Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Rubbernuke]

As already mentioned, in Open certainly. Noting that not all players play in Open.

Solo and Private Groups have no benefits that are not available in Open - other than fewer players - in a game where other players are an optional extra.

It was not a reference to what was but what could possibly be.

No. NPCs tended to get repaired on system change (possibly just instance change).

Who knows, they don't exist yet.

So thats a no, then. NPCs were not consistent, lacked context and simply 'there'.

As already mentioned, in Open certainly. Noting that not all players play in Open.

The point was for Open, why keep on about other modes?

Solo and Private Groups have no benefits that are not available in Open - other than fewer players - in a game where other players are an optional extra.

So solo has peer level NPCs like in Open? Or that PG has a wing bonus for no extra effort?

Other players are an extra obstacle in a game feature about overcoming obstacles......

 

[Rubbernuke]

Which mixes what is with what might be.

NPCs are, I expect, highly unlikely to offer the level of challenge that some want them to to participants in general - especially when the benchmark for risk seems to be risk free players in G5 murderboats.

If NPCs don't scale to 'ace' level (as in Top 10 level) to attenuate outcomes for the strategic meta game, then Open will be the next best thing and should be rewarded as such.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The point was for Open, why keep on about other modes?

Simply because Open is not the only mode from which to engage in old Powerplay, nor will it be the only mode for Powerplay 2.0.

So solo has peer level NPCs like in Open? Or that PG has a wing bonus for no extra effort?

Other players are an extra obstacle in a game feature about overcoming obstacles......

The fact that other players are optional means that those optional players don't get to set the challenge of the game for players who choose not to instance with them. It's Frontier's job to set the PvE challenge of the game - and as Powerplay is not an Open only game feature it remains as a PvE game feature for those who choose to engage in it in the other game modes.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If NPCs don't scale to 'ace' level (as in Top 10 level) to attenuate outcomes for the strategic meta game, then Open will be the next best thing and should be rewarded as such.

Open is only the "best thing" for those who enjoy PvP - not all players enjoy PvP - and other players don't get to set the game's difficulty for those who don't choose to instance with them.

 

[Darkfyre99]

So how would they know where they were going?

Have you not ever encountered a pirate a thousand light years away from the Bubble when you're out mining in an unexplored system? Spawn rules dictate where NPCs were be. Change the spawn rules to be more aggressive, and they'll be where players are.

Did they have ships that were suited to attack?

Spawn rules dictate how powerful NPCs ships will be. Change the spawn rules, and the NPCs will be better armed then they are currently.

If these ships were damaged, did they magically repair themselves?

In my experience, yes. They sometimes even have completely different ships, just with the same Pilot's name. NPCs aren't as persistent as they could be, primarily because they run on the hosting player's computer, not Frontier's servers.

The other aspect is that instanced NPCs are lacking context, trying to approximate player actions through abstraction. You hobble a pursuer they stay hobbled until fixed.

You can't have it both ways, not with the way the game is designed. Either NPCs need to be common enough to be a problem for when opposing players aren't there, which includes nearly all the time in time in Open, or you're right back to where you started. If you want NPCs to actually have context and be effective enough to simulate another player, then Frontier needs to be the one hosting every single instance in the game. The game needs to move to a client/server networking solution.

Which Frontier isn't doing, or ever likely to do. They're going for as low cost as possible when it comes to running the game, after all, which is why we also have the modes. It does a marveous job at suppressing certain kinds of behavior which drives paying players away from the game, and doesn't cost them a thing.

Powerplay is about hunting and disrupting, as well as you avoiding that disruption. If two modes don't have that aspect, is it 'the same'?

Nope. Powerplay is about doing PvE activities. "Hunting and disrupting" other players is an optional extra for those who enjoy that kind of thing. But doing so is inefficient compared to simply ignoring other players as much as possible.

Not nearly as much fun, though.

Its is as I said, people looking at the various modes, what they offer and choosing the right one for them. Until you offer it, how would we know? And if it was offered, what slight is it on other modes other than the perceived ones by you?

Personally, my primary concern is that giving a global bonus to Open is going to encourage the same kind of unsportsmanlike behavior I've seen in other games, which is not in any way my definition of fun. The only reason why you don't see that kind of behavior in Open right now is because everyone is there voluntarily, which leaves those most prone to acting like the emissions from the southern oriface of a northern facing bull to play other modes, or most likely quit playing altogether.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Simply because Open is not the only mode from which to engage in old Powerplay, nor will it be the only mode for Powerplay 2.0.

