On "grinding" without grind.

[matemaster]

Ginding is subjective term. Grinding can't be objectified so there never be consent among playerbase what is grind and what's not.
When some say "I never grinded anything in ED" its from their point of view and they are right. Another player could consider the same activity as grinding from his point of view and he is also right.

 

[Shaamaan]

I wanted to unlock the Guardian fighters. So, let's see what that requires and please tell me this isn't "grindy":
1) go to a guardian nav beacon and charge it up; repeat the process 3 times to get 3 keys (this one's actually pleasant, as it requires no instance resetting and is fairly short and nice to look at)
2) go to a guardian site; charge beacons, use the key, get 1 fighter blueprint; repeat process 3 times (requires instance resetting, getting the first blueprint is fun, but the fun evaporates really quick when you're doing the lengthy process a second and then a third time)
3) realize that you also need a bunch of guardian materials; start repeating the process above (albeit a simpler variation of it) to get these mats; you need a LOT
4) realize that you're missing a lot of Guardian epsilon data packages; get them by either repeating the process above forever or go to a specific location where 2 data pylons are next to each other: scan both, relog, repeat as many times as needed (pure RNG if you get the data you need).

If you limit yourself to one ruin / game session so as to not abuse instance resetting, then the above process would take a VERY long time indeed.

All of the above is a bit out of the bubble, so to even start the process you need to jump something like 12-15 jumps in a decent long-range ship (much more if you don't have one). And if you miscalculate and don't have enough mats once you get back, you're going to have to repeat parts of the process above. Of course one doesn't need to unlock all 3 fighters at once, but due to the time wasted travelling to and from the Guardian sites... well, most people will likely want to get this over with.

My next goal is to unlock the Federal Corvette... and while I was able to get the FAS with very little grind (i.e. by organically playing the game), the process of reaching the Corvette is a bit crazy... same deal with the Cutter (which I already have - so I know what I'm talking about).

If a goal one undertakes is even a little bit larger, then the grindy aspects of the game rear their ugly head extremely quickly. Now, some "grindy" aspects are... relatively OK (like getting mats for engineering upgrades is OKish); while others just make me wonder "what the hell were they thinking when they designed this?!" (like unlocking certain engineers themselves which requires mindless flying back and forth transporting cargo or the above mentioned gathering of epsilon data packages).

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I don't grind neither. Make me do the exact same thing twice or thrice and I'll just likely play something else the next day. That's why I don't really progress in games like ED and why I just tossed my hands in the air and stopped playing with 2.1 and the general increase in bulletsponge.

 

[Florenus]

If a goal one undertakes is even a little bit larger, then the grindy aspects of the game rear their ugly head extremely quickly.

Then maybe try to reverse thinking of how you play the game. Do what you like doing in a ship you have now and get new things only when you can afford them. If you start working to get that ship and all those upgrades and nothing else matters, then it's just work. Grind.

I'm thinking of getting one of those guardian fighters f.ex. I have some of the materials/data , but not all. I'll get more when I feel like doing some more of that ruin stuff. Maybe enough to unlock one of those fighters, maybe only another portion to get me closer. I'm not in a hurry.

There are people here who deleted their saves and restarted the game at least once. Why? Probably they achieved everything and game became too easy, there was nothing left to upgrade, nothing to aim for.
So, why rushing there?

I'm not in a hurry and I have fun.
You're in a hurry and you think it's a grind.

Edit:
also, you don't need to do all those guardian things alone if it's so boring for you. Let's meet in game and I'll help you. We'll do this faster, you'll get your guardian stuff, I'll have my multiplayer fun.

 

[Stealthie]

It's been a perennial subject on here. It's been contentious, with some folks saying that you absolutely have to grind in ED, others taking a diametrically opposed view and neither of these groups being unanimous about whether the experience they describe is a good thing or not.

That's a failure to consider the circumstances of the "grind" in question.

When you've got people who're stacking 20 "rare" long-SC passenger missions for megabucks and then complain that flying through SC is a "grind", that is unwarranted.
When you've got people complaining that unlocking Guardian stuff was a grind (originally) that was a fair criticism because doing the same thing hundreds of times IS pointless.
When you've got people complaining that naval rank is a grind, that's unjustified because attaining those ranks should be a significant achievement.

