Only one light source at a time?

[nanite2000]

Your understanding is a decade or two out of date. Almost all the processing of light modelling in modern games is done on the GPU not the CPU.

If Frontier's problems ARE from trying to do it on the CPU, that's their own fault.

I used the term 'CPU' in the most generic sense possible. Of course most graphics processing is done on the GPU these days - it doesn't mean that accurate lighting modelling is any less intensive on a GPU.

The decision behind this is Frontier's trying to use in-house code rather than an industry standard game engine like almost every other game developer.

There's no such thing as an 'industry standard game engine'. Every game engine you know of was originally developed in-house by a specific games development studio, no different to Frontier.

Did you mean 'industry standard graphics development'? If so, then Frontier do this already by developing to Direct X standards.

This in-house code is what they tout as "COBRA", which no-one had heard of and was not mentioned on any of their games until 2013 when Frontier started talking up the company to sell shares to investors, at which point Frontier claimed it has had this wonderful COBRA engine technology -- since 1984!

Your understanding is about 23 years out of date. The COBRA engine is not just a graphics engine - it's also the procedural generation system that is use to create and model star systems, generate missions, etc... By that definition, it's been around since 1984 since the concept of procedural generation was made by David Braben when he first developed Elite in 1984.

That's how ED got stuck with mickey mouse code that can't do simple things that other games have being doing for years without any of these "difficult decisions" you speak of.

Oh look - another Frontier employee. Blimey! You guys are out in force today!

The COBRA lighting code breaks one way or another on every big ED update. Blinding white space stations, pitch-black space stations, no-light cockpits, flashing light level on planet surface, ship headlights shining through Thargoid structures etc. etc.

I've never once seen the problems you describe, and I've been playing for over a year. Congratulations - you've experienced some bugs. As I said earlier - name me a 3D graphics engine that doesn't have bugs.

Before anyone expects a fix to ED's inability to show light from only one sun, consider that in three years, Frontier have not even been able to get that one sun to do the absolute basics of lighting right, such as throwing the right colour.

https://i.imgur.com/p7QRzB9.png

We *know* Elite doesn't handle multiple light sources yet. What point are you trying to make with your screenshot?

We all know it's possible to render multiple light sources - Elite does it already with weapons and thrusters. The problem is rendering it system wide from multiple stars. It's all very well saying it should be able to cope with it. Maybe if there were only 3 or 4 stars it could manage it. But how's it going to manage with a system like this:

Do you think you will still get reasonable framerates in a system like that? Can you name a graphics engine that does?

Frontier have to balance performance with aesthetics. They could spend their time developing the most stunning looking engine ever made, but what good is it if it won't run well on most people's hardware? Also, where would the gameplay be?

Just because they haven't added multiple light sources yet, doesn't mean they never will. They've made the difficult decision to balance gameplay content with graphics that look 'good enough'.

What would you have done in their position?

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I used the term 'CPU' in the most generic sense possible. Of course most graphics processing is done on the GPU these days - it doesn't mean that accurate lighting modelling is any less intensive on a GPU.

sounds like you're covering - even I wouldnt make that mistake and I'm not a developer or 20+ years as a coder (apparently)

There's no such thing as an 'industry standard game engine'. Every game engine you know of was originally developed in-house by a specific games development studio, no different to Frontier.

err - how many games have been released using the cryengine, why has SC reverted to using Amazons lumberjack, Unity, Unreal 4. A quick google shows that as of 2014 there were 16 (SIXTEEN) major games engines to choose from - and I'd guess the majority of those have years of develop and refinement time under thier belts; unreal 4 has close to a decade, the cryengine not far off that. Just last week I re-played Crysis again and it stands tall in the graphics dept no problem, add some extra textures etc with recent mods and voila, a game that will run 4k.

Unity, Unreal 4 and cryengine ALL support PC's and ALL MAJOR CONSOLES. That's three industry leading engines right there.

