bonkers.

Now check out those quotes again. No sympathy for someone else's gripe, but that doesn't matter, his opinion is worthless anyway. Are we having fun yet? Scream if you wanna go faster! [hotas]

@verminstar, Anopheles: I could have picked a hundred other examples, some from me as well since I'm just as big a hypocrite. Please don't take this as a personal snipe.

I get yer point, really I do...cant add rep cos ye already got some and I like to spread it around a bit...and being so close to ye is making me itch anyway.

I did expand somewhat and say that I really dont see pvprs as black and white griefers...I know that the griefing aspect makes up the minority of open players, but all it takes are a few bad apples to spoil the entire barrel. Thats what I see happening here...those few bad apples dont like of losing a kill hence they make the forums into a combat logging white wash. In truth, its making a bad situation worse, not better.

Bottom line being that if it was genuine pvp and not just pointless ganking fer jollies, I would support that...but its not, is it? Not to mention the part where the most prolific loggers are griefers themselves who have made a name fer themselves by logging. So basically, its a pvp only issue...and the game is already broken because of them...how much more broken does it have to get before they stop ruining this game fer everyone?

Anyway...there are very few here who could get away with asking me to back off...but I will and only because ye asked nicely. If anyone else had asked, my reaction would not have been as tactful...Ill go back to admiring myself in the mirror now.

Gotta stay away from political topics...never ends well fer me cos I sorta support more hardline attitudes and beliefs. Must be the anarchist in me...must resist.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I get yer point, really I do...cant add rep cos ye already got some and I like to spread it around a bit...and being so close to ye is making me itch anyway.

Same situation. We should stop seeing like this.

I did expand somewhat and say that I really dont see pvprs as black and white griefers...I know that the griefing aspect makes up the minority of open players, but all it takes are a few bad apples to spoil the entire barrel. Thats what I see happening here...those few bad apples dont like of losing a kill hence they make the forums into a combat logging white wash. In truth, its making a bad situation worse, not better.

Bottom line being that if it was genuine pvp and not just pointless ganking fer jollies, I would support that...but its not, is it? Not to mention the part where the most prolific loggers are griefers themselves who have made a name fer themselves by logging. So basically, its a pvp only issue...and the game is already broken because of them...how much more broken does it have to get before they stop ruining this game fer everyone?

Anyway...there are very few here who could get away with asking me to back off...but I will and only because ye asked nicely. If anyone else had asked, my reaction would not have been as tactful...Ill go back to admiring myself in the mirror now.

Whenever I find a way to listen to my own advice, I'll let you know so we both can benefit from it

I don't care about Combat Logging. I care about planet colours. A lot. It's my self-created content. Exploring doesn't mean much in terms of gameplay, but finding beautiful planet vistas to trundle on makes up for a lot. Now lately planet colours have changes to brown and my little spiel went out of the window. Posted a thread, a few sympathetic replies but no big fuss. People on the whole don't care that much. But I do. This is frustrating.

People care about Combat Logging. But I and many don't. I imagine that would be frustrating. So I should care about Combat Logging if I'm frustrated when people don't care about planet colours. But I don't. Which makes me a hypocrite for being frustrated.