Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

On a side note; for the people here - if they ever read this - when was the last time anyone did a courier mission? Or bought the trade data or system data from exploration in the galaxy map? That's in-game stuff.

I do quite a few courier missions as a means to get to an Economy type or System I know I can trade from or usually have a good variety of missions. And since I've downgraded from an Asp Explorer to Scout, I don't have the slots to use a Discovery scanner so I find myself paying for trade data from time to time. More often since 2.0 because surface stations won't appear unless you have a scanner or pay for it.
I use what's in the game basically and don't use the 3rd party tools and have fun with it.

You can only pay for trade date for systems within 20ly's I think, it's definitely limited.

 

[Boff'in]

Would the 3rd party sites exist if
1) We could store trade information in-game from stations we've been.
2) bookmark systems we've been to.
3) set up waypoints beyween bookmark systems (i.e. a trade route)
4) sell station data / trade route data as we would do with stellar cartography. The longer the wait between information of a station the more money.

People are putting these API's together free of charge.
The established high profits 'rare' routes are already out there for people to just google up and use to their hearts content and Frontier Can't do much about it.
And they will still exist.
However In-game those routes can be sold to both traders AND pirates.
Trading routes could be perks various factions, minor factions and stations could have their own trade routes which they care about.
THE BSG is moving stuff too and from the stations anyway.
Can't we sign up to "work" and lift that cargo for the BSG?
For any of these "trade routes"

Adding "timers" to certain leg of the journeys baking them into the BSG and twisting them to break the flow of them.
make certain legs of the journey more defendable.
make more "game" out of the issue.

I'm sture these are all discussions Frontier have had. But again I feel the inclussion of a bookmarking, notepade, trade data tool would be a boon to the game

 

[wolverine2710]

Lore-wise, you are allowed in-universe to have the kind of information that the high galactic powers give you access to. Basically, you are a puppet of the big powers behind the scenes (represented by the devs ) and even a triple elite Status and the biggest ship in the game is probably nothing compared to the resources and networks those powers have at their disposal. You're still just a pawn in their game.
GalNet, Universal Cartographics are all sanctioned, other things not sanctioned or even suppressed.
Now humans and especially us freethinking spacepilots are a crafty folk. You don't scoot through the stars without your trusted Ductape and a towel, so getting kept "in the dark" is not an option for the always nosey spacecowboy.

Hence the creation of "rogue" communication networks, NOT using the official infrastructures. Smuggling 2.0.
And yea, they could implement all that in the game - but why bother when there's an active community already providing all that?

They could .. and I might even go as far as say "have to" .. acknowledge the community actions and as asked here, sanction the data used by the community and give the tool developers a clear and stable enrivonment to work with.
Doesn't have to be complex, as stated, a simple Clientside API Dump/Log function that can be collected by 3rd parties and is sanctioned by Frontier would be more than enough.

Wanted to Rep +1 but can't. The Galactic Powers don't allow me;-) I have already given you a rep +1 here in this thread. You obviously make posts which I like. This one made me smile. Which is good ;-) Somehow I needed that. Thanks for that..... The same applies to Shar, same GP which don't let me. Also a smile here. Its going to be a better day then I thought after all ;->

Also a BIG thanks to everyone who is polite,civilized, respectful (towards cmdrs with a different opinion then their own - whatever that opinion is) here. Things in that department are also looking better and better. The start of this thread was lets put it this way "rocky" and the attitude of some commanders "different".

 

[Zac Antonaci]

Hey all I just wanted to follow up with a second reply here.

For those requesting clarification on the use of the campanion API and also.the future of the API.

To clarify the previous post. There is no updates at the moment. I will make sure the suggestions and requests are passed on. Hopefully we will be able to have more news in the new year for the possibilities of new API support and clarify the use of the campanion API.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Obediah Joel]

Spoiler

Dear Frontier Developments and Elite: Dangerous team,

I'm writing to you on behalf of a large part of the third party tool developers community and the many thousands of players who use these tools.
Please note that this open letter was written and corrected by multiple authors from the third party tools community.