There has to be another explanation of why FDev decided to re-invent the wheel when so many perfectly capable wheels already existed. My guess would be they didn't want to pay the usage fees and pay a commission on game sales. Unity would have been my choice as it deals with AA a LOT better, and ED envirenment could certainly use a bit of that.

Did you mean 'industry standard graphics development'? If so, then Frontier do this already by developing to Direct X standards.

WHICH direct X? Coz y'know there ARE differences. Is ED running in DX12? or DX11 that's been around for.... oh 7 years and counting, and will be outmoded in the near future. With FDev's production rate they will need to implement DX12 within 2 years to stay current and keep people paying when Star Citizen kicks off, with a new X franchise game in the wings, plus Dual Universe and Infinity Battlescape; graphically inferior but with significatly greater player freedom than ED has (or might ever have). Is it easy to change from DX11 to 12? I have no idea, chance are it's not a simple switch, adding yet MORE time to an already slow output.

Your understanding is about 23 years out of date. The COBRA engine is not just a graphics engine - it's also the procedural generation system that is use to create and model star systems, generate missions, etc... By that definition, it's been around since 1984 since the concept of procedural generation was made by David Braben when he first developed Elite in 1984.

Yes Mr B invented the system, but he hasn't been very good at keeping pace with industry standards, and as I said why re-invent the wheel when others have done it already. There is a fundamental thing here that most people forget when arguing in FDevs corner about how they developed the game and any intrinsic limitations it has.

IT WASN'T THEIR MONEY. How much dev time was used just to get thier inhouse engine to do things a 3rd party engine could have done from day 1? Business 101 - when using loaned money - to mean it's not out of your personal pocket - you should ensure that you get to where you need to be in the most efficient manner with the least wastage, because time is ticking and the people that gave you that money for this specific purpose are waiting for results. [and for the investors, thier returns plus profits].

That's my belief of the underlying reason why release was "rushed", to start getting more cash to carry on from the playerbase, becuase there's only so many times you can milk a cow [or investor].

Oh look - another Frontier employee. Blimey! You guys are out in force today!

It's clearly escaped your notice, but I feel should tell you some people have been following, reading, going to gamescon etc etc about this game since the Kickstarter. That gives them a pretty well informed background into the game, FDev and all things related. That's four years worth of informed opinion. I know someone who has gone further and looked at the company itself and certain shenanigins with their tax returns and board members - all public record btw. It makes for VERY interesting reading.

You've been around for a year, I suggest you lay off that sort of comment in future.

I've never once seen the problems you describe, and I've been playing for over a year. Congratulations - you've experienced some bugs. As I said earlier - name me a 3D graphics engine that doesn't have bugs.

We *know* Elite doesn't handle multiple light sources yet. What point are you trying to make with your screenshot?

We all know it's possible to render multiple light sources - Elite does it already with weapons and thrusters. The problem is rendering it system wide from multiple stars. It's all very well saying it should be able to cope with it. Maybe if there were only 3 or 4 stars it could manage it. But how's it going to manage with a system like this:

https://i.imgur.com/PqhPjcL.png

Do you think you will still get reasonable framerates in a system like that? Can you name a graphics engine that does?

Throw it in the top three fully optimized graphics engines I mentioned above and we'll see won't we? COBRA is clearly not even remotely optimized.

Frontier have to balance performance with aesthetics. They could spend their time developing the most stunning looking engine ever made, but what good is it if it won't run well on most people's hardware? Also, where would the gameplay be?

again - thier choice to create and develop another buggy graphics engine instead of using a 3rd party optimized one. If they have done so in the hope other 3rd parties will buy COBRA; based on current performance and how many years they are behind in the race, I think they are in cookoo land. COBRA will never be as good or efficient as Unity or Unreal 4 or Cryengine, because they will keep being developed past where they are now, which is already superior to COBRA.

Just because they haven't added multiple light sources yet, doesn't mean they never well. They've made the difficult decision to balance gameplay content with graphics that look 'good enough'.

