Haven't grinded .. grindered .. ground (?) a single second in the game yet.
If I'm bored with my current activity, I switch to a different one. Plenty of stuff to do.
Might not add to my virtual bank account at the same rate, but as a fixed weapon Cobra MK III is as much dogfight fun as it gets and a 2 mil Hauler (most expensive being the advanced scanner) a quite decent exploration ship, loads of diverse fun can be had long before any grind is required.
p.s. they could "kill" the grind completely by adding cooldowns and long restock times on every profitable activity, basically forcing players to more diverse activities. But why should they, if some players enjoy that kind of mindnumbingness?
Oh i was playing for a long time the "just do what is fun" style, problem is one day you want to do different stuff and now you need that rank or a certain amount of credits to pull it off.
(no not the new big ships) so you need to earn that credit you need and.. grind the rank! to get where you want to.
Systhem permits for example? Grind
Faction ships? Grind!
I did for over an year now play with the smaller ships, now i want to fly the bigger ones... Grind!
I calculated that with my fun playstyle i would have taken me about 6 years to get into an anaconda. A little bit long if i want to get there before they shut down the servers.
Sooo do you support the 3rd party tools or not. i cant work it out from your psychoanalysis. I think if they had this game in the stone-age we all would have starved. I also wonder how Stonehenge would fit into this theory as it seems to have been planned. I think they had the Coriolis stone age monument planner.
I support the Api but only because for whatever reason Frontier does not want to add the functionality to the game itself, in an ideal world you would not need the API. Think your ship computer collects all market data and shipyard and outfitting data, you could trade this data packets with stations and other commanders (kinda like it is done in RL today with consumer data for example, a new commodity! new source of gameplay fun!)
With stonehenge i guess people where pretty proud to move one of the stone even a few meters, it would be even today with all the tools avaiable not an minor building project, now consider a few hundred guys dowing it with nothing more than sticks stones and muscle.
Besides such projects did not start with "hmm lets build a f.. big stonehenge" usual is that they used wood, smaller stones, bigger stones. Each generation topping the last. And it was not much an game for them, it was to improve there lifes (and regarding starving, at that time food preservation and farming where already known, but a few thousand years are in bilogigal and evolutionairy terms nothing, at least not with humans reproduction cycles, we are slowpokes in that regard))
Did already a few times. Api is needed because Frontier does not implement the tools that would make the game fun and does not care much about actual gameplay and more about game mechanics <shrug> so it is for the users to create the tools needed, so we need the api.
It is over an half year back that i brought up that Frontier should give players the ability to create stations from modules and after reviewing them put them into game to quickly populate the bubble with individualised stations, players can collect "favs" and even implement new builds un supervised, kinda after they showed trust worthy.
Bethesda had good success with its modder scene becoming a pool for very good official gamedesigners, they knida managed to breed there own pool of talent this way.
So an API would maybe serve as an tool to create some thign similar, people who write good stuff for ED and end up tasked official and paid by frontier doing that.
I'm the initiator of EDDN, co-author of EDCodex and I have signed this open letter.
You seem to have missed or have chosen to ignore an important point of the open letter. It was not said explicitly in the open letter (as to keep the communication open) but stated multiple times in this thread. I'm confident you have read it. Can we please have a statement from FD if the current usage of the iPhone companion app API is ILLEGAL OR LEGAL.
Last year, the 25th of September 2014 we had a similar situation. EMDN and the MD tool both created by Andreas. EDDN (initiated by me) is basically a resurrected EMDN and EDMC/EDCE/EDAPI are basically MD (market dump) but don't hook into the ED client but use the iPhone companion app API. That day FD changed their data access policy and EMDN/MD were deemed ILLEGAL - before it was tolerated/condoned. Andreas received this message from Michael Brookes see spoiler.
I''m closing this thread as we're no longer allowing tools that are accessing the game, its data, resources or communications.
We are considering an external API for future development.