To get started, let me first introduce myself:

I am AnthorNet, the lead developer on the EDDN project (also ED-TD.space and EDSM.net).
EDDN’s main goal is to provide data on the availability of commodities, modules, and ships in the Elite Dangerous galaxy to third-party websites and tools.
EDDN usually carries around 5,000 messages per day, and cumulatively 2 million messages since May 2015.

The following websites/software use data from EDDN to provide players with ways to find profitable trade routes and to find starports that stock the ships and modules that they want:

• CORIOLIS.io (Monthly: 1M+ views / 80K+ users / 350K sessions)
• EDDB.io (Monthly: 1M+ views / 70K+ users / 280K sessions)
• EDDiscovery
• ED-TD.space (Monthly: 300K+ views / 30K+ users / 60K sessions)
• ELITETRADINGTOOL.co.uk (Monthly: 600K+ views / 50K+ users)
• ETN.io (Monthly: 90K+ views / 25K+ users)
• INARA.cz (Monthly: 1M+ views / 35K+ users / 120K sessions)
• ROGUEY.co.uk (Monthly: 500K+ views / 50K+ users / 115k sessions)
• Trade dangerous via Maddavo Market Share (MMS) / EDAPI

The fact that these sites exist and generate a significant number of visitors demonstrates that there is high demand from your player-base for the information and tools that they provide;
information that isn’t provided in an easily discoverable form in-game.

The majority of the data carried by EDDN has been sourced from thousands of individual players using the open API that you created to support your iOS Companion App.

On every update to the core ED game, this API temporarily ceases to be functional which we understand perfectly.
But with the 1.5-2.0 release, the downtime was longer than before, hence our open letter.
A large part of your community was stuck for days and has waited for a statement about the API’s continuation (or not) to come from on your side.
Sadly nothing was said officially, and only random testing by the community lead us to realise that the API was once again back online.

We understand that you are very busy with the improvements to the core game and there is probably not much time left over to concentrate on the API.
Parts of the community responded by reverting to OCR methods to keep the EDDN data at least temporarily updated during the API’s downtime,
but it is noticeable that trade data all but dried up, during the API downtime..

Let's face it, we all know that players prefer to have a one-click method to assist and plan trading than having to juggle with multiple screenshots and potentially misinterpreted OCR data.
With outdated data and/or heavily time-consuming methods to update information (whether locally for just the player in isolation, or the community at large), it will inevitably lead to loss of interest in trading,
because for some people it will also mean that the game/trading will become more inaccessible for them. That also means fewer players in the game, which is something that nobody wants.

Your Companion App API is one intuitive way for players to push data easily to all the community, just like the game’s verbose logging system does for online flight logs.
As mentioned above, EDDN is handling around 5,000 messages per day, it means less amount of requests to your API server (EDDN can handle up to three type of messages for one API call).
Compared to the traffic-levels of the web tools mentioned, we think it's a reasonably marginal number of API requests, and we cannot imagine it should unacceptably stress your servers (but please advise us, if this is the case!)

This recent temporary outage has lead to more pressure from the community for a proper API, and the fear is that not having any sort of API will lead to a loss of motivation
from third party apps developers and bad feeling in the tool-using player community. And we are not talking just about few players, but tens of thousands of them at least.

We also understand that you may be worried that providing a proper API from Frontier Developments may demand a lot of your resources to manage it,
but I and the third party developer community think that you can easily let your community build the management tools for you.
We already done it, and players think we’re doing it well, and there are more alternatives in the tool ‘market’ than they could dream of.
By having EDDN sharing the underlying trade information, the door is even open for new developers to join the adventure.

We hope that our time and effort given into these community sites and tools wasn't wasted and that the Frontier's attitude isn't that such kind of sites are unwelcome - but similarly,
if that is the case, we really would appreciate knowing this now, rather than later, after yet more effort and work has been expended.

But if we are correct in our hope, and if it is true that Frontier does want a vibrant, growing community of third-party tools working around your game for the benefit of loyal and committed players,
please engage with your external development community on the subject of supplying an API for third-party tools that you are happy to officially support us using.
We are here, willing, able and eager, to support you in the advancement of Elite: Dangerous, and we’d love to talk to you!.