What would you have done in their position?

I'd have ponied up for Unity, Unreal 4 and Cryengine, in that order; and bloody well got on with the modelling.

and BTW, clearly I'm not an FDev employee..... no, I'm something far more important.

I'm a paid CUSTOMER, and a Dev house ignores it's customers at it's peril.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I used the term 'CPU' in the most generic sense possible. Of course most graphics processing is done on the GPU these days - it doesn't mean that accurate lighting modelling is any less intensive on a GPU.



There's no such thing as an 'industry standard game engine'. Every game engine you know of was originally developed in-house by a specific games development studio, no different to Frontier.

Did you mean 'industry standard graphics development'? If so, then Frontier do this already by developing to Direct X standards.



Your understanding is about 23 years out of date. The COBRA engine is not just a graphics engine - it's also the procedural generation system that is use to create and model star systems, generate missions, etc... By that definition, it's been around since 1984 since the concept of procedural generation was made by David Braben when he first developed Elite in 1984.



Oh look - another Frontier employee. Blimey! You guys are out in force today!



I've never once seen the problems you describe, and I've been playing for over a year. Congratulations - you've experienced some bugs. As I said earlier - name me a 3D graphics engine that doesn't have bugs.



We *know* Elite doesn't handle multiple light sources yet. What point are you trying to make with your screenshot?

We all know it's possible to render multiple light sources - Elite does it already with weapons and thrusters. The problem is rendering it system wide from multiple stars. It's all very well saying it should be able to cope with it. Maybe if there were only 3 or 4 stars it could manage it. But how's it going to manage with a system like this:

https://i.imgur.com/PqhPjcL.png

Do you think you will still get reasonable framerates in a system like that? Can you name a graphics engine that does?

Frontier have to balance performance with aesthetics. They could spend their time developing the most stunning looking engine ever made, but what good is it if it won't run well on most people's hardware? Also, where would the gameplay be?

Just because they haven't added multiple light sources yet, doesn't mean they never will. They've made the difficult decision to balance gameplay content with graphics that look 'good enough'.

What would you have done in their position?

The poster is a known troll. Just ignore him.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

sounds like you're covering - even I wouldnt make that mistake and I'm not a developer or 20+ years as a coder (apparently)




err - how many games have been released using the cryengine, why has SC reverted to using Amazons lumberjack, Unity, Unreal 4. A quick google shows that as of 2014 there were 16 (SIXTEEN) major games engines to choose from - and I'd guess the majority of those have years of develop and refinement time under thier belts; unreal 4 has close to a decade, the cryengine not far off that. Just last week I re-played Crysis again and it stands tall in the graphics dept no problem, add some extra textures etc with recent mods and voila, a game that will run 4k.

Unity, Unreal 4 and cryengine ALL support PC's and ALL MAJOR CONSOLES. That's three industry leading engines right there.

There has to be another explanation of why FDev decided to re-invent the wheel when so many perfectly capable wheels already existed. My guess would be they didn't want to pay the usage fees and pay a commission on game sales. Unity would have been my choice as it deals with AA a LOT better, and ED envirenment could certainly use a bit of that.





WHICH direct X? Coz y'know there ARE differences. Is ED running in DX12? or DX11 that's been around for.... oh 7 years and counting, and will be outmoded in the near future. With FDev's production rate they will need to implement DX12 within 2 years to stay current and keep people paying when Star Citizen kicks off, with a new X franchise game in the wings, plus Dual Universe and Infinity Battlescape; graphically inferior but with significatly greater player freedom than ED has (or might ever have). Is it easy to change from DX11 to 12? I have no idea, chance are it's not a simple switch, adding yet MORE time to an already slow output.



Yes Mr B invented the system, but he hasn't been very good at keeping pace with industry standards, and as I said why re-invent the wheel when others have done it already. There is a fundamental thing here that most people forget when arguing in FDevs corner about how they developed the game and any intrinsic limitations it has.