Also all other tool authors of tools which were receiving data from EMDN but not using the MD tool (except Slopeys the BPC which was using it) received the following message. see spoiler.
We're no longer allowing tools which scrape the data directly from the game or through its communications. We will be considering an external API for future development, but for now these tools are not permitted.
I'm awaiting confirmation that this tool doesn't use this method, until I get that then this thread will be closed, pending removal.
As a general notice threads for tools that do not comply will be removed. I'm posting this in here and similar threads so everyone knows what's happening.
Basically all threads of tools which were receiving data from EMDN would be closed unless they removed EMDN support and Andreas did shut down EMDN. Note: EMDN did not scrape anything, it was just receiving and sending data.
FD can do a couple of things.
1) Again threaten all tool authors which are using EDDN as a data resource that their threads will be closed unless EDDN support is removed. The authors of EDMC/EDCE/EDAPI don't have threads on the FD forum because they were removed/hidden earlier by FD. But FD can order their lawyers to send us all cease and desist letters. That is including me, EDDN runs on my server. I state that openly here. Note: The excellent coding has been done by Jamesremuscat and later AnthorNet. FD also knows that 99% of the data distributed by EDDN is ATM coming from the api tools. They can even sent a cease and desist letter to EDCodex (I'm co-author) and demand that companion tools info is removed.
2) Continue what they have done before since April/May 2015. Don't say anything and tolerate the usage of the companion app without telling us that they tolerate it, see also post #59. Leaving all tool authors in the dark and in uncertainty.
3) Go in dialogue with us (tool authors) to see if we can work something out. For example the suggested dump api, see post #226
4) Api tools are dished and all data coming to EDDN is from OCR tools. Those authors have tried their best but the truth is that its just not reliable enough...
5) Please make a suggestion. Addressed to anyone here including Zac/FD
Lets face it. The companion tools will be used. The genie is out of the bottle. They are all open sourced python scripts and all commanders have the sourcode (EDMC is available as installable and sourcode) and any one can fork it or continue to use the existing versions if the authors closes shop and go home. The only way to make sure that data is not distributed is to force EDDN to shutdown. Note: the api tools send data to more sites or work together with more tools. I for one see EDDN as a neutral distributor of data. We can NOT distuingish where data is coming from. YES there is a "softwareName" and "softwareVersion" tag in each received message BUT as all companion tools are open sourced the ONLY thing a commander has to do (or done for them in a forked version) is to set those tags to EliteOCR or RegulatedNoise (OCR tools) and EDDN sees only OCR messages from that point on - which is legal.
TO MAKE THIS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR. ED IS THEIR (FD) PROGRAM THEY CAN DICTATE WHAT IS ILLEGAL OR NOT AND THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO SO AND THEY CAN ACT AS THEY SEE FIT. Its also the right of every tool author to decide whether or not they continue with their programs or close shop and go home. They after all have spend hundreds or even 1000+ hours in their tools. I know I have for EDDN and EDCodex combined. I have no idea what they will do. I know for sure it will cripple the current third party eco-system. Now and for the foreseeable future. At least the ones which rely on EDDN (and the api tools). Those are tools using market data, shipyard info and outfitting info.
To quote themroc of eddb: "But most important: Please speak with us!
A simple conversation about what's possible and what not would be a simple yet very powerful process. Also, I'm sure nobody expects you to give us that powerful API tomorrow. We would be soooo happy already if you give us anything. We can be happy with the most simple data. A single thing can already bring joy to many players if manifested in 3rd party tool.
There reason why I think trade routes should not be on the website is cause it spoils the game and tell you where to go to make easy money, people should learn trade routes by playing the game and communicate with other people, not having a website tell you where to go to make money, that's lazy and gamebreaking, it's like a cheat
When I get a chance to play it is usually only for a brief burst of time. Typically it is for an hour at a time, a couple of times a week. And that is if I am lucky and dont have to stop because my kid is screaming in the next room because the other kid is in his personal space. I have been playing the game for about a year now and have just finished saving up enough money to finish outfitting my T6 so I can actually make some decent runs. If using a trade site is cheating then I have to say it is a pretty poor cheating tool.