Authors:

• AnthorNet (EDDN Lead developer, ED-TD.space, EDSM.net)
• Artie (INARA.cz)
• Biobob (ED-BOARD.net, Co-author EDcodex)
• Cmdr Thrudd (ELITETRADINGTOOL.co.uk)
• cmmcleod (CORIOLIS.io)
• Finwen (EDDiscovery)
• Genar-Hofoen (Captain's Log)
• Joe113 (ETN.io)
• Roguey (ROGUEY.co.uk)
• Themroc (EDDB.io)
• Wolverine2710 (EDDN initiator, Co-author EDcodex)

PS: I tried to add as much third party tools author as I could, but if I missed you, please forgive me and send me a PM so I can add you to the letter if you feel concerned as we are.



-------------------------------------------------------

+1 - these tools are a fantastic addition to the overall enjoyability of the game - please create a third party app so they can continue to be developed to there full potential.

 

[robbyp]

All I can add is that Frontier should consider the API a high priority for the new year. The amount of good will and positivity that you will get if you launch an offical API (even if its just the same as the current one but officially supported for third parties) would be tremendous.

Most people rely on one way or another on the third party tools, and the more eco-system we have around Elite the more rich the game experiance will be.

 

[Garrand]

If all 5 of you leave, the game will survive, just leave your money we want that, also we like good ideas for improving the game so leave them. this thread is about support for the 3rd party tool which appears to have overwhelming support and we will defend them from players that accuse us of being cheats, but after saying that, I,m not at all sure your one of them so cool your jets.

Can you read? I want API access to be fully supported.

 

[Shar]

Would the 3rd party sites exist if
1) We could store trade information in-game from stations we've been.
2) bookmark systems we've been to.
3) set up waypoints beyween bookmark systems (i.e. a trade route)
4) sell station data / trade route data as we would do with stellar cartography. The longer the wait between information of a station the more money.

People are putting these API's together free of charge.
The established high profits 'rare' routes are already out there for people to just google up and use to their hearts content and Frontier Can't do much about it.
And they will still exist.
However In-game those routes can be sold to both traders AND pirates.
Trading routes could be perks various factions, minor factions and stations could have their own trade routes which they care about.
THE BSG is moving stuff too and from the stations anyway.
Can't we sign up to "work" and lift that cargo for the BSG?
For any of these "trade routes"

Adding "timers" to certain leg of the journeys baking them into the BSG and twisting them to break the flow of them.
make certain legs of the journey more defendable.
make more "game" out of the issue.

I'm sture these are all discussions Frontier have had. But again I feel the inclussion of a bookmarking, notepade, trade data tool would be a boon to the game

Very good question and i think some of them would not exist, but now they do i,m not sure FD could do it better - due to time constraints not ability - but there here now and its sort of nice having all the extra developers using there skills for the rest of us, in my ideal elite world FD would work with and integrate some of these apps, warning if anyone tries to take my Coriolis ship planner away from me i will cry.

 

[Shar]

Can you read? I want API access to be fully supported.

Hmmm interestingly enough i can read but sometimes misunderstand, i also have a bad habit of shooting first and asking the corpse if there OK, its an empire thing. On a serious note i,m happy your supportive of the 3Pdevs.

 

[samuelb]

This is a simulation in in the 34rd century, it is not only conceivable but likely that in that era a computerised system for the management of trade routes (a trade computer, if you like) would exist. No modern company schleps around for trade route information like this let alone in the, albeit fictitious, future. This for me is one of my biggest bugbears, a "realistic" simulator that all but completely ignores the advances the future would hold in terms of computers / computing (ironic given the main platform for the game). I appreciate that there are factors like the speed of light in communications, but if the realism were taken to this level then inter-system trading would be a pipe dream too. Relativity is far too complex a system to model in a game anyway, surely?. Is it really believable that commanders keep a pen and pad in their cockpits in this time period? Of course not. A trade tool is not a cheat, merely a realistic tool that would absolutely be available in reality in this era. Why do so many people think that common sense systems which make complex and evolving tasks easier are a form of cheating? Making life easier is cheating is it, well thank goodness humanity doesn't share your viewpoint, otherwise we would all still be hunting with spears.

 

[TheSisko]

You know what I'd love? A ED Galaxy map app. It would be great if you could play the game while having the galaxy map and your current location on a second screen. I don't know if such is thing is possible with the current API but if not, it would be nice if a new API would support this.