IT WASN'T THEIR MONEY. How much dev time was used just to get thier inhouse engine to do things a 3rd party engine could have done from day 1? Business 101 - when using loaned money - to mean it's not out of your personal pocket - you should ensure that you get to where you need to be in the most efficient manner with the least wastage, because time is ticking and the people that gave you that money for this specific purpose are waiting for results. [and for the investors, thier returns plus profits].

That's my belief of the underlying reason why release was "rushed", to start getting more cash to carry on from the playerbase, becuase there's only so many times you can milk a cow [or investor].





It's clearly escaped your notice, but I feel should tell you some people have been following, reading, going to gamescon etc etc about this game since the Kickstarter. That gives them a pretty well informed background into the game, FDev and all things related. That's four years worth of informed opinion. I know someone who has gone further and looked at the company itself and certain shenanigins with their tax returns and board members - all public record btw. It makes for VERY interesting reading.

You've been around for a year, I suggest you lay off that sort of comment in future.





Throw it in the top three fully optimized graphics engines I mentioned above and we'll see won't we? COBRA is clearly not even remotely optimized.



again - thier choice to create and develop another buggy graphics engine instead of using a 3rd party optimized one. If they have done so in the hope other 3rd parties will buy COBRA; based on current performance and how many years they are behind in the race, I think they are in cookoo land. COBRA will never be as good or efficient as Unity or Unreal 4 or Cryengine, because they will keep being developed past where they are now, which is already superior to COBRA.



I'd have ponied up for Unity, Unreal 4 and Cryengine, in that order; and bloody well got on with the modelling.

and BTW, clearly I'm not an FDev employee..... no, I'm something far more important.

I'm a paid CUSTOMER, and a Dev house ignores it's customers at it's peril.

You do know that FDev have been using the Cobra engine for a long time. Why on earth would they get another game engine learn how to use it etc when they have a perfectly adequate one which they know how to use already. Sounds like lunacy to me.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Last comment I saw on this was

“Couldn’t be ruled out” as a possible feature, but if it did appear it would be a graphical setting for high end computers.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Ah, the only thing more waggly than a gamer e-peen waggle-off: a coder e-peen waggle-off.

If by coder you mean: "gamer's who have read up a bunch of stuff about games development and played a lot of games but have no actual experience in engine or game development."

 

[Paroxsym]

I've seen a lot of talk about framerates in some of the posts. I recently upgraded my PC and ran a repeatable (as close to repeatable as ED can get) test to see what framerates in the game are like both before and after. If someone is legitimately having framerate problems in Elite, its likely they're trying to run higher settings than their PC is capable of.

The benchmarks I ran had the same settings; 2560x1080 resolution, Graphics options on High across the board, Supersampling at 1x, 4x FXAA (For those wondering the reason for 'high' instead of 'ultra'... the game is far more detailed on High than on Ultra settings, and reflects in lower framerates. I don't know why this is, but its been bug reported in the past, including reports I've submitted myself.)

PC specs before the upgrade:
AMD FX-8350
16Gb DDR3 RAM
GTX1070 8GB

After:
AMD Ryzen 5 1600x
16Gb DDR4
GTX1070 8GB

As you'll be able to see by looking at the before/after benchmarks, the 1% and .1% lows with the 8350 are below 60fps, yes, but it was for a very small amount of time and only really happen in the form of stuttering when initially entering stations or on initial loading of a planet surface. Otherwise the experience was smooth, if not overly fast. Post-upgrade its a non-issue entirely. So having even a semi-modern PC, Elite should run without issue and be able to handle multiple lightsources. I would think the same would be true for consoles, though admittedly I've no experience with the game on consoles specifically.

 

[ebbrell]

I'm surprised the detail os higher at high. Looking in the config file the graphics are higher or the same when choosing ultra, maybe to high when using 1080p


this may make the high look nicer.
i generally change the xml file and force the utra settings to be higher than high if they are the same.

ultra should be better than high wouldn't think

do you have screens to show the difference?