Which is relevant how when the issue being talked about is inside PP?

The fact that other players are optional means that those optional players don't get to set the challenge of the game for players who choose not to instance with them. It's Frontier's job to set the PvE challenge of the game - and as Powerplay is not an Open only game feature it remains as a PvE game feature for those who choose to engage in it in the other game modes.

Optional rewards for optional difficulty- sounds fine to me. You take the baseline PvE difficulty then you stick to baseline rewards.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Open is only the "best thing" for those who enjoy PvP - not all players enjoy PvP - and other players don't get to set the game's difficulty for those who don't choose to instance with them.

No, its other players who can actually challenge other players. Its immaterial if they are NPCs or players in the end just as long as it is there.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is relevant how when the issue being talked about is inside PP?

What is "inside PP" in this context?

Optional rewards for optional difficulty- sounds fine to me. You take the baseline PvE difficulty then you stick to baseline rewards.

It often does to those who would prefer that those in Solo and Private Groups be banished from particular game features but would make do with them being penalised instead.

 

[Robert Maynard]

No, its other players who can actually challenge other players. Its immaterial if they are NPCs or players in the end just as long as it is there.

Entirely optional other players.... who still don't get to set the game's difficulty for players other than those who choose to instance with them.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Have you not ever encountered a pirate a thousand light years away from the Bubble when you're out mining in an unexplored system? Spawn rules dictate where NPCs were be. Change the spawn rules to be more aggressive, and they'll be where players are.

Spawn rules dictate how powerful NPCs ships will be. Change the spawn rules, and the NPCs will be better armed then they are currently.

In my experience, yes. They sometimes even have completely different ships, just with the same Pilot's name. NPCs aren't as persistent as they could be, primarily because they run on the hosting player's computer, not Frontier's servers.

Which Frontier isn't doing, or ever likely to do. They're going for as low cost as possible when it comes to running the game, after all, which is why we also have the modes. It does a marveous job at suppressing certain kinds of behavior which drives paying players away from the game, and doesn't cost them a thing.

So again, NPCs for the concept of chases over multiple systems are crap and lack context. NPCs won't understand why a player is doing what they are doing.

You can't have it both ways, not with the way the game is designed. Either NPCs need to be good enough to be a problem for when opposing players aren't there, which includes nearly all the time in time in Open, or you're right back to where you started. If you want NPCs to actually have context and be effective enough to simulate another player, then Frontier needs to be the one hosting every single instance in the game. The game needs to move to a client/server networking solution.

There is a reason why I say players as NPCs, or NPCs as players- in V1 at least NPCs roving about are rarer than other players. V1s design does not suit how NPCs work in ED, given that average PP traversal is across many instances and areas of context / territory.

V2 seems to be shifting away from this, so we will have to see what they bring, such as PP USS and properly contextualised security (such as in strongholds).

Nope. Powerplay is about doing PvE activities. "Hunting and disrupting" other players is an optional extra for those who enjoy that kind of thing. But doing so is inefficient compared to simply ignoring other players as much as possible. Not nearly as much fun, though.

No, what you forget is the NPCs are supposed to be doing the hunting and disrupting outside of the PvE areas- something players do. And as I've said before, powers are asynchronous with each other- nothing is neatly matched.

Personally, my primary concern is that giving a global bonus to Open is going to encourage the same kind of unsportsmanlike behavior I've seen in other games, which is not in any way my definition of fun. The only reason why you don't see that kind of behavior in Open right now is because everyone is there voluntarily, which leaves those most prone to acting like the emissions from the southern oriface of a northern facing bull to play other modes, or most likely quit playing altogether.

We won't know until its tried.

 

[Rubbernuke]

What is "inside PP" in this context?

Sorry, was typing too fast. I meant 'inside open'

It often does to those who would prefer that those in Solo and Private Groups be banished from particular game features but would make do with them being penalised instead.

Games offer different difficulties- shocker

 

[Rubbernuke]

Entirely optional other players.... who still don't get to set the game's difficulty for players other than those who choose to instance with them.

