I’m sure you know how to survive that.
On "grinding" without grind.
- Thread starter DaveB
- Start date
I’m sure you know how to survive that.
This is something I can't help but disagree with on some "gameplay design 101" level. I'll try to illustrate why the current model is bad via an example.
- you start off in a Sidewinder (don't we all
)- the Freewinder isn't the best money-making ship, but it manages to get you some credits; the income is slow however and to get the next ship (let's say... the Cobra?) you need X time
- You got the Cobra! A much better ship than the Freewinder, but you need to outfit it; but it also makes more money than the previous ship and you manage to fully equip in X time again
- let's assume you want an Asp Explorer next; with the increased monetary gains of your A-rated Cobra it takes you more or less X units of time yet again
- this process of each new, bigger ship, continues; each ship taking approximately X units of time to grind money for - it's not "more work", per say, but because you have a bigger and bigger ships, the income increases
- you get the biggest ship, your income should no longer matter at this point - getting another big ship should be fairly easy, as should any other ship you may have missed along the way
Now, the above is the "perfect world" example of how things in a game should look (again, more or less and this is obviously simplified). But in ED prices scale up, while income gains scale down (excluding some trickery here, like stacking passenger missions from a certain location). The end result is that while getting a new ship feels just right at first, the pace slows down considerably once you reach mid-sized ships. I'd argue that a well designed game would have players switch or upgrade ships in that mystical X time unit, more or less. What X should be is a different discussion. There might be some variation (for example, you MAY want players to transition from the initial ship to the next a bit faster), but not to the degrees we have in ED.
To summarize: yes, if you were to earn enough credits for the biggest ship using the smallest ship, it should take time (probably absurd amounts, even). And playing "properly" from smallest to largest should also take time. But the player shouldn't feel like the pace is ever slower and slower... This is some weird, exponential MMO model designed for grinding - sort of understandable in MMOs because that's how MMOs make money (people keep grinding and paying for a monthly sub). ED isn't an MMO (not in the strictest sense), so that's a bit of a miss here, IMO.
Last edited:
I've been out on the Guardian sites quite a few times, I've collected stuff and left when I got a bit bored
Thing is im looking forward to going back out that way again, Im glad I've still got stuff to unlock because it's very different from doing stuff in the bubble
I've also been guilty of grinding to get to a certain goal - It's inevitable that you'll get stuck in a mindset of "right, lets just get this done.. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself is it worth it? do I really need a turreted shard cannon or is it just because I know its there
play the game anyway you want - theres no wrong way.
Play however you like
Thing is im looking forward to going back out that way again, Im glad I've still got stuff to unlock because it's very different from doing stuff in the bubble
I've also been guilty of grinding to get to a certain goal - It's inevitable that you'll get stuck in a mindset of "right, lets just get this done.. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself is it worth it? do I really need a turreted shard cannon or is it just because I know its there
play the game anyway you want - theres no wrong way.
Play however you like
Bob Lighthouse
Banned
Have you tried a stone molcajete/tejolote?
How about a ceramic suribachi/wooden surikogi?
By just splitting the repetitive task, you are merely using a workaround. Because whatever you do, you will have to use the exact same game mechanic in order to unlock Guardian assets. The task is completely disjointed (especially by location) from other aspects of the game. So you "don't come around the ruins naturally".
+1 and to you other posts as well.
Time should not be the only factor, it should involve also skill. I mean being a data courier makes you become a prince in the Empire - it is absurd! Why not have some really specific missions tied in order to rank up, that have an actual difficulty curve. And yes, they should be so hard that not everyone is able to do them (at once). That way the ranks would actually mean something.
Extra difficult (chained) missions for immediate rank-ups after completion would certainly be interesting, but if unavailable to those that have already max rank, would be a bit of a waste. And they need to be as unexploitable as possible.
This is probably what being in a cult is like.
"its not bad if you just pretend it's all good".
Its a grind. There is nothing in this game to get aside from ships. There is nothing to do aside from getting credits, getting the best ship and then doing something with this ship like exploration or combat.
Thats it.
Fdev gave up on this game years ago.
"its not bad if you just pretend it's all good".
Its a grind. There is nothing in this game to get aside from ships. There is nothing to do aside from getting credits, getting the best ship and then doing something with this ship like exploration or combat.
