On "grinding" without grind.

To put this into perspective... if ED were a good single-player game (and I'm excluding some recent SP games with deliberately grindy mechanics implemented solely to sell "XP boosters" or other micro-transaction nonsense) then to get a good faction rank one would likely need to perform various, ever more difficult missions for the Imperial / Federation. The Elite rank in exploration would be from solving some deep mystery, with clues scattered around the galaxy (albeit a good SP game would probably also have the actual exploration aspect a bit more... interesting, but this is very high-level concept work here). Getting an Elite rank in combat would have you take down some kind of evil pirate faction or overthrowing one of the "good" factions (if you're a more evil type), by completing ever more difficult tasks to undermine and weaken the faction, before finally taking down their leader(s). But in ED all of these are basically "repeat X times activity Y". Again, ED can still be a lot of fun, but the general mechanics almost exclusively governed by repetition. There's only so much you can blame on the player when the entire game is based around such mechanics.

I don't understand this kind of apprach to this game.
Pilots Federation rank or faction ranks are rewards you get for playing the game, not goals you MUST achieve.
Everything else is also optional. Even those guardian fighters. You don't need to get them, certainly not all of them. When NVidia and AMD release new GPUs f.ex. you don't buy every on of them? You choose the one you feel is for you. That's whay there are 3 guardian fighters in game in my opinion. To give player options, not to force them to grind 3 times more.
Of course there are people who must have everything the game offers, to get this 100% completed achievement, or something. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just don't get it.
 
Yeah. It's even worse when your play style doesn't include docking.
If it doesn't include flying a space ship, there is hardly any way to progress at all.

Lots of forced content in this game.[blah]

Hardly see any relevance in your reply.

The game has many pleasing aspects.
Forced grind however is painfully obvious as soon as you wish to improve your ship.
Engineering and Guardians being the worst offenders.
Powerplay when that launched was just a glimpse of what was to come.
 
If you're smart about how you approach things which, granted requires a bit of knowledge a very new person might not have and also some planning, you can just automatically collect stuff and almost everything else doesn't need to be done in one go either. As a simple person, here's a few simple examples. Fit a wake scanner to a ship you'll be travelling about in and every time you leave a station, scan a wake on your way out, adds less than 1 min and you'll automagically fill up your scan data mats. Going out on purpose to collect all the data mats to G5 several modules all at once will be really boring but there is no need to do that unless you want to. Also, target and scan every ship which comes into sensor range in supercruise for data mats. If you're doing a RES take limpets and a controller and collect bits of dead ship mats. etc etc The Guardian stuff isn't grindy unless you collect literally everything for all kit and the locations are cool to visit anyway.

The Ram Tah mission is very grindy mainly because it's time limited so you can't get much of a break from it and there is a lot of ship, stone, ship, stone back and forth shuttling of artefacts.
 
I don't understand this kind of apprach to this game.
(...)When NVidia and AMD release new GPUs f.ex. you don't buy every on of them? You choose the one you feel is for you. That's whay there are 3 guardian fighters in game in my opinion. To give player options, not to force them to grind 3 times more.
Of course there are people who must have everything the game offers, to get this 100% completed achievement, or something. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just don't get it.

I think you're confusing real life with real-life limitation with video games and... the lack of limitations.

Usually if a game offers various in-game options and content players will want to experience that content. Even story-driven games where players are forced to make a story-critical choice tend to warrant multiple playthroughs to experience what that other branch had in it. To illustrate: if a racing game permits the player to buy and store cars, you can bet that most players will go for MANY cars (at least the ones they find the most cool and / or fastest, but often even more)... while in real-life I have 0 sports cars (and 1 regular car). (No, I'm not bragging; it's not a particularly great car and I'm just trying to point out the absurdity of the argument... :p )

Finally, when it comes the the Guardian fighters - how the hell does one decide which one they want without trying all 3?! Sure, you can possibly try and set up a multi-crew session with someone who has each one, but if we're sticking purely to what's available in game, then you're making a blind purchase right there which is another reason people will try to go get all 3 immediately.

In fact, the same limitation applies to a LOT of ships in the game (albeit to a far lesser extent), requiring time and credit investment to purchase and outfit, only to discover that "meh, I don't really like this ship". And while the credit investment will be mostly returned, the time investment won't. Thankfully credits are less of a worry these days and so it's far less "painful" to outfit a ship you find is not to your liking in the end. And then there are the 2 big elephants in the room: the Cutter and the Corvette, for which the time investment is absurd. It's so bad that we have dedicated EXTERNAL tools to help us with this (like Coriolis), but even that is still just one big "what if"...
 
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Hardly see any relevance in your reply.