People are entitled to be critical of anything they want.
Some of those criticisms will be valid, some won't.
Forums are as good a place as any for a dev' to form a consensus. [up]

 

[zarrazee]

OP. Well said. If working towards a goal is at the expense of enjoyment, it becomes a grind.

 

[avow555]

As soon as I collect mats for engineers I know I am grinding, simple really.

My play style doesn't really include dropping into USS and most definetly not running around in that stupid buggy.

As soon as they forced content down peoples throats then your into grind.

 

[bootsam]

I dont mind bombing round a planet gathering mats in my srv. Although I do tend to knacker it a bit doing jumps, spins and other stuff.

Got loadsa chromium etc for trading, now after loadsa mercury for trading. Then G5 Plasmas and Reverb Cascade torps will be mine. Those T9's in outbreak anarchies dont know whats about to hit em.

I hate t9's.

 

[B1rdy]

That's a failure to consider the circumstances of the "grind" in question.

When you've got people who're stacking 20 "rare" long-SC passenger missions for megabucks and then complain that flying through SC is a "grind", that is unwarranted.
When you've got people complaining that unlocking Guardian stuff was a grind (originally) that was a fair criticism because doing the same thing hundreds of times IS pointless.
When you've got people complaining that naval rank is a grind, that's unjustified because attaining those ranks should be a significant achievement.

Exactly, grind can be down to game design but also to play style. That way you could turn any game into a grind, but you cannot turn a grindy game into anything else. Like the Guardian stuff, which need to be acquired in a certain way, only ONE certain way, is a grind. You can change the map by flying to different sites, which is not that much exciting, is it? But the process remains the same.
In addition to that you can also argue, that the process itself isn't that much fun. It is a checkpoint race style of game, with some obstacles. When did you play a racing game with checkpoints in it? (For me it was Burnout (2001), Criterion Games removed checkpoints on all sequels.) Also handling the SRV especially in that kind of terrain is rather awkward than fun, due to it getting stuck pretty easily.

 

[moorison]

From reading your post I think the reason you don't feel its a grind is because you set yourself very small and modest goals. So, if your goal was to collect some mats and you collected some mats. Job done and go to bed happy.
Other people (like me) feel the grind because we set ourselves huge goals without realising that they are huge until we hit the grind wall. For example I decide I would like to get prismatic shields for 3 of my ships. The more I look into it I realise that its actually going to take me several months. Which means everything I do each night seems to be just a tiny scratch in the work I need to do to achieve the single goal of upgrading my shields. So, for 3 months I grind to get something that keeps me away from the game play I actually wanted the shields for.

I think it doesn't always turn out that way, but unlocks generally should feel like a bonus for regular activity, not as a participation trophy for just logging in like some MMOs tend to do but not necessarily as the goal itself. I guess Powerplay prices and the related (limited) interactions would need several adjustments, some are just so powerful that owning them is considered normal, others feel completely ignored. It seems that engineering was supposed to lead away from the supermodules, but if they could be engineered themselves...

 

[moorison]

I wanted to unlock the Guardian fighters. So, let's see what that requires and please tell me this isn't "grindy":
1) go to a guardian nav beacon and charge it up; repeat the process 3 times to get 3 keys (this one's actually pleasant, as it requires no instance resetting and is fairly short and nice to look at)
2) go to a guardian site; charge beacons, use the key, get 1 fighter blueprint; repeat process 3 times (requires instance resetting, getting the first blueprint is fun, but the fun evaporates really quick when you're doing the lengthy process a second and then a third time)
3) realize that you also need a bunch of guardian materials; start repeating the process above (albeit a simpler variation of it) to get these mats; you need a LOT
4) realize that you're missing a lot of Guardian epsilon data packages; get them by either repeating the process above forever or go to a specific location where 2 data pylons are next to each other: scan both, relog, repeat as many times as needed (pure RNG if you get the data you need).

At the time of their release I could unlock a few modules just from the materials I collected previously. I liked to make the trip to the Guardian ruins or structures just for the atmosphere (and the unavoidable spam-missions in Meene). It can be argued that it is not very useful that the recipes are only visible at the station that can unlock the modules and the long time Frontier nudged Cmdrs towards the Guardian ruins to take a look was too subtle since it seemed to only benefit those puzzle and story fans (no BGS or powerplay feedback). If they rolled out the modules one at a time, people might have done the trips sooner just to be prepared for what is to come.