Thats it.
Fdev gave up on this game years ago.
Elite was designed for players to dawdle around space aimlessly and accumulate progress over time as everything gives a bit here and there. The issue with this is that aimless gameplay gets old fast and therefore players like to set themselves a goal. Achieving this goal then becomes the driving factor out of which the play the game and as typical of humans they optimize their approach to get them to this goal faster. This is why they end up grinding - it's the most efficient way to get somewhere specific. The game forces them down limited activity choices to achieve thier goals, too.
The flaw with Elite is ultimately that it doesn't have diverse and emergent gameplay that rewards one for any activity equally. You can't just do anything to get closer to your goal - you need to do very specific tasks to get specific reputation, materials or credits. This takes the freedom out of player agenda and limits it down specific alleyways which one is forced to grind.
You can see a nicely visualized example of this in engineers. Half of them are useless as they have low-grade recipes only but you want to get to the G5 ones. To get to those you have to move through engineers you don't care about and do incredibly specific tasks for them, such as acquiring a certain amount of a trade good that only spawns in limited quanity in a single station in the entire galaxy or mine a specific mineral/metal only. What is a player supposed to do but grind this activity to move past it? If it were a generic activity like "bring me 1000 tons of trade goods" or "bring me 1000 mined minerals/metals" one would at least get some choice of where and how to do it.
If you are more inclined to look at generic gameplay activities in themselves, such as bounty hunting or farming combat bonds in a conflict zone, you will surely realize that doing them for 5 minutes lets a player see all the content there is and then it's just repetition of the same simple thing for hours (or days) to an end to get more bounty vouchers or combat bonds. This is such a simplistic gameplay loop that the player does have to grind. There's just no emergence and variation to it - the combat zone never changes, the impact from bounty hunting is never felt.
People like to mention that Elite is not a race and there's no reward for getting to something faster rather than later but the game has plenty of vertical progression that one has to go through to get a viable shot at an activity. This forces players to grind their way "up" to get to the level at which an activity becomes doable - or rewarding enough to make it sustainable. This very approach to content gating in combination with the aforementioned lack of emergent and diverse gameplay makes grind necessary and very much perceptible in the eyes of the player.
The flaw with Elite is ultimately that it doesn't have diverse and emergent gameplay that rewards one for any activity equally. You can't just do anything to get closer to your goal - you need to do very specific tasks to get specific reputation, materials or credits. This takes the freedom out of player agenda and limits it down specific alleyways which one is forced to grind.
You can see a nicely visualized example of this in engineers. Half of them are useless as they have low-grade recipes only but you want to get to the G5 ones. To get to those you have to move through engineers you don't care about and do incredibly specific tasks for them, such as acquiring a certain amount of a trade good that only spawns in limited quanity in a single station in the entire galaxy or mine a specific mineral/metal only. What is a player supposed to do but grind this activity to move past it? If it were a generic activity like "bring me 1000 tons of trade goods" or "bring me 1000 mined minerals/metals" one would at least get some choice of where and how to do it.
If you are more inclined to look at generic gameplay activities in themselves, such as bounty hunting or farming combat bonds in a conflict zone, you will surely realize that doing them for 5 minutes lets a player see all the content there is and then it's just repetition of the same simple thing for hours (or days) to an end to get more bounty vouchers or combat bonds. This is such a simplistic gameplay loop that the player does have to grind. There's just no emergence and variation to it - the combat zone never changes, the impact from bounty hunting is never felt.
People like to mention that Elite is not a race and there's no reward for getting to something faster rather than later but the game has plenty of vertical progression that one has to go through to get a viable shot at an activity. This forces players to grind their way "up" to get to the level at which an activity becomes doable - or rewarding enough to make it sustainable. This very approach to content gating in combination with the aforementioned lack of emergent and diverse gameplay makes grind necessary and very much perceptible in the eyes of the player.
Yep, absolutely.
I don't mind the idea of people being able to achieve everything eventually but those ways (often currently the only way of achieving a thing) should be the "fall-back" method rather than the go-to method.
To use the naval rank-grind as an example, you might be given the opportunity to help a navy win a war and, if you succeed, it immediately promotes you to the next rank.
That would be seriously difficult, though, so you'd also have the option of completing a variety of less challenging missions to achieve the same result.