 

[WR3ND]

The best, and long-lasting games are those that encourage the fans to create add-ons, etc.
The authors of the tools have my gratitude and full support.
They do it for the game, not money, which makes their work that much better.

Yeah... I modded the crap out of Super Mario Brothers. (Joking)

On-line game modding? Not so much, unless it's for bots or the like. Content is for Frontier to worry about and is what will make or break the game in the long run.

 

[Boomer Kay]

No modern company schleps around for trade route information like this let alone in the, albeit fictitious, future. This for me is one of my biggest bugbears, a "realistic" simulator that all but completely ignores the advances the future would hold in terms of computers / computing (ironic given the main platform for the game).

As for realism ... my RL companie's most valuable Data is stored in an offline Datacenter somewhere in a bunker in Switzerland.
And working in IT security, I actively try to disable as much of the tracking the internet and "modern" data grabbing devices (even cars nowadays) have by default.

Seriously, if you'd be a tech savvy space pilot, you'd not want a permanent two way interface (GALNET is broadcast) into your main assets or keep a blackbox that meticulously records all your speeding violations and all other -possibly illegal in one system or another- activities.

 

[Deareim]

In 34rd century, you have FSD but no trading computer.
Lol FD.

All my gratitude to 3rd tool developers..

 

[DRY411S]

For my part, I think the best of both worlds is to make the API available for third parties to add value to the base game. If some of the incredible third-party tools were part of the game it would ruin it for some who don't want to be 'spoon fed', so an open fully supported API seems a good compromise.

Frontier in your most recent newsletter, you claim that the most important part of the game is the community, so please listen and act on the points made in this open letter.

 

[WR3ND]

In 34rd century, you have FSD but no trading computer.
Lol FD.

All my gratitude to 3rd tool developers..

I only managed to make up to around 3 million credits an hour back half a year ago when I was trading rares in a Cobra without using on-line trading lists apps. Finding the routes and items was probably one of the more fun aspects of it too.

The game's quality is thankfully not determined by telling players where everything is and how much it's going for.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

For my part, I think the best of both worlds is to make the API available for third parties to add value to the base game. If some of the incredible third-party tools were part of the game it would ruin it for some who don't want to be 'spoon fed', so an open fully supported API seems a good compromise.

Frontier in your most recent newsletter, you claim that the most important part of the game is the community, so please listen and act on the points made in this open letter.

The most important part of the game is that it stays financially viable, which is in equal parts determined by the community and their money, and the game content Frontier provides.

Releasing an API as well as server side software is only really important to me personally if the servers get shutdown.

 

[wolverine2710]

Hey all I just wanted to follow up with a second reply here.

For those requesting clarification on the use of the campanion API and also.the future of the API.

To clarify the previous post. There is no updates at the moment. I will make sure the suggestions and requests are passed on. Hopefully we will be able to have more news in the new year for the possibilities of new API support and clarify the use of the campanion API.

Sorry for any confusion.

As I said this morning I did send a PM to Zac. He responded and said that what he told me there in that PM response he would also basically post here in this thread and he has indeed done so. He said that ppl like Michael and co will be back in the office in the new year This I can understand as its the Xmas holiday.

This means the following. The standing order by Michael Brookes/FD will be in effect till we hear otherwise. As in - see spoiler.

Spoiler

1. Tool authors which have a tool that use the companion API to retrieve data from the FD can NOT create a thread here in the FD forums to promote it. Those will be closed/hidden by standing order of MB/FD
2. You CAN mention tools like EDMC/EDCE/EDAPI here in the forums. Caveat emperor: You WILL risk the fact that you get a friendly PM from a moderator if you link to the tool directly or promote it to extensively. If you create a post in a thread and mention the tool (with link) that risk is rather minimal - I've seen them enough/plenty in misc threads. If you have a highly visible thread like the 3rd party tools, EDCodex or EDDN thread the risk increases though. I've had my share of friendly PM's and/or redacts of my OP's/posts.
3. So far FD has NOT acted upon the tool authors of api tools NOR have they acted upon tool authors which use that data in their tool(s). Directly or indirectly (distributed by EDDN). As in a cease and desist letter.
4. So far FD has NOT acted upon users of companion API tools.