The game has many pleasing aspects.
Forced grind however is painfully obvious as soon as you wish to improve your ship.
Engineering and Guardians being the worst offenders.
Powerplay when that launched was just a glimpse of what was to come.

The grind is obvious as soon as you wish to improve your ship quickly.

If the goal of your game is the build you have made in Coriolis, it will become a grind.

The game works fine without that ship. Except for killing Thargoids, you can do anything in an un-engineered Sidewinder. Almost anything you do will get you cash and materials, you can use for upgrades.
Might not get you that Coriolis build, but it will be something.

It's the choices we make that forces the grind. Not the game.
I have both grinded and not grinded. Both approaches work. Grinding is just quicker.
 
I wanted to unlock the Guardian fighters. So, let's see what that requires and please tell me this isn't "grindy":
1) go to a guardian nav beacon and charge it up; repeat the process 3 times to get 3 keys (this one's actually pleasant, as it requires no instance resetting and is fairly short and nice to look at)
2) go to a guardian site; charge beacons, use the key, get 1 fighter blueprint; repeat process 3 times (requires instance resetting, getting the first blueprint is fun, but the fun evaporates really quick when you're doing the lengthy process a second and then a third time)
3) realize that you also need a bunch of guardian materials; start repeating the process above (albeit a simpler variation of it) to get these mats; you need a LOT
4) realize that you're missing a lot of Guardian epsilon data packages; get them by either repeating the process above forever or go to a specific location where 2 data pylons are next to each other: scan both, relog, repeat as many times as needed (pure RNG if you get the data you need).

If you limit yourself to one ruin / game session so as to not abuse instance resetting, then the above process would take a VERY long time indeed.

All of the above is a bit out of the bubble, so to even start the process you need to jump something like 12-15 jumps in a decent long-range ship (much more if you don't have one). And if you miscalculate and don't have enough mats once you get back, you're going to have to repeat parts of the process above. Of course one doesn't need to unlock all 3 fighters at once, but due to the time wasted travelling to and from the Guardian sites... well, most people will likely want to get this over with.

My next goal is to unlock the Federal Corvette... and while I was able to get the FAS with very little grind (i.e. by organically playing the game), the process of reaching the Corvette is a bit crazy... same deal with the Cutter (which I already have - so I know what I'm talking about).

If a goal one undertakes is even a little bit larger, then the grindy aspects of the game rear their ugly head extremely quickly. Now, some "grindy" aspects are... relatively OK (like getting mats for engineering upgrades is OKish); while others just make me wonder "what the hell were they thinking when they designed this?!" (like unlocking certain engineers themselves which requires mindless flying back and forth transporting cargo or the above mentioned gathering of epsilon data packages).

I do see where you're coming from, but its worth remembering that those large goals are an accumulation of little ones. Lets just take the two biggest ones you mentioned, unlock guardian fighters and get a corvette.

I'm in the mood to crank out some credits. So I do. I'm also aware that ranking up for a 'vette is on my to-do list so fed missions that suit my current goal of earning some efficient cash also happen. In pretty short order they'll be good ones too, even if I'm new to the area, since profitable trading turns stations green pretty quickly. Maybe take a break in the middle of a session if a rank-up mission pops, maybe not. I'm not wasting any fed rep I gather anyway...

Maybe I'm close to a rankup when I start a session and decide to spend this one specifically running fed missions to get it to tick over...

If I feel like shooting stuff there's always bounty hunting in fed space or finding a nice spot where two fed factions are squabbling so that whichever side I tun in c-bonds for I still get superpower rep out of it... It all fits in with all the other little goals until I decide I'm in the mood for a honking cruise...

On that play session, since the guardian gear is also on my wishlist, it will be in that direction. While I'm traveling, though, the fact that I'm heading to a guardian site is incidental, I'm primarily focused on getting eye candy for my desktop wallpaper and interesting astro data. Once outside the bubble taking it easy(-ish) still plotting fast routes but not using jet cones, for example. Even on well-traveled routes you still pick up a few first discoveries that way. Obviously this is one of the few sessions where I know what I'll be doing in the next one...

Hey, I'm in guardian space :) let's hit a few sites, run the puzzles a few times trying for better times - think of it as a buckyball obstacle course :) of course since I'm not daft and I know a lot of guardian mats will be needed there's no way I won't pillage every last scrap out of each site between runs before I reset the instance. Since I'm out here anyway I may as well hit more than one site, even though the fighter blueprints I particularly want are only in one place that I know about... I'm probably going to want to bug the tech broker about other stuff too in the future, after all. So only run each site a few times, not enough for it to get silly. Maybe for variety slowboat on an efficient route between sites while doing some more serious honking. But all too soon it's time to think about doing something else, which means heading back in.