 

[CMDR Yates]

I wanted to unlock the Guardian fighters. So, let's see what that requires and please tell me this isn't "grindy"

But you're trying to unlock all three Guardian fighters at once! Listen, I've been there too, but I've come to realise... you have to treat this unlockable stuff less like a main meal and more like an all-you-can-eat buffet: pick a bit from here, a bit from there, try a bit of that... You can't just pull your chair up to the buffet table and wolf your way through the whole buffet platter against your own increasing discomfort and gag reflex, and then complain the restaurant served too much food.

I think a lot of the issue with grind comes from the fact that this is a sandbox game that gives *us* the responsibility for how we choose to spend our time in it. That's what most of us like about it, but it comes with a cost: a lot of us suck at structuring their own activities in a way that is entertaining to ourselves. We expect the game to do it for us, but Elite isn't like that. The game is not going to change in this regard, not without fundamentally changing what Elite is. So if we want to get more enjoyment from it, we have to change how we approach it.

Just because the game doesn't physically stop you trying to perform these major unlocks in quick succession, doesn't mean it was intended that you do, or that it's a good idea (for your own sanity) to attempt it. And just because other players post on the forums about unlocking them all within a day, doesn't mean that's normal or that they had fun doing it.

My advice would be to think no more than a couple of hours ahead, for the most part. It's fine to have goals in mind but focus on minute-to-minute entertainment first and foremost. If something stops being fun, stop doing it.

It's not a card collecting game; it's fine to unlock just one out of a series of things and then move on for a bit: the decisions about which engineers/Guardian modules to focus on and consequently the limitations imposed by your choices actually add to the fun of it.

 

[Brrokk]

But you're trying to unlock all three Guardian fighters at once! Listen, I've been there too, but I've come to realise... you have to treat this unlockable stuff less like a main meal and more like an all-you-can-eat buffet: pick a bit from here, a bit from there, try a bit of that... You can't just pull your chair up to the buffet table and wolf your way through the whole buffet platter against your own increasing discomfort and gag reflex, and then complain the restaurant served too much food.

I think a lot of the issue with grind comes from the fact that this is a sandbox game that gives *us* the responsibility for how we choose to spend our time in it. That's what most of us like about it, but it comes with a cost: a lot of us suck at structuring their own activities in a way that is entertaining to ourselves. We expect the game to do it for us, but Elite isn't like that. The game is not going to change in this regard, not without fundamentally changing what Elite is. So if we want to get more enjoyment from it, we have to change how we approach it.

Just because the game doesn't physically stop you trying to perform these major unlocks in quick succession, doesn't mean it was intended that you do, or that it's a good idea (for your own sanity) to attempt it. And just because other players post on the forums about unlocking them all within a day, doesn't mean that's normal or that they had fun doing it.

My advice would be to think no more than a couple of hours ahead, for the most part. It's fine to have goals in mind but focus on minute-to-minute entertainment first and foremost. If something stops being fun, stop doing it.

It's not a card collecting game; it's fine to unlock just one out of a series of things and then move on for a bit: the decisions about which engineers/Guardian modules to focus on and consequently the limitations imposed by your choices actually add to the fun of it.

This. I decided which Guardian items I wanted and gradually unlocked those.

 

[Han_Zen]

Now that's a word I haven't read in a long time.

It's the name of my Vulture.

 

[Stealthie]

But you're trying to unlock all three Guardian fighters at once! Listen, I've been there too, but I've come to realise... you have to treat this unlockable stuff less like a main meal and more like an all-you-can-eat buffet: pick a bit from here, a bit from there, try a bit of that... You can't just pull your chair up to the buffet table and wolf your way through the whole buffet platter against your own increasing discomfort and gag reflex, and then complain the restaurant served too much food.

Not sure about that, in the case of the Guardian SLFs at least.

You'll waste more time making 3 separate trips to the Guardian space-stations than you'll spend collecting mat's for all 3 fighters.
That being the case, you might as well just make 1 trip and grab everything at the same time.

When my table is 1000Ly from the buffet, you can be damned sure I'm going to eat everything I want while I'm there.