While still posing a very real threat....in a feature that rewards being faster and more efficient.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sorry, was typing too fast. I meant 'inside open'

In which case it's entirely relevant as Open is but one of three game modes from which Powerplay old and new can be affected.

Games offer different difficulties- shocker

Indeed. Noting that many have difficulty sliders, or PvP & PvE servers, or, in this case, the difficulty of other players is an optional extra.

While still posing a very real threat....in a feature that rewards being faster and more efficient.

A very real threat to whom?

 

[Darkfyre99]

So again, NPCs for the concept of chases over multiple systems are crap and lack context. NPCs won't understand why a player is doing what they are doing.

That shouldn't matter as long as they're doing what they need to do.

There is a reason why I say players as NPCs, or NPCs as players- in V1 at least NPCs roving about are rarer than other players. V1s design does not suit how NPCs work in ED, given that average PP traversal is across many instances and areas of context / territory.

V2 seems to be shifting away from this, so we will have to see what they bring, such as PP USS and properly contextualised security (such as in strongholds).

On this we agree.

No, what you forget is the NPCs are supposed to be doing the hunting and disrupting outside of the PvE areas- something players do. And as I've said before, powers are asynchronous with each other- nothing is neatly matched.

I think you mean that NPCs don't do a very good job at doing this. And quite frankly, in my experience most players also don't do a very good job at doing this either, assuming you're cooperating with your own destruction like many players seem to do. If that's the case, then even NPCs can be problem.

We won't know until its tried.

True. But frequently it's less, "We won't know until it's tried," and more, "I'm sure that this time it'll actually work!"

 

[Jockey79]

Simply because Open is not the only mode from which to engage in old Powerplay, nor will it be the only mode for Powerplay 2.0.

The fact that other players are optional means that those optional players don't get to set the challenge of the game for players who choose not to instance with them. It's Frontier's job to set the PvE challenge of the game - and as Powerplay is not an Open only game feature it remains as a PvE game feature for those who choose to engage in it in the other game modes.

If the different modes still remain a pointless argument for some when it comes to PP. Perhaps it should be made Solo Only.
That way Frontier can control the difficulty better and it still remains the indirect PvP system it was meant to be.
Plus no one has "extra risk" or any other nonsense people keep complaining about if everyone plays it in Solo Mode.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Indeed. Noting that many have difficulty sliders, or PvP & PvE servers, or, in this case, the difficulty of other players is an optional extra.

And as such should have some level of reward since its more than usual.

A very real threat to whom?

Other players. I know this is a shock, but not everyone is glued to an FDL seat.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And as such should have some level of reward since its more than usual.

It's interesting that Frontier chose not to, isn't it?

Other players. I know this is a shock, but not everyone is glued to an FDL seat.

What threat do the optional other players represent to those who don't choose to play among them?

 

[Rubbernuke]

That shouldn't matter as long as they're doing what they need to do.

On this we agree.

True, the issue that has to be addressed in V2 (with varied PvE it might be) is that you have NPCs for reasons and not complete scattergun like instances. Its why I hope NPCS in places like strongholds are actually aggressive and potent enough to make life difficult.

I think you mean that NPCs don't do a very good job at doing this. And quite frankly, in my experience most players also don't do a very good job at doing this either, assuming you're cooperating with your own destruction like many players seem to do. If that's the case, then even NPCs can be problem.

Well you said that Powerplay is solely PvE and players were the extra. Its why Open was mooted because its swapping NPCs for players. And YMMV regards effectiveness as my run ins with others have been far different, with highly co-ordinated battles through cycles.

True. But frequently it's less, "We won't know until it's tried," and more, "I'm sure that this time it'll actually work!"

Well from what other posters have said it works just fine elsewhere.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's interesting that Frontier chose not to, isn't it?

Well they wanted to, the problem being it was overlooked by Open and that it only makes sense with Powerplay.

What threat do the optional other players represent to those who don't choose to play among them?

Open is open, although I have no problem for people blocking non pledges (so its just Powerplay). Personally its open and whatever PMF, power or random comes my way.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

No. NPCs tended to get repaired on system change (possibly just instance change).

AFAIK, its on instance change still.

In some cases, with some missions, they can even be flying a completely different ship if you log out of the game and return. I've had a Cutter turn into a Corvette after running from a mission and returning later.

Hmm... maybe the NPCs are emulating players!