Actually i can do more damage in a trader, i regular fortify at least 7 systems on my own.
O7
Open-Only in PP2.0?
- Thread starter August Lagrange
- Start date
O7
It sure can, but the same can happen in open - block lists are a thing, you know, and instancing has issues even without block lists.
But i get it, it's easier to say "i lost, they must be cheating" then admit either skill issues or the fact that the opposition coordinated better or put more effort in
It looks as if the days of '100% and done' are gone. If anything the new system looks like a blend of uncapped UM- so no mathematical safety is possible any longer.
These personal attacks are unnecessary.
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Er... we know about cheats because some did it in open. So that's a given. People can use cheats in solo to enable faster/safer accumulation of a PvE reward (merits, bounty vouchers, NPC murders, etc, etc) to affect the universe through powerplay or BGS.
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While you wouldn’t know it from the way most powers behave currently in PP 1.0, there is more to Powerplay hauling than fortifying. Whether or not we succeed, we at Winters like to keep that old school spirit alive.
It all boils down as to whether FD want PP to be inclusive and have the most players playing PP2 or whether its going to be exclusive and an activity for a niche group of players.
Time will tell as to which direction FD will go.
Time will tell as to which direction FD will go.
It also depends on whether they want to live up to the epic player vs player battles they hyped several times during the live stream, or whether they’re willing to let those words ring hollow.
From time to time we at FLC will get a new recruit who’s hesitant about our open only rule; 9 times out of 10 they find that Open isn’t the terrifying hellscape everyone told them it was, and that seeing your friends and fighting your enemies head to head actually makes the game more fun. Maybe it’s a fluke, though; we’ve only been doing this for 8.5 years.
If people are interested in PvP and there are mechanics that mean PvP is worthwhile, then those battles will still happen. They most certainly won't happen with people who have little interest in PvP, they won't be involved in epic PvP battles. At best they will run, at worst they will go boom in a few seconds. That's not epic.
Its not a terrifying hellscape and its silly to try and paint it as such. You can spend months in open in the bubble and barely see another player. And then, just at the moment you least expect it, some twonk comes along and opens up a ton of pain on you while you're just bimbling along doing something utterly mundane. And that's why many people just prefer to skip the open experience and enjoy the PG or solo experience.
I understand you enjoy open and many others do, but for many of us, we'd rather just chill and enjoy the PvE experience. I don't need to be constantly alert or on top form. I can run missions while drinking beer or whatever, and hey, if it all goes sideways because i'm steaming drunk, no problem. But with PvP, its all git gud luzer after they blast my drunken rear end into stardust and i'm like, meh, who needs this?
So, given the choice between "epic" space battles in open and having powerplay or just enjoying the game as is while i chill and do stuff to blow myself up on occasion and missing out on powerplay... yeah, ill take the latter thanks.
But hey, what do i know, i've only been playing ED for 10 years.
My experience with PP has been completely different to this. I mean, yeah, sometimes with the contested expansions you might have someone try to intercept you, but that's just part of the fun. You have to then make choices about how you approach it- after all, it's not just you. If someone's blocking a system in PP, that's the whole community's problem, and you deal with it as a community. Usually, when I post for our PVPers to help, I get a response pretty quickly.
How much of that time has been PP? The vast majority of my time spent playing the game has been with the FLC playing in Open, and I've enjoyed every minute. It seems that not just you but others here aren't really talking about PowerPlay specifically, but the game as a whole, playing as an individual having to deal with gankers in Deciat rather than the specific circumstances which are in question here.
I would like to look at this issue a little differently. Why are we only looking at open only and / or everything?
How do we not approach the matter according to the principle of risk and reward?
My suggestion would be:
Commanders who play in open Power Play 2.0 get the same benefits as the commanders in solo or private group, but the points earned for the power count 3 times or 4 times in open.
This way, everyone has the opportunity to take part in Power Play 2.0, but those who dare to play in Open have a higher risk but receive considerably more in return.
This would not exclude anyone, but also reward those who take the difficult path.
O7
Cmd Zrakamir
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
How do we not approach the matter according to the principle of risk and reward?
My suggestion would be:
Commanders who play in open Power Play 2.0 get the same benefits as the commanders in solo or private group, but the points earned for the power count 3 times or 4 times in open.
This way, everyone has the opportunity to take part in Power Play 2.0, but those who dare to play in Open have a higher risk but receive considerably more in return.
This would not exclude anyone, but also reward those who take the difficult path.