 

[Florenus]

Not sure about that, in the case of the Guardian SLFs at least.

You'll waste more time making 3 separate trips to the Guardian space-stations than you'll spend collecting mat's for all 3 fighters.
That being the case, you might as well just make 1 trip and grab everything at the same time.

When my table is 1000Ly from the buffet, you can be damned sure I'm going to eat everything I want while I'm there.

But do you need all 3?
I think the design was rather that you can choose one you want.
Of course you can have all 3, but if you decide to get all of them at once then the grind is on you.

 

[Shaamaan]

But you're trying to unlock all three Guardian fighters at once!

Sorry to cut the quote short. In a general sense, I agree. HOWEVER...

- even unlocking 1 fighter requires a significant amount of Epsilon data packages - that's pure, frustrating RNG grind right there, all other things excluded
- because the ruins are not that close to begin with, people WILL want to "get it over with" - admittedly, I'm one of those people and this IS putting oneself, willingly, into a "grind"...

Ultimately, here's the thing - if an objective requires performing a unique activity, then it is not grindy... but if an objective requires extreme repetition of an activity, then it IS grind; pure and simple. And a LOT of activities, even very minor ones, in ED require repetition. One can argue if a specific activity is unique or not, but that's not really the point.

And don't get me wrong; I LIKE ED! It's a gorgeous game and can be a LOT of fun. Plus, even grind can be fun (it tends to be relaxing for some people; I myself enjoy the occasional cargo run or spending some time almost mindlessly blowing up pirates in a HazREZ). But every so often I feel like the developers forget that the time players have to play the game is finite and that OTHER games exist as well.

To put this into perspective... if ED were a good single-player game (and I'm excluding some recent SP games with deliberately grindy mechanics implemented solely to sell "XP boosters" or other micro-transaction nonsense) then to get a good faction rank one would likely need to perform various, unique and ever more difficult missions for the Imperial / Federation (a few per rank, not more). The Elite rank in exploration would be from solving some deep mystery, with clues scattered around the galaxy (albeit a good SP game would probably also have the actual exploration aspect a bit more... interesting, but this is very high-level concept work here). Getting an Elite rank in combat would have you take down some kind of evil pirate faction or overthrowing one of the "good" factions (if you're a more evil type), by completing ever more difficult tasks to undermine and weaken the faction, before finally taking down their leader(s). But in ED all of these are basically "repeat X times activity Y" which probably stems from the willingness to use procedural generation for as many things as possible, which necessitates repetition.

Again, ED can still be a lot of fun, but the general mechanics are almost exclusively governed by repetition. There's only so much you can blame on the player when the entire game is based around such mechanics.

 

[Han_Zen]

As soon as I collect mats for engineers I know I am grinding, simple really.

My play style doesn't really include dropping into USS and most definetly not running around in that stupid buggy.

As soon as they forced content down peoples throats then your into grind.

Yeah. It's even worse when your play style doesn't include docking.
If it doesn't include flying a space ship, there is hardly any way to progress at all.

Lots of forced content in this game.[blah]

 

[Stealthie]

But do you need all 3?
I think the design was rather that you can choose one you want.
Of course you can have all 3, but if you decide to get all of them at once then the grind is on you.

True enough.

I was just pointing out that, in the case of the GSLFs, it's probably quicker to unlock them all at once rather than making 3 separate trips.
Unlocking them one at a time just means you are, effectively, travelling 4000Ly because you don't want to spend a couple of hours shooting at sentinels and scanning obelisks.

Might be worth reminding people that there ARE sites which are especially suited to different aspects of the process too.
Go to the "wrong" place and you'll spend a week trying to gather the stuff you need.
Go to a more suitable place and you'll be finished in a couple of hours - with very little re-logging.

If people are doing stuff the hard way and then moaning about "grind", I guess it's on them.

 

[Cmdr Nemo]

One can but usually never does, go from the beginning combat rating to elite in nothing but a sidewinder, and only killing other sidewinders. It will take somewhere near 6,000 dead sidewinders to accomplish it. One mans grind is just another mans level of OCD. Though I've got a certain amount of OCD, I don't have enough to go from start to elite in a sidewinder all the way to elite. But someone else might. I'd state it's a grind, they wouldn't.