Those missions wouldn't be a walkover either, though, so you'd also have the option of plugging away at a gazillion data-delivery or surface-scan missions to achieve the same result... eventually.
I do think FDev have made a couple of mistakes, by doing things like putting engineers in rank-locked systems, because that encourages people to grind to gain access to those things.
I'm fine with the idea of the ships being rank-locked, though, because (off the top of my head) I don't think any of the navy ships are uniquely suited to anything.
Nobody needs a Cutter to go trading or a Corvette to do combat.
Overall, the big "grinds" should be (and usually are) things that you can just keep in the back of your mind and know you're gradually achieving as you enjoy the rest of the game.
It seems like some people just refuse to believe this while they're stiving to achieve those things.
And that's what keeps me coming back.
I was hoping FDev would fix or rather complete that elements in Beyond, but instead they added more of the same, like the one-dimensional Guardian grind. Or how about some real multiplayer PvE content.And this is, unfortunately, what makes me loose faith in FDev.
I would "grind", but I keep getting distracted by wanting to do other things.
I set myself up in my go-to Lucrative Mission Station, and say to myself, right, I'm going to run these missions until I can afford a [Mamba / Big Mining Ship / Whatever] and/or have the rank to buy [Whatever]...
...Then I find I want to go rescuing people from a burning station, or poke at the Guardian ruins for a bit, or something. This time I'm going to have to get ready to go and survey the one ELW that has my name on it already when 3.3 comes out.
So, I must be doing something wrong, I'm clearly supposed to be getting all bitter and miserable so that I can complain about stuff, all this 'having fun' stuff keeps getting in the way! That's not how this game is played, right?
I set myself up in my go-to Lucrative Mission Station, and say to myself, right, I'm going to run these missions until I can afford a [Mamba / Big Mining Ship / Whatever] and/or have the rank to buy [Whatever]...
...Then I find I want to go rescuing people from a burning station, or poke at the Guardian ruins for a bit, or something. This time I'm going to have to get ready to go and survey the one ELW that has my name on it already when 3.3 comes out.
So, I must be doing something wrong, I'm clearly supposed to be getting all bitter and miserable so that I can complain about stuff, all this 'having fun' stuff keeps getting in the way! That's not how this game is played, right?
I would "grind", but I keep getting distracted by wanting to do other things.
I set myself up in my go-to Lucrative Mission Station, and say to myself, right, I'm going to run these missions until I can afford a [Mamba / Big Mining Ship / Whatever] and/or have the rank to buy [Whatever]...
...Then I find I want to go rescuing people from a burning station, or poke at the Guardian ruins for a bit, or something. This time I'm going to have to get ready to go and survey the one ELW that has my name on it already when 3.3 comes out.
So, I must be doing something wrong, I'm clearly supposed to be getting all bitter and miserable so that I can complain about stuff, all this 'having fun' stuff keeps getting in the way! That's not how this game is played, right?
Haaa!! Yep, you have the same affliction as me. Elite Objective Attention Disorder or EOAD. Commonly caused by too many fun things to do and not enough time in the day to do them. I have 6 ships, each set up for a dedicated use and I want 2 more so I'm sure my EOAD will only increase. There should be a scientific study on this to determine if it a treatable condition.
I agree with most of what OP said. However, like many others, the first thing that came to mind was the guardian stuff (and engineers to a lesser extent). I recently decided to try and unlock some SLFs. I liked the trident and the lance, so I wanted to focus on those. I really enjoyed going to the different sites and appreciated how they all functioned differently. i felt like a space Nicholas Cage as I chased down the artifacts.
However, i checked the required mats on INARA while I was doing it, and that is when the experience fell apart a little. I like the idea of going to beacons, ruins, and sites. What I dont understand is why I need 26 data packets, and it is frustrating to have it RNG controlled, so i was only getting 0-2 for every obelisk that I scanned.
I think that they would be better off putting more varied locations to get the mats, but reduce the overall number. As it stands, one would have to visit ~7-10 guardian sites to get the required mats without relogging. It turns a fun discovery thing into a bit of a drag. Whats the benefit of collecting 26 data packets vs 10. I understand that the items dont need to be given away, but the numbers could be reigned in a little. It can feel like digging a trench with a spoon.