 

[Paroxsym]

You can see it in framerate differences as well as visually. I lost ~15fps switching from ultra to high, and looking at the detail on planet surfaces was a dead giveaway. Originally I reported it during the 2.3 beta as trying to find specific, mapped, and known surface features became nearly impossible in some cases due to the surface becoming blurred above 1.5km when on ultra settings. I lost the bear share of my screenshots when my storage drive died about a month ago. My FDL is currently parked at Beagle Point, Beagle 2 to be precise. Give me a bit and I can probably get you an example. Even though its a little off-topic, haha

Edit: Its also worth noting that that was with the old 8350 cpu, as well. I suspect the 1600x won't suffer the same framerate loss. I've not run this test in the last few weeks since the upgrade.

 

[Jack Schitt]

I used the term 'CPU' in the most generic sense possible.

That's the Currys PC World definition of CPU: the mystery box into which the monitor, keyboard and other gubbins gets plugged.

If by coder you mean: "gamer's who have read up a bunch of stuff about games development and played a lot of games but have no actual experience in engine or game development."

Yeah, sometimes the enthusiast wagglers can be worse than the professional wagglers. The professionals know when to just let it dangle, so to speak.

 

[Paroxsym]

Apologies for the semi-hijack, OP.

But here is the High/Ultra comparisons. High on the right, Ultra on the left. 1fps difference between the two, with Ultra being the 1frame faster, so the FPS loss is negligible since the upgrade. It looks like they've fixed it, at least at this distance from the surface, Ultra is now at least equal to High. But there is still no appreciable difference. Somewhat disappointing.

 

[Stachel]

You do know that FDev have been using the Cobra engine for a long time. Why on earth would they get another game engine learn how to use it etc when they have a perfectly adequate one

Because they don't have a perfectly adequate one. Did you you miss the title of the thread??

which they know how to use already.

This game gets new bugs in every update, taking months to fix. Trivial improvements are "too difficult". Simple fixes like getting the mouse to work properly in the galaxy map are apparently impossible.

These are not signs of "they know how to use it already".

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Because they don't have a perfectly adequate one. Did you you miss the title of the thread??

I consider an in-house solution to be better; both for costs and for expansion/upgrading of said tool.
I dunno, maybe it's just the developer in me that prefers to be able to modify on an as-needed basis, a tool I work with and have complete modification rights to, as opposed to having to work around existing engines limitations because the current developer of the engine has their own SDLC and schedule they work on.

This game gets new bugs in every update, taking months to fix. Trivial improvements are "too difficult". Simple fixes like getting the mouse to work properly in the galaxy map are apparently impossible.

These are not signs of "they know how to use it already".

Of course not, you don't work there.
However, considering that COBRA has been around since 1988, it's pretty clear someone knows what (s)he's doing with it.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Yep, 'performence' reasons. Even though I can run Elite at maxmimum settings plus EDFX effects (graphics mod) at 60 fps and record at 1080pfps at the same time with a non-top tier rig we must limit visual effects for some reason I can't explain.

In all honesty it's total bull and this needs to be improved but not as a priority TBH. Explosions and other effects need to be upgarded to a 3D effect rather than a 2D image. Same for lasers and general visibility of plasma accelerators as they tend to come with a RNG version of a cloaking device.
Furthermore increase draw distance and do not vanish details like cargo hatches from 200 meters.
Lastly add transition effects for objects on the ground so the terrain around stones and crashed ships does NOT look like the other 99.9% of the visible terrain.

However, these are some minor improvements I am okay with as they are not gamebreaking and should not se tas a priority while we have insanely bad networking and balance at the moment.

 

[nanite2000]

IT WASN'T THEIR MONEY. How much dev time was used just to get thier inhouse engine to do things a 3rd party engine could have done from day 1? Business 101 - when using loaned money - to mean it's not out of your personal pocket - you should ensure that you get to where you need to be in the most efficient manner with the least wastage, because time is ticking and the people that gave you that money for this specific purpose are waiting for results. [and for the investors, thier returns plus profits].

