Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments

[Patrick_68000]

Gaming has moved forward since 1984, people have better things to do than spend hours looking for trade routes.

And yet in the current real life, the majority of people think that to consume, consume, consume

 

[Shaamaan]

I really don't see the argument that third party tools are a "cheat".

If anything, than a "crutch", and often one that saves time.

Two minor examples:
a) Sure, you can use trade tools to quickly plot out a semi-decent trade route. But that's it - it'll be semi-decent. If you want a pristine, high-income trade route between two systems you'll likely need to find it yourself anyway.
b) When outfitting my ship I don't mind checking out nearby systems for the components I need, but after not being to find what I need in 2-3 systems things are starting to get annoying. Having a way to search for the nearest port where I can get what I want is great help. Actually, it's not "help" - it's an "anti-time-wasting mechanism".

Finally, the existence of these tools does not, in any way, impact someones ability to play without them.

 

[Topinambour]

Those third party tools are simply making your life less miserable. I suggest, if someone from FD takes the time to read this, they ignore the trolls and simply take into account the insane amount of visitors those sites get.

A personal anecdote, I happen to be working in the video game industry. One of the projects I worked on was an online multiplayer F2P game, which main selling points were its complexity and depth... And yet, they decided to not create an API, to instead focus on other functionalities. Sure, those other functionalities were cool, but in the end, the lack of an API really hurt their user experience and, in the end, concurrency. Can't give more details (NDA) but I personnally believe having a better, improved API support would be very helpful for most of your community.

 

[Bomber]

Lets face it, there will be 3rd party apps. If ED can agree to work with them all the better. I would even pay for 3rd party apps that were with the blessing of ED. I would rather pay towards their development (some of the cash going to ED) than pay for coloured letter bobbleheads

ED heres a chance to sell logo stamped pencils and pads for those wanting to remain 'old school'.
Its a big galaxy room for everyone

 

[Deareim]

Third party just adding functionalities that should already exist in the game if there was coherence within FD

 

[Boomer Kay]

Third party just adding functionalities that should already exist in the game if there was coherence within FD

The sheer number and versatility of the 3rd party tools makes the absence of an in-game equivalent actually quite positive for the game - at least in my vintage 1984 notebook.

And yea, I just registered to post my support for the 3rd party app developers and their open letter.

 

[Dejay]

Well imho FD really screwed the pooch on this one. ED needs modding support and definitely an API.

WoW was partially an open source game. Without UI mods it would never have gotten so popular.

I sometimes wonder if it's a kind of mentality issue, like the devs want to be the stars of the show and now allow the player to make their own content, tell their own story, make their own rules or create their own mods. They written their books, they want the game to be their medium to express themselves, instead of the player having a sandbox.

 

[Shaamaan]

Third party just adding functionalities that should already exist in the game if there was coherence within FD

This is partially true.

It's true for things like ship builders, lists of systems where ship components / ships can be purchased and when attempting to access prices for goods in stations (in a reasonable distance).

Some, however, go beyond the basic game requirements and, for example, can plot out a trade route with a single click of a button. Don't get me wrong - I do NOT think such sites are bad. But I do not think that THIS particular functionality should be part of the game itself.

 

[xondk]

This is partially true.

It's true for things like ship builders, lists of systems where ship components / ships can be purchased and when attempting to access prices for goods in stations (in a reasonable distance).

Some, however, go beyond the basic game requirements and, for example, can plot out a trade route with a single click of a button. Don't get me wrong - I do NOT think such sites are bad. But I do not think that THIS particular functionality should be part of the game itself.

Personally I am in a bit of a gray area regarding such things, personally I think there needs to be an easy way to note down stuff such as this available in game, and if not, then a third party program to ease input of this information is not a bad thing.
People need to discover stuff themselves and have easy access to what they do discover.
For example, market already has a way to compare prices but I guess rarely used because you can't simply select a "profit" filter, that shows potential profit to the known systems you have trade data access to.

However sites that remove the element of people having to find stuff on their own while understandable for say modules and such, things people would want to buy, I don't mind, seems fairly common that you'd be able to look up somewhere to find what you are looking for, like commercials or websites for stuff.
However where to turn a profit on trading and such, is one that can frustrate me a bit, since I feel part of the game is 'finding' the good spots yourself, people being able to simply look stuff up like this also removes the ability for people to run a 'hidden' good trade route found somewhere in space, because if someone that uploads info finds it, boom everyone will use it, no more hidden and value will go down with time.