My interpretation: Basically it will be business as usual till FD will determine the legality of api tools. As in ILLEGAL or LEGAL or condoned. The api tools will be used and flourish, EDDN will transport the submitted messages and those messages (market data, ship info, outfitting) will be used in quite a lot of tools.

Outcome of this open letter:

• Positive: The legality of api tools will be discussed early next year. Also the possibility of a sanctioned API (in which form however) will be discussed early next year. AND we will be informed. This is more then we have achieved in the past 15 months.
• Negative: None so far. But that can change fast when FD has made their decision. Most tool authors must then decide how to act upon that. Shutdown for example EDDN or remove parts in their software which interfaces with files created by the api-tools should the api tools be flagged ILLEGAL.

I for one am happy with what has been achieved in this open letter. Thank you all commanders for your input, much appreciated
I hope for a positive outcome in the new year but we have to see how it pans out.

This is (probably one of) my last posts this year. Going to family and tomorrow there is a LOTS of fireworks which badly needs and will get my undevoted love and attention ;-)

 

[DCLXVI your God]

You know what I'd love? A ED Galaxy map app. It would be great if you could play the game while having the galaxy map and your current location on a second screen. I don't know if such is thing is possible with the current API but if not, it would be nice if a new API would support this.

If they could make something like that work, it would be great.

 

[KRONFROMGALVATRON]

Great to hear there will be some attention put towards this issue by FD. Cheers to all the hard working 3rd party app developers and lets hope for a positive outcome that enhances gameplay and enjoyment for those using apps and the API and ideally doesn't culminate in their disallowing use of the tools.

 

[eventure]

I strongly support this open letter.

As an 3rd party developer the game will be enriched by those all fine and useful tools, that are out. Reading around I found a post by bambam_ofc, where I think, it could be the right approch by FD to what is needed:

Here's a design for the 'API', in case FD need help

ED EVENT API:

* choose a log file somewhere consistently findable (%LOCALAPPDATA%\ED\events.log)
* add some write statements to the code exactly the same as the existing logging statements that write to the debug/net logs
* choose a simple ascii format for an 'event' that is consistent in the first few fields - I strongly recommend CSV
* when an event of interest occurs (like player docking), write a single line to the log, such as:
"2015-12-19","09:12:30","CMDR Bambam","GEAR_LOWERED","T-9"
"2015-12-19","09:12:33","CMDR Bambam","DOCKED","T-9","Tamar","Youll Gateway",10,"L"
"2015-12-19","09:12:35","CMDR Bambam","MARKET","Hydrogen Fuel",66,,1230
"2015-12-19","09:12:35","CMDR Bambam","MARKET","Performance Enhancers",6533,6644,43677
...
"2015-12-19","09:13:55","CMDR Bambam","PLAYERCHAT","!landed"

* overwrite this file each time the user starts the game.

ED COMMAND API:

* Allow local socket communication with simple ascii messages terminated with '\n', I recommend CSV
* choose some functions that would be callable from that socket-handling code and trigger the appropriate action, such as
REQUEST_DOCKING
BOOST_ENGINES
POWER,1,3,1
LOCALCHAT,"Docking completed"

More Advice:

* do not listen to your technical experts that say "no, that's not clever enough, we can do soooo much better than that"
* do not come up with a more sophisticated protocol because that's cleverer, like using XML for the data
* don't provide *any* api where 3rd party code has to 'request' information until you know what you're doing - this is a minefield to implement compared to what I've described above which makes the game pretty much independent of the add-on code.
* do not hold up the event api because you don't have the command api - they can (and should) be provided independently, the latter is 100 times more complex that the former , and it is a mistake to bundle the two things together.
* don't put stuff in the event api that could be worrying until it's thought through, like the 3D position of other players in the instance. It is first-person shooting that attracts the attention of teenagers looking for an exploit that really damages the game.
* the PLAYERCHAT event is really important for general player input, similarly the LOCALCHAT command. Really important.

FYI I'm an add-on developer for the BF/MoH series, have a PhD in Computer Science, and these recommendations aren't because I can't cope with something more complex - they're based on quite a few years experience of what it's realistic for the *game* developers to cope with.