That's my belief of the underlying reason why release was "rushed", to start getting more cash to carry on from the playerbase, becuase there's only so many times you can milk a cow [or investor].

It's clearly escaped your notice, but I feel should tell you some people have been following, reading, going to gamescon etc etc about this game since the Kickstarter. That gives them a pretty well informed background into the game, FDev and all things related. That's four years worth of informed opinion. I know someone who has gone further and looked at the company itself and certain shenanigins with their tax returns and board members - all public record btw. It makes for VERY interesting reading.

I was all set to do a full and detailed response to your comments, until I saw these, and realised that any response I gave would be moot since these are really the only parts of your comment that count.

How did this thread go from talking about multiple light sources in Elite to slanderous/libellous comments about Frontier's business practices?

No offence, but you come across as way too bitter and jaded to engage with.

 

[nanite2000]

That's the Currys PC World definition of CPU: the mystery box into which the monitor, keyboard and other gubbins gets plugged. .

Hah! Fair enough.

But, irrespective of which processor does the work, are you telling me that accurate modelling of light sources is *not* one of the most process intensive operations you can do in 3D rendering?

 

[Stachel]

I dunno, maybe it's just the developer in me that prefers to be able to modify on an as-needed basis, a tool I work with and have complete modification rights to, as opposed to having to work around existing engines limitations because the current developer of the engine has their own SDLC and schedule they work on.

You'd really benefit from updating your knowledge on current industry standard game engines e.g.

Amazon Lumberyard is a free AAA game engine deeply integrated with AWS and Twitch – with full source.

considering that COBRA has been around since 1988

I've seen no evidence that's true. The first mention of Cobra is 2013. It isn't credited on any earlier Frontier game I've seen.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

You'd really benefit from updating your knowledge on current industry standard game engines e.g.

Amazon Lumberyard is a free AAA game engine deeply integrated with AWS and Twitch – with full source.

Lumberyard launched in Feb of last year. So, not relevant....
And no, they can't just change from the COBRA engine to Lumberyard; and yes, I know Star Citizen could do the switch but that is because SC was on CryEngine, and Lumberyard is built from CryEngine architecture. COBRA is not.

Even if Frontier chose to go with another engine, there are usually licensing fees and royalty fees involved (not with Lumberyard, but I've already covered why ED has not switched to that). For example, UE4 on their FAQ states the following: "Once you ship your game or application, you pay Epic 5% of gross revenue after the first $3,000 per product per calendar quarter." - https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/faq

Why on earth would a company want to pay another company for a game engine when they already have one? They wouldn't, especially one that they've had for so long.

I've seen no evidence that's true. The first mention of Cobra is 2013. It isn't credited on any earlier Frontier game I've seen.

RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 (2004) and Kinectimals (2010).
In fact, the COBRA engine was written specifically for RCT3 in 2004.
However, COBRA is actually more than an engine; it's an entire set of tools and techniques that have been developed and honed since 1988.

But, if you don't want to believe any of this.. that's your problem.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

I seem to remember a comment from FDEV that the current lighting engine is merely a simple placeholder for a better system they are working on.
However, that was over a year ago and it was in a forum post about the bright/dark side of planets if I remember correctly.
No way I'm gonna find that discussion again, but maybe some other people remember?

PS: That gives some hope for improvement, but who knows if it will ever see the light of day.
I honestly have the impression development of Elite slowed down dramatically in recent days and seeing critical bugs stay in the game for over 2 months don't really convince me otherwise.

 

[Stachel]

Why on earth would a company want to pay another company for a game engine when they already have one?

To get one that is not full of bugs, doesn't need the user to port it himself to each new platform (as Frontier have just had to do for PS4) ... and gives high-performance results. (Such as more than one light source at a time.)

In fact, the COBRA engine was written specifically for RCT3 in 2004.

You have some evidence of that?