So yeah...tricky issue for me.

 

[Boomer Kay]

lists of systems where ship components / ships can be purchased

They could also just make all ships and components available everywhere at the same price.
And you can also "hide" all your easter eggs in a basket on your kitchen table.

There's a slight (or huge) difference between a player-run, diverse community of 3rd party apps and just a system-side totally transparent market.

 

[Artie]

Well imho FD really screwed the pooch on this one. ED needs modding support and definitely an API.

WoW was partially an open source game. Without UI mods it would never have gotten so popular.

I sometimes wonder if it's a kind of mentality issue, like the devs want to be the stars of the show and now allow the player to make their own content, tell their own story, make their own rules or create their own mods. They written their books, they want the game to be their medium to express themselves, instead of the player having a sandbox.

I don't think it's "ego" issue. Creating in-game API for scripting and opening the game for modding is not an easy task, especially when stuff is still developed and improved in the core game. Also, you partially loose the control over things as people are usually very creative and can completely change the experience how the game is played (depending on the modding possibilities), which differentiate player base directly in the core game. And of course, there is a risk that it can be misused for exploits (once again, depending on the modding possibilities).

But, in the opposite - web API for accessing game information doesn't change the core game and is much simpler. For example, Zac is posting powerplay exports (in .csv) here each week, which is something that can be part of this kind of API. Data exports just needs to be better structured (.csv has its problems), some simple interface for requests created and there can be also unique access keys created for developers, which keep things more under control (they can monitor what each developer is doing and how often that way). It can provide a great service to the player community with much less effort.

 

[Falcon_D]

Hello,

I would like to express my support for the developers of these third party tools and their requests for an official support of an API.
I am a regular user of Inara, eddb.io, ED Market Connector and currently Trade Dangerous. Whenever I launch Elite : Dangerous, I launch and log into Inara. It does not matter if I'm trading, bounty hunting, mining, running CZs or exploring. Nearly everything I do in-game goes into my Commander's Log in Inara. Without Inara I would pretty much find E : D not as interesting as it gives me the feeling of keeping a Commander's log in a central computer (ala Star Trek.)

To me I keep comparing Elite : D and the third party apps to what Apple has done and is doing. Apple just built the iPhone with a few basic functions. But their genius was not in building a product, but in building an ecosystem that allowed 3rd party developers to build apps to extend and have fun with their product. Would anyone like to follow the success of Apple? (Oh, right Google did with the Android.) Hmm... Bethesda, Skyrim third party addons. Blizzard, World of Warcraft third party UI plugins...

To me, when I turn head look on and look around the cockpit of my Python or Cutter, I don't see any pen and paper. However, what I do see are consoles that seem to be either blank or (on my Python) showing some green monochrome text that I can't read. So how to I power these up or access these, I have to resort to my web browser. And low and behold, they connect to Galnet and bring up my Commaders log on Inara (Python, left monitor when looking forward), my trading route on eddb.io. One of my Pythons consoles (head look, turn right all the way, the middle one of the 3 black console screens), has just been upgraded to run Trade Dangerous. Now, THAT, is immersion.

Have fun, fly safe.
And a big thank you to Frontier and the 3rd Party App developers for all their efforts to bring out this great game. And the Commanders for this an interesting community. Wishing you all happy holidays and a better brighter New Year!!!

-Falcon Darkstar

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to mention the most obvious 3rd Party app, "Elite: Dangerous". An app developed by Frontier Developments to sit atop Microsoft's Windows, Apple's Mac OS and Microsoft's X-Box One, platforms.

 

[Darian]

You are hearing this because ED isn't played the way they expect or want it to be played. My guess is they want a type of space game where they can rush to get the best ship and equipment so they can go out and dominate the people who don't have the best ship and equipment.

There are games where you have to work hard to get somewhere and it is fun = no grind
There are games where you have to do the same over and over and it is boring and you have to do it a long time = example elite = grind
The art of designing an computer game is to make people work hard for no tangible reward (no money or goods of monetary worth) and they think it is fun.

Grind is always a matter of game design, it can be hard to get somewhere without grind, absolute, and games who have iWin buttons do not last long for obvious reasons.