O7
Cmd Zrakamir
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
I think we should consider PowerPlay to be something which you do not for any tangible reward in terms of weapons or even credits, but something you do to be a part of a community advocating for a goal according to your values. If it were a reasonably profitable thing to do along the lines of other means of income, sure, great, but I want people that do PowerPlay to be invested in the outcome and being part of the community. After all, it's supposed to be a politics simulator, and politics is inherently social. We currently have a lot of people doing things that make no strategic sense for the powers they're pledged to (especially Aisling), because they want the modules. That incentive is disruptive and those people aren't part of the organised communities.
People don't always want to be part of an organised community but do their own thing.
Many like me have a good understanding of PP(1) and how the BGS works and casually do our own thing.
I would chose systems to fortify (that's my thing as i can include trading in there) and do several by myself.
PP2 Must give a financial incentive, if you want to do anything fast in the current PP its going to cost you lots of credits.
Fortifying an average system with a trigger around the 2600 mark costs over 32million credits for a 'credits earned' of 320K.
Yes im paying to speed up the process but otherwise even at Rank 5 i would run out of coffee.
For new players without 20 Billion on a Carrier its not worthwhile, so yes i agree it should be for folks that enjoy PP but there also needs to be a reward.
I hope they do away with the click click click stocking system even if they charge a lump sum to fill the hold.
Im guessing (hoping) that they do away with this system altogether and i can just run missions to help.
O7
If you don't want to be part of an organised community, you should probably do something that doesn't affect others. If you do want to affect others, you need to be a part of a conversation. You have a responsibility to those around you.
Personally I find the best part of PowerPlay is working with others. I like getting involved with all the systems we use to track the effort we put in and make decisions on how we can make the best use of that effort. I like teaching others how PowerPlay works, and winging with them to show them how to effectively wing with others for undermining. Maybe you'd enjoy interacting with others if you gave it a chance.
Why? Everything in this game affects others, unless I retreat to a backwater corner of civilization or just plain stop playing. This sounds like gatekeeping to me - join my community or stop doing what you do. Maybe I like the idea of Powerplay, supporting a certain power and spreading the wealth around the galaxy. That doesn't mean I have to be part of an organized community to do it. In fact maybe that sounds like the least fun thing to do for me?
Again, why? Last I checked members of the Pilot's Federation were ruthless mercenaries in a cuthroat galaxy. Nowhere does it say I have any responsibility, it says "blaze your own trail". And that trail might include spreading my Power's love around without listening to the mandate of some self-elected higher commuinity.
That's fine, but don't force that playstyle on others.
Seems like @Darrack has a good grip on how this works, and prefers not to do it organized with others. People should respect that instead of trying to coax them to become "part of a community". Some people plain old just don't want that.
The main point of the debate about open only power play is the concept of fair play.
Let's say you're in the middle of playing a chess game with someone. Then say there's a knock at the door and you have to get up to go answer it. Whatever it is is distracting enough to completely absorb your attention while you're dealing with it. Now while you're at the door, your opponent moves a couple of their pieces to put themselves in a better position. When you return from the door, you reacquaint yourself with the board and maybe have a feeling that something is off, maybe you just play on, but the game takes much longer or perhaps you lose because of the changes made while you were away from the board.
Now with power play as it currently is, when you and your opponent are playing in open, you can see each other's pieces, you have a way to counter whatever they might do provided you have the skill / knowledge to do so.
When your opponent does things like undermining or expansion in solo, it's like the opponent moving the chess pieces while you're at the door. You have no way of knowing what's going on, you have no way to counter what they're doing, the game is no longer fair.
It's the unfair and unbalanced nature of this which causes the argument to be relevant and why those of us who force ourselves to play fair and intentionally avoid exploits, afk / scripted grinding and stay in open tend to feel so strongly about the argument.
Now ideally the best solution for this is for FDev to design PP 2.0 so that it closes those holes, that the system is fair and balanced, that there is no action that does not have a method for countering regardless of what mode a player is in. If a mode requires players to face each other in order to support fair play, then it should require players to be in open. If it is counterable through a mechanism and people's efforts regardless of mode is represented in the UI in a visible and plain way that clearly shows that countering is necessary, then restricting it to open isn't necessary.
As power play currently is, the only way to counter some actions is to directly intervene with the player. If it's impossible to do that, then the game is not fair. In case someone has it in mind that NPCs are the counterbalance, let's be honest, outside of the Thargoids, NPCs are not a significant threat to anyone who's been playing the game for any significant amount of time. NPCs are not sufficient countermeasure, they are endorphin generaters to let the player feel competent and successful as they are erased while the player strives for their goal.