In regard to credits, i have never felt much grind there. i usually have a target or goal and then find schemes to meet that end. When i was a fresh CMDR I made a couple runs to Colonia after stacking data delivery missions at 2-3 mil each. This was fun because It was a long trek that felt worthwhile with a big reward(50-60 mil).
As for Navy rank, it seems really slow. I have a Corvette and it took me a week of flying missions in Ceos and Sothis ( after the nerf) to make the rank. I agree with some of the posts here in that the Navy rank should be tied more to missions/ longer campaigns. They should not be tied to running the same missions but for rep.
TL;DR- I think there needs to be a balancing pass on the guardian stuff and naval ranks because it can seem like eating cereal with a toothpick.
However, i checked the required mats on INARA while I was doing it, and that is when the experience fell apart a little. I like the idea of going to beacons, ruins, and sites. What I dont understand is why I need 26 data packets, and it is frustrating to have it RNG controlled, so i was only getting 0-2 for every obelisk that I scanned.
I think that they would be better off putting more varied locations to get the mats, but reduce the overall number. As it stands, one would have to visit ~7-10 guardian sites to get the required mats without relogging. It turns a fun discovery thing into a bit of a drag. Whats the benefit of collecting 26 data packets vs 10. I understand that the items dont need to be given away, but the numbers could be reigned in a little. It can feel like digging a trench with a spoon.
In regard to credits, i have never felt much grind there. i usually have a target or goal and then find schemes to meet that end. When i was a fresh CMDR I made a couple runs to Colonia after stacking data delivery missions at 2-3 mil each. This was fun because It was a long trek that felt worthwhile with a big reward(50-60 mil).
As for Navy rank, it seems really slow. I have a Corvette and it took me a week of flying missions in Ceos and Sothis ( after the nerf) to make the rank. I agree with some of the posts here in that the Navy rank should be tied more to missions/ longer campaigns. They should not be tied to running the same missions but for rep.
TL;DR- I think there needs to be a balancing pass on the guardian stuff and naval ranks because it can seem like eating cereal with a toothpick.
I would "grind", but I keep getting distracted by wanting to do other things.
I set myself up in my go-to Lucrative Mission Station, and say to myself, right, I'm going to run these missions until I can afford a [Mamba / Big Mining Ship / Whatever] and/or have the rank to buy [Whatever]...
...Then I find I want to go rescuing people from a burning station, or poke at the Guardian ruins for a bit, or something. This time I'm going to have to get ready to go and survey the one ELW that has my name on it already when 3.3 comes out.
So, I must be doing something wrong, I'm clearly supposed to be getting all bitter and miserable so that I can complain about stuff, all this 'having fun' stuff keeps getting in the way! That's not how this game is played, right?
Same here. There are so many things I want to do in ED that I wouldn't have time to "grind" even if I wanted to do it. Next week there's going to be a load more exploration and mining things I'll want to try out too.
It is "time spent in the game". I guess it is supposed to create a feeling of accomplishment. If you just unlocked everything in one visit, you would probably ask "That`s it?". But without having a varied process, the mere repetition of it (aka just more time spent) is to not going to enhance the experience, but rather the opposite. It feels cheap and unnecessary.
I think balancing things like this is one of the hardest things to achieve in game design.
If it is all pounding on the RNG at the same place to eventually get the rare drops you need I think we can all agree that's not ideal. Highly variable sites where you just had to pound on the RNG at more than one place to be fully supplied are better but still not good. On the other hand if it's entirely deterministic, if a (very long) macro could guarantee you acquiring your entire shopping list then that isn't good either, it's only distinguished by its graphics and user interface from punching trees in minecraft.
Ideally, for "resource gathering" tasks you'd want there to be elements of both randomness and player skill - it's still an RNG but how well you play weights it for better outcomes - play badly and you'll still succeed eventually because even an entire handful of dice can all come up aces in a single throw, they just don't do so very often. Play well and the odds shift in your favor.
It's supremely hard for a game - of any type - to hit that sweet spot. In fact, I can't think of a single game I've ever played where "resource gathering" was a factor that wasn't deserving of at least some criticism in this regard.
ED already got a long term, compelling gameloop. The BGS. Ideal for MP, too. But that's not everyone's cup of tea. So we got the power creep in all its glory and of course it's so overpowered it'd be silly to earn it in a day and be done with the crap already.