I understand where Marc Lock is coming from but for the people that don't have a lot of time to play tools like these are invaluable. Rather then spending my hour of game time looking for a trade route the old school way (Which usually takes me an hour to find a profitable route) I can jump on the site, find a decent route and make a hundred thousand credits. The game is just to vast for me to dive into it and learn everything the old school way. With the tools, at my current rate I am hoping to buy an Anaconda sometime in late 2016 or early 2017. Without them I might as well give up that dream all together.
P.S. I have tried my hand at Bounty hunting but found that in the span of an hour, and with my skills at missing everything I aim at, I made more money trading. Making 100,000 credits in an hour was great but when I have to replace my ship after blowing up it became a wash. Just wanted to get this in there before everyone starts telling me there are other income sources.
Fascinating discussion; hadn't realized that people were so passionate about how others play the game. Reminds me of the folks who are so upset with Mobius that they want to sneak in and crash the party by turning it into PVP.
FD: Please add my support for the open letter. ED/ED:H is a great game, and the third party tools (from Coriolis to Market Connector to Trade Dangerous) all bring an added dimension. For those who want to play with them, great. For those that don't - then don't. It's rather like CQC; I'm personally glad folks like it, but I don't play it. Nothing against shooters, just not my cup of tea with this game.
Frankly, I'd rather see the third party tools go a step further - buy them from the developers, integrate them directly into the game, and sell them as add-ons. I'd be happy to drop a few quid and get the ability to effectively plan (call it a "trade computer" or some such). Or at the least - finalize the API and let the third party developers support and sell directly as "mini apps" through the FD store - you'd get a small revenue stream, they'd get some monetary reward for their labors of love, you'd have some quality control - and those who want the tools could have them inside the game.
Does anyone believe that in the galaxy as set in ED there won't be trade data communications? Galnet alone proves communications exist - and traders need two things in order to succeed: information, to know what's moving where, and time, to decide what to do with the information. Somehow, they'll make it happen.
OMG, Spoiler sites, if a large part of the community can't play without them then there is a huge issue, gamers becoming too lazy to find traderoutes the old way ? How is it possible they are even sharing that data? Doesn't it completely spoil the game if everything is already on a website?
If you haven't tried any of the trading tools or even looked into them, you can hardly give an informed opinion on how game-breaking, lazy, or cheating they are. I apologize if I sound harsh, but comments made from ignorance do not add anything to the discussion.
While I haven't yet been aware of such tools, I wholly support them. Since they totally lack in-game.
Having been to a few systems, I do NOT wish to sit down with pen & paper to figure out where the ship I bought earlier was found. But still, that's what I'm doing now. Or would have if I didn't have my laptop beside me for this very purpose.
Aimlessly hopping through systems trying to find my upgrades is not my idea of fun. Having to write down every system I go through, all stations with what ships and whatnot is pointless. It kills the immersion, and makes it more of a job than actual game.
I feel awkward having to write down these things separately. It's actually nostalgic, and I could do very well without the nostalgia. I'm done mapping bards tale dungeons on paper. That's a forgotten chapter. It's in the past.
In this year and age, we have the concept of quantum communication where distance doesn't matter.
We have internet (duh), and all information at our fingertips.
But sitting in a ship in a galaxy a thousand years away;
trade data is unavailable unless you plug yourself in at the dock
shipyard locations and their ships from visited systems are unavailable
upgrades(outfitting) from visited systems are unavailable
information "cloud" storage is unavailable in the case of the ship's demise.
quests are unavailable unless docked.
Let me guess - we will get a new version with computer upgrades soon. Right? Right?!
I would really love DB, Michael or someone from FD would seriously talk with community about this. It just needs to be organized properly.