On the run back in I'm still honking stuff but this time I am using jetcones. My goal here is to sell all that explo data at a fed station. I still want that rep in addition to the credits and he exploration rank, after all...

A few play sessions later, during which one of these smaller but varied goals gets achieved in each, there's the mission for rear admiral, and Glory Be! I seem to have enough credits accumulated that even after paying for my new 'vette I've got more in the bank than I had when I decided that I'd quite like one. I think I'll put a guardian fighter in its bay, and while I'm at it this IS a 'vette after all.. did I collect enough stuff while I was out there to bolt an FSD booster onto its lazy behind?
 
lol, reminds me of Cruise's "The Last Samurai" - 'no mind' dual-samurai sword wielding posing scenes, after beheading some hapless 'natives'.

FWIW, "mushin" is a thing in the martial arts, particularly in swordsmanship. If you're thinking, you're too slow. If you're really good you've completed the technique before it reaches the level of conscious thought. Awareness -> intention -> action before it touches the surface "mind"
 
I think you're confusing real life with real-life limitation with video games and... the lack of limitations.

Usually if a game offers various in-game options and content players will want to experience that content. Even story-driven games where players are forced to make a story-critical choice tend to warrant multiple playthroughs to experience what that other branch had in it. To illustrate: if a racing game permits the player to buy and store cars, you can bet that most players will go for MANY cars (at least the ones they find the most cool and / or fastest, but often even more)... while in real-life I have 0 sports cars (and 1 regular car). (No, I'm not bragging; it's not a particularly great car and I'm just trying to point out the absurdity of the argument... :p )

Finally, when it comes the the Guardian fighters - how the hell does one decide which one they want without trying all 3?! Sure, you can possibly try and set up a multi-crew session with someone who has each one, but if we're sticking purely to what's available in game, then you're making a blind purchase right there which is another reason people will try to go get all 3 immediately.

In fact, the same limitation applies to a LOT of ships in the game (albeit to a far lesser extent), requiring time and credit investment to purchase and outfit, only to discover that "meh, I don't really like this ship". And while the credit investment will be mostly returned, the time investment won't. Thankfully credits are less of a worry these days and so it's far less "painful" to outfit a ship you find is not to your liking in the end. And then there are the 2 big elephants in the room: the Cutter and the Corvette, for which the time investment is absurd. It's so bad that we have dedicated EXTERNAL tools to help us with this (like Coriolis), but even that is still just one big "what if"...

No doubt some kind of demo-mode for ships or fighters would be a benefit for Cmdrs, even if you can't afford a sports car, you might get the chance for a test drive. I think the wish to try every ship in game is indeed calculated by the developers, partly because the predecessors and similar games work the same way. Watching a video is never as informative as flying yourself. However, Cmdrs that are only interested in goals like "having flown each ship at least once" and don't have fun in other elements of the game, would certainly move on anyway, it would just take longer.
 
I do see where you're coming from, but its worth remembering that those large goals are an accumulation of little ones. Lets just take the two biggest ones you mentioned, unlock guardian fighters and get a corvette.

Again, in general I agree with this approach. It's making the best out of a set of overly simplistic (and occasionally just plain bad) game mechanics. I do the same in my sessions (excluding some cases, like the mentioned Guardian SLF grind)... But you ARE making excuses for these simplistic mechanics nonetheless while these mechanics do deserve the criticism they get.

A few THOUSAND play sessions later, during which one of these smaller but varied goals gets achieved in each, there's the mission for rear admiral, and Glory Be!

Fixed! :p
 
Guardian Vessel BP is easier than Guardian Weapon BP is easier than Guardian Module.

None of them are particularly difficult. In fact theyre a doddle. Once you do 2 or 3 runs, the sentinels become predictable and you can ready yourself and zap em. MrOriginalB's guides are concise and easy to follow. (Thanks MrO) I did 8 module, 14 weapon and 3(ish) vessel. I lost the last vessel key being careless scooping. Cargo door failed and ejected my cargo.

Zap the leaning towers for guardian power cells, tech modules and the other one i cant recall. Tech modules are needed most. Scoop up guardian sentinel weapon bits too.

Like I said, do one or two and you wuill get in the swing of it and soon enough you will be flying thru em in double time. Ignore the obelisks. Go to a ruin site on module planet, find two that are next to each other and log away till you fill up.
 
Again, in general I agree with this approach. It's making the best out of a set of overly simplistic (and occasionally just plain bad) game mechanics. I do the same in my sessions (excluding some cases, like the mentioned Guardian SLF grind)... But you ARE making excuses for these simplistic mechanics nonetheless while these mechanics do deserve the criticism they get.