You can design a game design where it is bloddy hard to earn money in and people consider it rewarding even earning little because it takes efford on many levels so the little they earn is "worth something" or you can make it like Elite where it is someway easy to make money but tyou have to do it so long and its easyness translates it into grind.

So the point is, you need to design your game in a way that offers reward without actually offering real reward and even in game terms only a little, but that all the time.

In terms of ships for example you could sell modules in "basic configuration" and every 100 creds you put more into "upgrading them" makes them a little better.
People earn credits and sink them into there modules and they become better little by little, and it is "rearding" all the time because for the small fractions choosen you can improve them they are flying a "better ship" every day.

Even if it is only a little bit better every day, you feel rewarded.

Make it so that you need 100mill or more to "improve" your ship and it becomes a grind because you need to fly around for two month with the "Same ship" until you have an improvement and it becomes a boring grind because the "Reward" is so faar in the future.

that is basic psychologie, humans in the wild are out for short term succes for survival, you do not plan longterm in an stoneage setting because you need to fill your belly NOW and not "better" in three weeks, for the simple reason you would be dead by then.

Longterm planning is something we humans first learn very recently in biological terms with the ability to preserve food and store it safe so we had the breathign space to thing a few weeks, month or years ahead.

Evolution is an thing of generations so out thinking did not catch up much yet, we are still programmed to work harder for the little bit more tomorrow than the very much more in a few weeks.

An game designer should take that into account or it becomes the famous grind.

Frontier does not, therefore grind.

 

[Boomer Kay]

An game designer should take that into account or it becomes the famous grind.

Frontier does not, therefore grind.

Haven't grinded .. grindered .. ground (?) a single second in the game yet.
If I'm bored with my current activity, I switch to a different one. Plenty of stuff to do.
Might not add to my virtual bank account at the same rate, but as a fixed weapon Cobra MK III is as much dogfight fun as it gets and a 2 mil Hauler (most expensive being the advanced scanner) a quite decent exploration ship, loads of diverse fun can be had long before any grind is required.

p.s. they could "kill" the grind completely by adding cooldowns and long restock times on every profitable activity, basically forcing players to more diverse activities. But why should they, if some players enjoy that kind of mindnumbingness?

 

[Meru]

To the ED devs:

CCP has gone though similar belly-aches with their API for EVE Online, and now the change process is established.
In case you are on speaking terms with them, they might have a few tips how to communicate API changes to third party developers.
CCP is the master of communication screw-ups - why not profit from their extensive experience?

 

[Shar]

There are games where you have to work hard to get somewhere and it is fun = no grind
There are games where you have to do the same over and over and it is boring and you have to do it a long time = example elite = grind
The art of designing an computer game is to make people work hard for no tangible reward (no money or goods of monetary worth) and they think it is fun.

Grind is always a matter of game design, it can be hard to get somewhere without grind, absolute, and games who have iWin buttons do not last long for obvious reasons.

You can design a game design where it is bloddy hard to earn money in and people consider it rewarding even earning little because it takes efford on many levels so the little they earn is "worth something" or you can make it like Elite where it is someway easy to make money but tyou have to do it so long and its easyness translates it into grind.

So the point is, you need to design your game in a way that offers reward without actually offering real reward and even in game terms only a little, but that all the time.

In terms of ships for example you could sell modules in "basic configuration" and every 100 creds you put more into "upgrading them" makes them a little better.
People earn credits and sink them into there modules and they become better little by little, and it is "rearding" all the time because for the small fractions choosen you can improve them they are flying a "better ship" every day.

Even if it is only a little bit better every day, you feel rewarded.

Make it so that you need 100mill or more to "improve" your ship and it becomes a grind because you need to fly around for two month with the "Same ship" until you have an improvement and it becomes a boring grind because the "Reward" is so faar in the future.

that is basic psychologie, humans in the wild are out for short term succes for survival, you do not plan longterm in an stoneage setting because you need to fill your belly NOW and not "better" in three weeks, for the simple reason you would be dead by then.

Longterm planning is something we humans first learn very recently in biological terms with the ability to preserve food and store it safe so we had the breathign space to thing a few weeks, month or years ahead.

Evolution is an thing of generations so out thinking did not catch up much yet, we are still programmed to work harder for the little bit more tomorrow than the very much more in a few weeks.