It's hard to open the arms to community to create/add something, but it's pretty minor and just WILL ADD UP LIFE to the game. It's not like someone will put their dirty hands in the source code for the game. Please just be ... more open, FD.
Possibilities are (not only API-wise) are endless:
1) Ads, ad variants on stations and ports. Possibly even videos (JPEG of Zachary Hudson is too static, to my taste )
2) Some meaningful news.
3) Station/port variants
4) Some trading tools
5) System descriptions?
6) Planet renaming. It's not cool to have 'LHS 124 A4' named planets and moons anymore. "Where do you live? - On a station near HIP 20315 C4-1 Planet".
7) Possibly some new skins?
8) Some newer, more random NPC names/chat phrases, maybe? We can help create that.
Good job I've found you. You're hard to track down.
I would really love DB, Michael or someone from FD would seriously talk with community about this. It just needs to be organized properly.
It's hard to open the arms to community to create/add something, but it's pretty minor and just WILL ADD UP LIFE to the game. It's not like someone will put their dirty hands in the source code for the game. Please just be ... more open, FD.
Possibilities are (not only API-wise) are endless:
1) Ads, ad variants on stations and ports. Possibly even videos (JPEG of Zachary Hudson is too static, to my taste )
2) Some meaningful news.
3) Station/port variants
4) Some trading tools
5) System descriptions?
6) Planet renaming. It's not cool to have 'LHS 124 A4' named planets and moons anymore. "Where do you live? - On a station near HIP 20315 C4-1 Planet".
7) Possibly some new skins?
8) Some newer, more random NPC names/chat phrases, maybe? We can help create that.
Good job I've found you. You're hard to track down.
Off Topic. Not sure if it was deliberate but that line is remarkable/almost the same one as what Stephen Hawking (played by Benedict Cumberbatch) said in the (brilliant) movie "Hawking" when he delivered his Phd Thesis to his supervisor Dennis Sciama and he references Roger Penrose which gave him his Eureka moment and made his thesis possible. Phd Thesis title "'Singularities and the Geometry of Space-Time' aka the birth of the Big Bang theory. It put a smile on my face.
I am fully supportive of OP and am a huge fan of all the things that have been built using this data.
However
I note that we are in Holiday season and I don't really expect much useful progress on this from FDev until they get back from Thailand or wherever you Pommies go when the weather is freezing, and you've got some annual leave up.
I certainly think this requires thoughtful attention from more that just the Skeleton Staff that are keeping the hamster wheels turning.
I am also one of the 'encumbered' with real-life diversions that don't allow me the time to truly explore the ED galaxy. A few hours here and there is the best it gets. Even with the tools, the challenge is not lost (still need to get there). I started with Elite on a C128, pencil and paper (I see the third party tools as an extension of that). Yes, I run in a windowed environment so easier to check potential trade routes then ALT-TAB.
Just saying I support the third part tools (until that functionality is part of the game). Geez guys; today I can find the best price on a TV anywhere in the US, buy and have shipped to my door in a few days. To tell me in 30(something) I can't get a commodity price on something a few systems away? (Just saying)
I support the OP, and (as a minor FD shareholder) hope for a positive outcome.
I've just sent Zac Antonaci and the community managers team a PM. CC-ed Anthornet and themroc.
I know full well that they are just the spokesmen of FD and are just relaying the official policy of FD. I've asked them to relay my PM to the ppl in charge like Michael Brookes and David Braben. I want to make sure that my post in the "open letter" thread has been read and received by FD so that nothing gets lost. I've stated clearly that we (tool authors) are very eager to start a dialogue with them - if they chose to do so. Its in their hands now.
I've stated clearly that I know its Xmas holiday and that a real response needs consulting with the ppl in charge and that I'm hoping for an answer next week. We need a clear statement of whether or not the usage of the companion api tools is allowed or not. NOT receiving a response at all is also a response BUT the uncertaintly then remains.
To be in compliance with the FD forum rules I can't WITHOUT their permission post their response so I've asked for their permission to do so. Not sure if I can post my initial PM to them here. Perhaps a moderator can tell me if that is allowed. I keep you all informed.