We don't know entirely how PP2 will work and if it will end up fixing these problems, but we know that no one is perfect and no piece of software was ever written that didn't have a bug in it somewhere in its first incarnation. These discussions are an attempt to provide enough context and visibility to them to make better decisions around things that related to potentially one sided or exploitable gameplay and, hopefully, prevent them from happening.
So no, by definition, utilizing one of the unbalanced mechanics to 'win' for your side in a manner the game framework / mechanics don't prevent may not meet everyone's definition of cheating, it may not be something FDev will publicly do anything about, however it is still unfair game play, and I don't see anything wrong with striving towards correcting that to make the game equally enjoyable and fair for everyone.
Let's say you're in the middle of playing a chess game with someone. Then say there's a knock at the door and you have to get up to go answer it. Whatever it is is distracting enough to completely absorb your attention while you're dealing with it. Now while you're at the door, your opponent moves a couple of their pieces to put themselves in a better position. When you return from the door, you reacquaint yourself with the board and maybe have a feeling that something is off, maybe you just play on, but the game takes much longer or perhaps you lose because of the changes made while you were away from the board.
Now with power play as it currently is, when you and your opponent are playing in open, you can see each other's pieces, you have a way to counter whatever they might do provided you have the skill / knowledge to do so.
When your opponent does things like undermining or expansion in solo, it's like the opponent moving the chess pieces while you're at the door. You have no way of knowing what's going on, you have no way to counter what they're doing, the game is no longer fair.
It's the unfair and unbalanced nature of this which causes the argument to be relevant and why those of us who force ourselves to play fair and intentionally avoid exploits, afk / scripted grinding and stay in open tend to feel so strongly about the argument.
Now ideally the best solution for this is for FDev to design PP 2.0 so that it closes those holes, that the system is fair and balanced, that there is no action that does not have a method for countering regardless of what mode a player is in. If a mode requires players to face each other in order to support fair play, then it should require players to be in open. If it is counterable through a mechanism and people's efforts regardless of mode is represented in the UI in a visible and plain way that clearly shows that countering is necessary, then restricting it to open isn't necessary.
As power play currently is, the only way to counter some actions is to directly intervene with the player. If it's impossible to do that, then the game is not fair. In case someone has it in mind that NPCs are the counterbalance, let's be honest, outside of the Thargoids, NPCs are not a significant threat to anyone who's been playing the game for any significant amount of time. NPCs are not sufficient countermeasure, they are endorphin generaters to let the player feel competent and successful as they are erased while the player strives for their goal.
We don't know entirely how PP2 will work and if it will end up fixing these problems, but we know that no one is perfect and no piece of software was ever written that didn't have a bug in it somewhere in its first incarnation. These discussions are an attempt to provide enough context and visibility to them to make better decisions around things that related to potentially one sided or exploitable gameplay and, hopefully, prevent them from happening.
So no, by definition, utilizing one of the unbalanced mechanics to 'win' for your side in a manner the game framework / mechanics don't prevent may not meet everyone's definition of cheating, it may not be something FDev will publicly do anything about, however it is still unfair game play, and I don't see anything wrong with striving towards correcting that to make the game equally enjoyable and fair for everyone.
Just a few hours of investigating it only to realize the mechanics were absoloutely rubbish, boring, and a never ending grind of running to stay in the same place.
Not to mention how being pledged also impacts your non-PP related gameplay.
Even when not pledged, i found PP to be an annoyance, when you'd drop into a location and half the NPC ships were PP ships, thereby reducing the spawns of pirates to shoot as the PP ships take up NPC slots.
PP1 was an unmitigated disaster of gameplay and i have no idea how anyone found it fun to play.
I'm hoping PP2 is much more fun to be involved with.
PP V1 has super thin PvE, thats why its dull- what FD did was transpose current day (for 2015) mechanics and spread them out over a bubble wide CZ. Since NPC persistence and consistency fall apart at those scales it was the Open part which filled that gap and for many that provided the fun team v team Open experience.
V2 is much more decentralized, so there is less need seemingly for super rigid groups. The irony of V1 is / was that while it was intended to be run via majority rule / best intentions, the maths behind the feature made only a few moves (in the mid / late cycles post 100) valid- you needed strict control to design weaponised expansions, control 5C as well as guide / be aware of new players who via good intentions could mess up everything.
So in some ways PP V2 is being true to the original intent.
I'd agree with this and thus why I support passing the modules to Tech Brokers, particularly if they are going down the open only route.
Some players like 'Epic PvP battles ' or getting through blockades, but that isn't everyone's perspective.
I like wandering amongst the fringe systems of the Bubble but a glance at my contacts list tells me it's not everyone's cup of tea.
If you want to have an inclusive system you'll need to present as being inclusive and not Keep Out signs.