An game designer should take that into account or it becomes the famous grind.

Frontier does not, therefore grind.

Sooo do you support the 3rd party tools or not. i cant work it out from your psychoanalysis. I think if they had this game in the stone-age we all would have starved. I also wonder how Stonehenge would fit into this theory as it seems to have been planned. I think they had the Coriolis stone age monument planner.

 

[wolverine2710]

There are games where you have to work hard to get somewhere and it is fun = no grind
There are games where you have to do the same over and over and it is boring and you have to do it a long time = example elite = grind
The art of designing an computer game is to make people work hard for no tangible reward (no money or goods of monetary worth) and they think it is fun.

Grind is always a matter of game design, it can be hard to get somewhere without grind, absolute, and games who have iWin buttons do not last long for obvious reasons.

You can design a game design where it is bloddy hard to earn money in and people consider it rewarding even earning little because it takes efford on many levels so the little they earn is "worth something" or you can make it like Elite where it is someway easy to make money but tyou have to do it so long and its easyness translates it into grind.

So the point is, you need to design your game in a way that offers reward without actually offering real reward and even in game terms only a little, but that all the time.

In terms of ships for example you could sell modules in "basic configuration" and every 100 creds you put more into "upgrading them" makes them a little better.
People earn credits and sink them into there modules and they become better little by little, and it is "rearding" all the time because for the small fractions choosen you can improve them they are flying a "better ship" every day.

Even if it is only a little bit better every day, you feel rewarded.

Make it so that you need 100mill or more to "improve" your ship and it becomes a grind because you need to fly around for two month with the "Same ship" until you have an improvement and it becomes a boring grind because the "Reward" is so faar in the future.

that is basic psychologie, humans in the wild are out for short term succes for survival, you do not plan longterm in an stoneage setting because you need to fill your belly NOW and not "better" in three weeks, for the simple reason you would be dead by then.

Longterm planning is something we humans first learn very recently in biological terms with the ability to preserve food and store it safe so we had the breathign space to thing a few weeks, month or years ahead.

Evolution is an thing of generations so out thinking did not catch up much yet, we are still programmed to work harder for the little bit more tomorrow than the very much more in a few weeks.

An game designer should take that into account or it becomes the famous grind.

Frontier does not, therefore grind.

I've to admit good wording and something to think about.

Never the less I don't think this sort of discussion/analysis is what the OP had in mind when he created this thread.
Perhaps you can share with us your opinion about the open letter? Which after all is the topic of this thread. That would be appreciated.

 

[Morwo]

providing API for 3rd partz communitz tools is allways in every game an expense factor. my expirience is that games with small communitys (below 1million players) most likely will not provide API for players competition and community tools. this is regrettable because it's a reasonable expenditure. for an author like me an API allways is a more positive growing factor for the players community.

when i take a look at blizzard entertainment and world of warcraft, the API provides worldwide competition and kept the game going over a decade. they do not even bother about providing API.

 

[Strife]

First and Foremost, I am a big fan of Elite, ever since the mid 90's and Frontier.

I am simply adding my vote and support to the authors listed in the OP.
I generally support the availability of an API that 3rd party tools can access, I understand that currently in-game Trade data and Exploration data can be purchased with credits as part of the in game experience and so what might be made available through an API could be more limited than some would hope for, but still please consider allowing as much as possible without breaking the game as it is intended to be played.

There are a number of previous posts that cover explorers log, power play and factions. All good points if commodity information is a step too far.

Thanks for this great game.

 

[AnthorNet]

Hello Commanders,
First thanks for your support.

Please keep the topic as clean as possible. We do not want a war between pro/cons about whether third party tools are cheats or not.
We do not enforce their uses.

Some of you have express their feelings that we should not have an instant API of all the data, and I think we agree.
Actually the process we have now is perfectly suitable for us, and even add some gameplays into the game,
think it is some kind of cartographer work being done, where all the data, may not be all up to date.

You may think an API would be some real work from FD, but actually, a simple dump should not take much time to develop,
and we would be able to take care of it the way we already work.

I'll try to add some important quotes in the main topic once I got some time, so they don't fall into the limbo of all those pages.

To third party tools developer willing to sign the letter with us, simply drop me a PM.