I'm hoping for a bright future for the third party eco-system which can/will will flourish with the blessing of FD and an official api in some form.
With kind regards,
Wolverine2710 (50)
Initiator of EDDN, co-author of EDCodex, professional software developer. Usually a very easy going bloke.
Other than that, thank you for your support with the community. Community created content and tools are a fantastic way to add more help support or richness to the game and we do appreciate your efforts greatly.
Yours sincerely,
Zac
Thank you Zac, this statement tells me all i need to know, 3P users we are legit. common sense has prevailed. Key words (Fantastic) (Richness) (Appreciate) 3P developers keep doing what you do so well.
OMG, Spoiler sites, if a large part of the community can't play without them then there is a huge issue, gamers becoming too lazy to find traderoutes the old way ? How is it possible they are even sharing that data? Doesn't it completely spoil the game if everything is already on a website?
I love players like this with their thoughts that a game like ED should be played old school, pen and paper, the 'old way'. As i've pointed out in similar threads of this nature, not all of us have as much time as we'd like to play ED, so a little help in the form of informative 3rd party websites is the best way to go in the hope of making a reasonable profit when trading for example.
The game is set in the year 3300, where i'm sure some galactic equivalent of some form of price comparison site will be available where pilots can see the best places to go to get items they need, best places to trade etc. We have this technology today, so why the hell would i use a pen and paper and drag my fat round system by system trying to work out where to go to sell my hold full of fish, when i should be able to look it up on some convenient site that tells me there's a system 10LY away that suddenly need some?
Gamers that want to play the game the old fashioned way really need to have a look at themselves and if they are that desperate to play that way, then download the original BBC version and play that. ED has moved things on, let's use apps and websites in the year 3300 because the technology is already here, today in the year 2015, so enough of the old school, let's get FD to sort out an in game tool that benefits players, because if not, these other fine sites will continue to give us the information we need, because most of us need this information now, today. The technology is here, let's use it.
Pen and paper in the year 3300? Don't make me laugh
I gotta agree with the OP tho - as this kind of data sharing will only help add to the player involvement. The easier it becomes for other players to get into the game would also be a good thing for ED as it would mean it becomes easier for more and more players to get into and enjoy this game.
On a side note; for the people here - if they ever read this - when was the last time anyone did a courier mission? Or bought the trade data or system data from exploration in the galaxy map? That's in-game stuff.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that basically the API? Well, not specifically, but the idea... shared data sent or picked up. So I fail to see the issue of having such shared data available for someone to go and search for and use.
If anything I really wish they just added that stuff in-game like highest and lowest known buy locations - the places you've bought trade data for, but with 3rd parties working on compiling it I see no issue either.
Its data and info in the 3300 - we can do it in 2015, I can't see why not.
Lore-wise, you are allowed in-universe to have the kind of information that the high galactic powers give you access to. Basically, you are a puppet of the big powers behind the scenes (represented by the devs ) and even a triple elite Status and the biggest ship in the game is probably nothing compared to the ressources and networks those powers have at their disposal. You're still just a pawn in their game.
GalNet, Universal Cartographics are all sanctioned, other things not sanctioned or even supressed.
Now humans and especially us freethinking spacepilots are a crafty folk. You don't scoot trouth the stars without your trusted Ductape and a towel, so getting kept "in the dark" is not an option for the always nosey spacecowboy.
Hence the creation of "rogue" communication networks, NOT using the official infrastructures. Smuggling 2.0.
And yea, they could implement all that in the game - but why bother when there's an active community already providing all that?
They could .. and I might even go as far as say "have to" .. aknowledge the community actions and as asked here, sanction the data used by the community and give the tool developers a clear and stable enrivonment to work with.
Doesn't have to be complex, as stated, a simple Clientside API Dump/Log function that can be collected by 3rd parties and is sanctioned by Frontier would be more than enough.