Fixed! :p

LOL. Totally get that and to be honest I haven't counted the play sessions it took me to get to a particular "big goal" yet, but in the end I've spent no more game time on a particular activity than if I'd gone for it as a full-on grind. I guess the bottom line is that if you stack the goals with GOTOs it's going to be a heck of a grind. If you do it with fork()s, not so much :)
 
Usually if a game offers various in-game options and content players will want to experience that content. Even story-driven games where players are forced to make a story-critical choice tend to warrant multiple playthroughs to experience what that other branch had in it. To illustrate: if a racing game permits the player to buy and store cars, you can bet that most players will go for MANY cars (at least the ones they find the most cool and / or fastest, but often even more)... while in real-life I have 0 sports cars (and 1 regular car). (No, I'm not bragging; it's not a particularly great car and I'm just trying to point out the absurdity of the argument... :p )

All of this doesn't mean you need to experience all of this content at once, or even that you must experience it.
In RL I probably would have own every sports car possible if it wouldn't mean any work for me - if I could just have them, not even thinking where to park them (because at some point even logistics would become tedious). But i'm limited by many things, so I choose other things than owning sports cars;)
And if you want to go with multiple plythroughs in some story driven game, you just can't complain that playing it again is boring for most parts, because you must repeat things you've done the first time. That's the price you pay in game.

Finally, when it comes the the Guardian fighters - how the hell does one decide which one they want without trying all 3?! Sure, you can possibly try and set up a multi-crew session with someone who has each one, but if we're sticking purely to what's available in game, then you're making a blind purchase right there which is another reason people will try to go get all 3 immediately.

In fact, the same limitation applies to a LOT of ships in the game (albeit to a far lesser extent), requiring time and credit investment to purchase and outfit, only to discover that "meh, I don't really like this ship". And while the credit investment will be mostly returned, the time investment won't. Thankfully credits are less of a worry these days and so it's far less "painful" to outfit a ship you find is not to your liking in the end. And then there are the 2 big elephants in the room: the Cutter and the Corvette, for which the time investment is absurd. It's so bad that we have dedicated EXTERNAL tools to help us with this (like Coriolis), but even that is still just one big "what if"...

I agree that some kind of "test drive' would be nice. Even being able to just sit in a cockpit of a new ship, to check if you like the view. As a matter of fact, when someone is new to the game, he even can't take a proper look at new ships from outside, because shipyard screen presents us only with this "simplified" view.
 
I didnt find them grind at all, well maybe the weapon one is a tad, but the others you only need a few. I quite liked doing them tbh.
 
The grind is obvious as soon as you wish to improve your ship quickly.

If the goal of your game is the build you have made in Coriolis, it will become a grind.

The game works fine without that ship. Except for killing Thargoids, you can do anything in an un-engineered Sidewinder. Almost anything you do will get you cash and materials, you can use for upgrades.
Might not get you that Coriolis build, but it will be something.

It's the choices we make that forces the grind. Not the game.
I have both grinded and not grinded. Both approaches work. Grinding is just quicker.

No, it's the game. I can't play at my own pace when the spawn algo decides randomly it'd be fun to spawn engineered bulletsponge NPCs on me.
 
FWIW, "mushin" is a thing in the martial arts, particularly in swordsmanship. If you're thinking, you're too slow. If you're really good you've completed the technique before it reaches the level of conscious thought. Awareness -> intention -> action before it touches the surface "mind"

A training thing I did provided me with an interesting insight into the idea of "competence".

The idea goes that there are 4 levels of competence:-
1) Unconscious Incompetence - you're doing it wrong and you don't even realise you're doing it wrong.
2) Conscious Incompetence - you're doing it wrong and you know you're doing it wrong.
3) Conscious Competence - you're doing it right as long as you think about what you're doing.
4) Unconscious Competence - you're doing it right without thinking about it.

Also, there's an idea related to training.

First you train until you get it right.
After that, you train until you get it wrong.

The idea being that you constantly push yourself until you find a "point of failure", then you figure out what went wrong, fix it and then carry on at an ever-higher level as a result of continuously fixing the things you do wrong.

Food for thought.
 
Progression should take a long time, you should really have to earn your rewards in Elite. But the game just needs more content so the players have more at their disposal to do so, I'm sure it will come though, chapter 4 is certainly a good start.

This, in a nutshell.

Stuff like the naval rank grind, for example, should take as long as it takes (or, perhaps, even longer) but what it really needs is a more diverse range of activities so it doesn't feel like you're just doing the same thing over and over, a gazillion times - and doing the same thing over and over a gazillion times shouldn't be the most efficient way of achieving your goals.
 
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